Seeing, Recognising & Maintaining One's Enlightening Potential

[manitou]

Beautifully written.  I have been considering lately that with an ability to stop the thoughts, no judgments are made, there are no likes or dislikes, all is a feeling of being part of everything else---everything.  To experience truth is to hold this elevated state, to realize that is your true 'real' state.  We become able to smile at every horrible situation that comes, because we know that it's only 'It acting out Itself'.

 

I suspect that the enlightenment process lasts ad infinitum.  Once the change has occurred - and you'll definitely know when it has - then we're left with the ramifications.  The ramifications of how to wear this strange robe we just put on.

 

I love being on this thread.

[C T]

~ Paramito Ladakh ~ 

 

The practitioner's responsibility is to realization alone. 

 

[manitou]

Realization alone.  That says it all.  Dogma is transcended, realization is a kick in the gut.  Sometimes the realizator laughs when the realization happens.

 

 

Edited March 2, 2021 by manitou

[C T]

~ Trungpa Rinpoche ~ 

 

There are seasons in your life in the same way as there are seasons in nature. There are times to cultivate and create, when you nurture your world and give birth to new ideas and ventures. There are times of flourishing and abundance, when life feels in full bloom, energized and expanding. And there are times of fruition, when things come to an end. They have reached their climax and must be harvested before they begin to fade. And finally, of course, there are times that are cold and cutting and empty, times when the spring of new beginnings seems like a distant dream. These rhythms in life are natural events. They weave into one another as day follows night, bringing, not messages of hope and fear, but messages of how things are.

[C T]

[doc benway]

All of the various types of teachings and spiritual paths are related to the different capacities of understanding that different individuals have. There does not exist, from an absolute point of view, any teaching which is more perfect or effective than another. A teaching's value lies solely in the inner awakening which an individual can arrive at through it. If a person benefits from a given teaching, for that person that teaching is the supreme path, because it is suited to his or her nature and capacities.

~ Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche

 

[stirling]

On 3/24/2021 at 4:35 AM, steve said:

All of the various types of teachings and spiritual paths are related to the different capacities of understanding that different individuals have. There does not exist, from an absolute point of view, any teaching which is more perfect or effective than another. A teaching's value lies solely in the inner awakening which an individual can arrive at through it. If a person benefits from a given teaching, for that person that teaching is the supreme path, because it is suited to his or her nature and capacities.

~ Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche

 

 

IMHO, the direct path is to allow all conceptual ideation to settle out and become quiet in meditation. Very few are able to start there - feel like they must be "doing" something. The variety of paths and techniques all end right back at this point... the mind, settled out like a muddy jar left on the shelf, the self and other empty and quiet. 

 

The world will be a darker place without crazy old Norbu casting his light into the corners. Deep bows to Rinpoche and his teachings.

Edited March 26, 2021 by stirling
What is perfection?

[manitou]

On 3/1/2021 at 10:15 PM, C T said:

~ Paramito Ladakh ~ 

 

The practitioner's responsibility is to realization alone. 

 

 

 

"The practitioner's responsibility is to realization alone".  You can't imagine how good that makes me feel.  I'm a more idle old woman these days, but getting affirmation from Paramito Ladakh that our only true responsibility is 'realization alone' cuts me some slack about not being more productive in other ways.

 

This picture is wonderful.  It's as though the clouds parted, revealing the top of the mountain and the moon.  Perhaps his mind has achieved total clarity.  The synchronicity is beautiful, if that's the case.

[C T]

~ Tharchin Zangpo ~ 

 

Your conscious actions (karma) may deliver you to a certain place, be that heavenly, hell-like or neither, but know that, being entirely contingent, no such place of conditioned abiding will endure beyond its natural span.

[manitou]

9 hours ago, C T said:

~ Tharchin Zangpo ~ 

 

Your conscious actions (karma) may deliver you to a certain place, be that heavenly, hell-like or neither, but know that, being entirely contingent, no such place of conditioned abiding will endure beyond its natural span.

 

 

Said otherwise:   All time and space are yours.

[doc benway]

We will never find peace until we stop searching. We will never stop searching until we realize there is nothing to be found. In finding nothing, we find all.

 

   Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche

[ralis]

On 3/25/2021 at 9:06 PM, stirling said:

 

IMHO, the direct path is to allow all conceptual ideation to settle out and become quiet in meditation. Very few are able to start there - feel like they must be "doing" something. The variety of paths and techniques all end right back at this point... the mind, settled out like a muddy jar left on the shelf, the self and other empty and quiet. 

 

The world will be a darker place without crazy old Norbu casting his light into the corners. Deep bows to Rinpoche and his teachings.

 

I don't come on here that often anymore, but your post requires a direct response. 

