Seeing, Recognising & Maintaining One's Enlightening Potential

[Bud Jetsun]

From body language analysis, he spoke form non-experiential borrowed wisdom and a borrowed river metaphor until ~3min 5seconds into the video.  His advise about sometimes it being too intense and having to just dodge it and think about other sensation or breath exhibited body language of being genuine and experiential. 

 

The beauty of forgiveness is no need to waste potentially useful meditation time dodging facing it through focus on breath or something else. This lets a being rest in whole awareness because there are no lurking aspects which one has not already confronted and examined/illuminated to dispel the fear and sever the bonds and develop sincere gratitude for all life experience. 

 

Unlimited Love,

-Bud

[Limahong]

48 minutes ago, Limahong said:

As TDB is a Taoist forum, can we bring in the Taoist perspective when it comes to forgiveness?

 

Hi C T,

 

Whilst waiting for an answer from you to my above question, I am now watching this video:

 

 

- LimA

[C T]

The Dalai Lama is free to speak and offer opinions on any subject under the sun, and he does so with much wisdom; however, this has no bearing on the point that forgiveness is not a Buddhist teaching. He often sought to find similarities among the various faiths- thats how he is, amicable, reassuring, and easy-going. 

[C T]

40 minutes ago, Bud Jetsun said:

From body language analysis, he spoke form non-experiential borrowed wisdom and a borrowed river metaphor until ~3min 5seconds into the video.  His advise about sometimes it being too intense and having to just dodge it and think about other sensation or breath exhibited body language of being genuine and experiential. 

 

The beauty of forgiveness is no need to waste potentially useful meditation time dodging facing it through focus on breath or something else. This lets a being rest in whole awareness because there are no lurking aspects which one has not already confronted and examined/illuminated to dispel the fear and sever the bonds and develop sincere gratitude for all life experience. 

 

Unlimited Love,

-Bud

 

There is no beauty nor ugliness in forgiveness. But you are free to think otherwise, and many do conform with your view. 

 

Forgiveness - Its a way of pacifying mental turmoil that is dualistic in nature because it requires some form or other of judgement, and therefore does not accord with the Dhamma. 

 

Meditation is fundamental to Buddhism. If you wish to negate its usefulness, its ok, but thats no longer Buddhism. 

 

I dont know how else to make this clearer. 

[blue eyed snake]

I do not know about words, or definitions, or traditions, I'm just...BES and will probably  stay to be that.

 

But I remember how, years ago during a meditation-like experience I 'met' the assaulter, the fear of pain and death that I had always ducked out of. For plainly that was his goal, rape and kill.

When this emotion flooded through me it came to me that it was just stupid, to fear something that was so long ago. When the emotions/fear disappeared something opened up in my heart and I felt pity for this man. I felt his loneliness, his anger, his emotions                 and forgiveness just happened.

Then it went further, to my mum, who essentially told me just to forget about the experience. That has, clearly, hurt me more than the assaulter did. The assaulter was just a stranger, my mum...well was my mum, and she denied (me to process) my pain and fear. In one swoop I felt her underlying fears/emotions/repressed things of her life too   and more forgiveness happened.

Many years before this I had ' forgiven' my mum on a rational basic, my brain was aware of her and her history, but from that moment on It was the heart that had opened , to her, to many people ( and experiences)

 

I did not ' do' that, I did not strive for it, I did not even know something like that could happen.. It just happened. And something in my heart that was closed opened up and for that I'm grateful.

This opening has been good for me, ( and for those around me ) whether you call it forgiveness, or compassion is not of much of interest to me.

 

but it's interesting to read what you all think of it, my question seems to have raised quite a debate 

[Bud Jetsun]

Meditation can serve as successful distraction from whatever may be causing the river to flow, or the source of the river can be explored and made calm through genuine appreciation for every drop. 

 

If Buddhist temples were flooding the world with an abundant supply of enlightened beings, clinging to that method would seem sensible.  In visiting many dozens of temples and finding only rusty borrowed wisdom from past beings shared by those fearing exploratory discussion of the nature of reality, it becomes clear why the Buddha told them not to write his words and not to make a fixed doctrine as this would lead to loss of awareness of the real and deviation from living the Dao which can not be rigid or defined. 

 

Unlimited Love,

-Bud

[senseless virtue]

13 minutes ago, C T said:

does not accord with the Dhamma.

"To avoid all evil, to cultivate good, and to purify one's mind—this is the teaching of the Buddhas" (Dhammapada 183).

 

Is forgiveness avoiding evil? Yes. Is forgiveness cultivating good? Yes. Is it purification of one's mind? No, if we understand that term in the pure non-dual sense. Yet forgiveness does facilitate precepts and necessary conditions for training leading to mind purification happening at all.

 

I think we need to make a difference between relative vision and absolute vision. Buddha's teaching, the Dhamma, promotes right discernment for relative experiences which we continue to constantly live through in our reincarnate state. The Enlightenment is not about dismissing basic moral tenets or becoming detached from them, but embodying them and using their merits to the fullest to the benefit of all. Isn't this just essential bodhichitta?

[senseless virtue]

Could a Buddha ever refuse to forgive someone? Of course a Buddha wouldn't need forgiveness for personal benefit, but it would remain the right thing to do. The same deal for thankfulness and other benevolent and self-sacrificing moral dispositions.

 

There is always merit in doing the right thing. When an Enlightened person does so, the good action's benefits overflow and rain upon all the sentient beings because a Buddha is already pure of such attachments.

 

To me it reads a bit foolish to downplay the importance of right morality and doing good in the work and teachings of Buddhas. If a Buddha doesn't forgive everone and be merciful to everybody, then who does these acts of complete selflessness and non-judgementality? A samsaric being?

[C T]

56 minutes ago, virtue said:

Could a Buddha ever refuse to forgive someone? Of course a Buddha wouldn't need forgiveness for personal benefit, but it would remain the right thing to do. The same deal for thankfulness and other benevolent and self-sacrificing moral dispositions.

 

There is always merit in doing the right thing. When an Enlightened person does so, the good action's benefits overflow and rain upon all the sentient beings because a Buddha is already pure of such attachments.

 

To me it reads a bit foolish to downplay the importance of right morality and doing good in the work and teachings of Buddhas. If a Buddha doesn't forgive everone and be merciful to everybody, then who does these acts of complete selflessness and non-judgementality? A samsaric being?

 

I appreciate what is being rationalised above, and I have already mentioned in a few replies that it is fine if one wishes to adopt and apply a concept (or many concepts) that helps to shape one's morality and ethical considerations in the course of one's life. There are many Christian/Hindu/Jain/Sikh/Islamic precepts and philosophical views that are also extremely useful in the quest to achieve various spiritual and mundane goals, but within an emic perspective (of Buddhist philosophy) the idea and usefulness of forgiveness is not stressed anywhere. This does not mean its not helpful as a means to help one cope with life's many sufferings, but in this context, my point is clear - the Buddha did not teach such an approach towards the elimination of suffering. I don't get why this cannot be accepted. By all means, if one finds usefulness in practicing forgiveness do not abandon that path - but its incorrect to attempt any rationalisation that doing so accords with the Dhamma because the nature of forgiveness happens to be one that does not depart from dualistic considerations. In other words, its practice does not ultimately liberate, and therefore it is not taught as a means towards that end. 

 

One may adopt the practice of mercy and compassion, but to say that one has the capability to forgive implies a kind of superior thinking that may even be tinged with subtle arrogance, and as for Buddhist practitioners, to hold to the idea that one can be forgiven of wrongdoings then compels other unnecessary and complex considerations to arise, like deference to gods, higher powers, emotional placations, and so on. 

 

The teachings are clear that we are heirs to our karma, and that each individual being must take responsibility to work for their own emancipation. Not even buddhas can reduce the ownership of karma by one iota, let alone forgive anyone of their transgressions. 

 

 

[Jeff]

I also get what CT is saying.  It is also logically consistent with the concept of not being able to cross mindstreams or "directly" help others. Very interesting as it highlights some major differences between the concept of a buddha and an Immortal/Sage or Christ.

 

Thank you everyone for the discussion.  

 

[silent thunder]

I've loved reading this dialogue. 

Thanks to all.

[C T]

There are three ways in which we can experience these two truths:

 

1. At the stage of ordinary beings, appearances are regarded as inherently real and are perceived with grasping. This is called the incorrect relative.

 

2. At the stage of noble beings, appearances are seen to be deceptive and illusory, and are perceived without any grasping. This is called the correct relative.

 

3. At the stage of buddhahood, there are no ordinary appearances or non-appearances whatsoever, and any concerns about grasping or non-grasping no longer applies. This is absolute seeing.

 

To put it another way, the first stage has both appearance and grasping, the middle stage has mere appearance without grasping, and at the final stage there is neither appearance nor grasping.