 

"Crazy old Norbu"? Exactly, what is your point? I  Did you ever meet him and pay close attention to what he was transmitting? What I observed of the crowd around Norbu when I first met him in 1989 were wannabes and hangers-on who followed Norbu across most of this planet in the hopes that Norbu would be a surrogate parent. Lot's of projection and little or no responsibility for their own lives.

 

If you are referring to Dzogchen in your first paragraph, that doesn't even come close to defining Dzogchen, which is without definition, shape, or form. Nor, is Dzogchen about some sort of meditation practice or even quieting the mind. Quieting implies some sort of effort. Dzogchen is all and everything with no limits in space and time.

 

The bold above is for @Steve who asked me to define the key that is usually missed in Dzogchen teachings. Space is not a trivial concept in Dzogchen, but encompasses the continuum of infinite potential as Norbu so aptly stated it, time and time again!

[doc benway]

8 hours ago, ralis said:

 

I don't come on here that often anymore, but your post requires a direct response. 

 

"Crazy old Norbu"? Exactly, what is your point? I  Did you ever meet him and pay close attention to what he was transmitting? What I observed of the crowd around Norbu when I first met him in 1989 were wannabes and hangers-on who followed Norbu across most of this planet in the hopes that Norbu would be a surrogate parent. Lot's of projection and little or no responsibility for their own lives.

 

If you are referring to Dzogchen in your first paragraph, that doesn't even come close to defining Dzogchen, which is without definition, shape, or form. Nor, is Dzogchen about some sort of meditation practice or even quieting the mind. Quieting implies some sort of effort. Dzogchen is all and everything with no limits in space and time.

 

The bold above is for @Steve who asked me to define the key that is usually missed in Dzogchen teachings. Space is not a trivial concept in Dzogchen, but encompasses the continuum of infinite potential as Norbu so aptly stated it, time and time again!

 

Hi @ralis,

I don't recall the context of our discussion but I appreciate the belated reply.

I agree that space is a key component of Dzogchen.

I also think it is important to emphasize that it is not presented as a concept, more as a direct experience or as an example in pointing out instructions. Just as Dzogchen is without definition, shape, or form, it is also beyond all concepts, including the concept of space.

 

While meditation practice and quieting the mind are no longer necessary at some point, that is a theoretical objective for most of us.

Quieting the mind does require effort in the beginning and is necessary in order to recognize the mind's Nature.

It is critical to be honest with ourselves about whether and how much effort is needed and not to grasp a concept, like the effortless nature of Dzogchen, before it manifests spontaneously and genuinely in our own practice.

 

A useful metaphor in Dzogchen is that our thoughts, perceptions, and feelings are initially like ice on a tree branch that thaws only with the warmth of the sun; at this level there is effort needed to aid the dissolution. This effort can take many forms depending on what is working for us in the moment. With practice and experience these distractions become more like an early morning frost which evaporates quickly and easily, with far less effort; at this level we simply need to turn our awareness to whatever arises and it is easily liberated. The effort here is minimal but even turning awareness to the distraction is an effort of sorts. At some point the thoughts, perceptions, and feelings, like snowflakes falling onto the ocean, dissolve immediately upon arising without the need for any effort whatsoever, not even the effort of our attention. This is an experience of unbounded spaciousness within or upon which no thoughts, perceptions, or feelings can take root. We are like space, like the sky. Dzogchen is full of beautiful metaphors.

 

The truth is that we need a variety of practices to get to that point, depending on our personal karma, and Dzogchen embraces such practices fully - from the 9 Breathings of Purification, to Tsa Lung, to Trul Khor, to Zhiné, to Guru Yoga, Refuge, and Bodhicitta, to Trekchöd, and Thögal, these are all practices that are an integral part of the Dzogchen path. Most Dzogchen masters also maintain other practices such as tantric practices and ngöndro throughout their life. Eventually all of these can be transcended and abandoned provided we are able to precisely and effortlessly rest in the Nature of Mind without any disturbance or distraction on a continuous basis. That is a lifetime objective and precious few practitioners get to that point.

 

I'm sure you're already aware of these points but thought it worth sharing so that those less familiar with Dzogchen don't get unrealistic expectations and ideas of what it is all about. Dzogchen, from the non-dual side, is an effortless practice with no technique, no method, no structure, etc... From a practical point of view, the dualistic point of view of the practitioner, we need to do whatever we need to do to get to that point and we shouldn't feel negatively about ourselves for needing to do these things. 

 

[ralis]

5 hours ago, steve said:

 

Hi @ralis,

I don't recall the context of our discussion but I appreciate the belated reply.

I agree that space is a key component of Dzogchen.

I also think it is important to emphasize that it is not presented as a concept, more as a direct experience or as an example in pointing out instructions. Just as Dzogchen is without definition, shape, or form, it is also beyond all concepts, including the concept of space.