 

Although we may understand the natural condition of all knowable phenomena in this way, if we do not understand the natural condition of the knowing subject, which is our own mind, all phenomena will remain objects of knowledge and this will not serve as an antidote to mental afflictions. In fact, this realization itself will become a cause for feeling arrogant and conceited, and only serve to reinforce the sense of a personal self. This is why we need to recognize the actual nature of that where realization arise.

 

~ Patrul Rinpoche ~ 

[Limahong]

45 minutes ago, silent thunder said:

I've loved reading this dialogue. 

 

Hi Creighton,

 

In the 'Power of Forgiveness' video (at about 57 minutes) Dalai Lama said this:

 

"I am Buddhist but I should not develop attachments to Buddhism because... then your mind becomes biased... and you cannot see the values of other traditions".

 

Period.

 

- Anand

Edited January 24, 2018 by Limahong
Correct errors.

[Bud Jetsun]

1 hour ago, C T said:

 

The teachings are clear that we are heirs to our karma, and that each individual being must take responsibility to work for their own emancipation. Not even buddhas can reduce the ownership of karma by one iota, let alone forgive anyone of their transgressions. 

 

 

 

 

Complete agreement, and perhaps this highlights the mis-communication or confusion. 

 

The forgiveness is not for anyone else and doesn't serve anyone else any function at all unless they also choose to forgive themselves. The forgiveness is a gift only to oneself alone, so rather than standing watching the river of emotion, or trying to dam up the river of emotion, one may head up-stream to it's source and turn off the faucets creating it one by one until the water becomes a calm and lucid splendor rather than something to fear or avoid. 

 

Unlimited Love,

-Bud

[C T]

I'd much rather head downstream where all the rivers ultimately meet. 

[Limahong]

9 minutes ago, C T said:

I'd much rather head downstream where all the rivers ultimately meet

 

Are some of the rivers downstream potentially polluted?

Edited January 24, 2018 by Limahong
Enhance ...

[C T]

9 minutes ago, Limahong said:

 

Are some of the rivers downstream polluted?

 

I suppose its the same here where some threads get polluted as well. 

[C T]

 

[Limahong]

8 minutes ago, C T said:

I suppose its the same here where some threads get polluted as well. 

 

My focus is Mingyur Rinpoche's river - not TDB threads.

[C T]

5 minutes ago, Limahong said:

 

My focus is Mingyur Rinpoche's river - not TDB threads.

 

Its good you are still reflecting on that. He's a very advanced and well-respected teacher across all the different Himalayan Buddhist lineages. Definitely authentic and unpolluted. 

[Limahong]

3 minutes ago, C T said:

Its good you are still reflecting on that.

 

I am not reflecting but being cautious when it comes to any river. Why? I cannot swim. Period.

[C T]

6 minutes ago, Limahong said:

 

I am not reflecting but being cautious when it comes to any river. Why? I cannot swim. Period.

 

Caution is also good. 

[Bud Jetsun]

24 minutes ago, C T said:

I'd much rather head downstream where all the rivers ultimately meet. 

 

 

A stilled river mixes and grows to become indistinguishable from ocean.  :-)

 

In compassion for all beings liberation, it is equally dualistic to cling to no forgiveness principle as it is to cling to forgiveness principle being required, as both as knowing either is ego-constructed delusion alone while awareness burns on with indifference. 

 

Embracing the whole of the real without delusion is an adequately formidable task, it requires no pre-conceived limiting notions of what may or may not be helpful towards it's attainment and persistence. 

 

Unlimited Love,

-Bud

[Limahong]

3 minutes ago, C T said:

Caution is also good.

 

.

[C T]

5 minutes ago, Bud Jetsun said:

 

 

A stilled river mixes and grows to become indistinguishable from ocean.  :-)

 

In compassion for all beings liberation, it is equally dualistic to cling to no forgiveness principle as it is to cling to forgiveness principle being required, as both as knowing either is ego-constructed delusion alone while awareness burns on with indifference. 

 

Embracing the whole of the real without delusion is an adequately formidable task, it requires no pre-conceived limiting notions of what may or may not be helpful towards it's attainment and persistence. 

 

Unlimited Love,

-Bud

 

The cessation of clinging is to be realised, and not the objects of clinging. 

By pointing out that forgiveness is not something aligned with Buddhist teachings  is not clinging to no-forgiveness, nor is it being aversive to forgiveness.