 

While meditation practice and quieting the mind are no longer necessary at some point, that is a theoretical objective for most of us.

Quieting the mind does require effort in the beginning and is necessary in order to recognize the mind's Nature.

It is critical to be honest with ourselves about whether and how much effort is needed and not to grasp a concept, like the effortless nature of Dzogchen, before it manifests spontaneously and genuinely in our own practice.

 

A useful metaphor in Dzogchen is that our thoughts, perceptions, and feelings are initially like ice on a tree branch that thaws only with the warmth of the sun; at this level there is effort needed to aid the dissolution. This effort can take many forms depending on what is working for us in the moment. With practice and experience these distractions become more like an early morning frost which evaporates quickly and easily, with far less effort; at this level we simply need to turn our awareness to whatever arises and it is easily liberated. The effort here is minimal but even turning awareness to the distraction is an effort of sorts. At some point the thoughts, perceptions, and feelings, like snowflakes falling onto the ocean, dissolve immediately upon arising without the need for any effort whatsoever, not even the effort of our attention. This is an experience of unbounded spaciousness within or upon which no thoughts, perceptions, or feelings can take root. We are like space, like the sky. Dzogchen is full of beautiful metaphors.

 

The truth is that we need a variety of practices to get to that point, depending on our personal karma, and Dzogchen embraces such practices fully - from the 9 Breathings of Purification, to Tsa Lung, to Trul Khor, to Zhiné, to Guru Yoga, Refuge, and Bodhicitta, to Trekchöd, and Thögal, these are all practices that are an integral part of the Dzogchen path. Most Dzogchen masters also maintain other practices such as tantric practices and ngöndro throughout their life. Eventually all of these can be transcended and abandoned provided we are able to precisely and effortlessly rest in the Nature of Mind without any disturbance or distraction on a continuous basis. That is a lifetime objective and precious few practitioners get to that point.

 

I'm sure you're already aware of these points but thought it worth sharing so that those less familiar with Dzogchen don't get unrealistic expectations and ideas of what it is all about. Dzogchen, from the non-dual side, is an effortless practice with no technique, no method, no structure, etc... From a practical point of view, the dualistic point of view of the practitioner, we need to do whatever we need to do to get to that point and we shouldn't feel negatively about ourselves for needing to do these things. 

 

 

By extension, space both inner and outer space. The Longde series of practices are of vital importance in realizing both. Longde is what I was referring to last year in my response to you, but have never elaborated on it here. Sky gazing which is part of Longde tends to be a bit controversial here among some. Norbu taught regarding mind and nature of mind and he never ventured very far into it, but was a very elementary introduction. Mind and nature of mind could be translated as space and phenomena which are inseparable. 

 

Itzak Benthov's book "Stalking The Wild Pendulum" describes it as stillness and movement. His book is well worth reading!

Edited May 1, 2021 by ralis

[doc benway]

14 minutes ago, ralis said:

 

By extension, space both inner and outer space. The Longde series of practices are of vital importance in realizing both. Longde is what I was referring to last year in my response to you, but have never elaborated on it here. Sky gazing which is part of Longde tends to be a bit controversial here among some. Norbu taught regarding mind and nature of mind and he never ventured very far into it, but was a very elementary introduction. Mind and nature of mind could be translated as space and phenomena which are inseparable. 

 

Itzak Benthov's book "Stalking The Wild Pendulum" describes it as stillness and movement. His book is well with reading!

 

I'm not familiar with that book but will check it out, thanks.

 

[ralis]

39 minutes ago, steve said:

 

I'm not familiar with that book but will check it out, thanks.

 

I reread it a few weeks ago. Well worth it. 

[manitou]

5 hours ago, ralis said:

Sky gazing which is part of Longde tends to be a bit controversial here among some.

 

 

I remember laying on the grass and sky gazing when I was real young.  At one point, it felt like I 'fell into the sky'.  It was a really odd feeling.  I think it was the first time I ever experienced the magnitude of the sky.  But it has stuck with me.

[stirling]

On 4/30/2021 at 10:01 PM, ralis said:

"Crazy old Norbu"? Exactly, what is your point? I  Did you ever meet him and pay close attention to what he was transmitting? What I observed of the crowd around Norbu when I first met him in 1989 were wannabes and hangers-on who followed Norbu across most of this planet in the hopes that Norbu would be a surrogate parent. Lot's of projection and little or no responsibility for their own lives.

 

Norbu rinpoche is HIGHLY realized. This has a tendency to make "people" a bit strange. Some of the teachers I have met or worked with are similar. I am familiar with his teachings, and have seen Norbu speak (in the late 80's also), but never observed any of the phenomena you are mentioning... though he wouldn't be unique in having entourages like you suggest. Why do you mention them?

 

On 4/30/2021 at 10:01 PM, ralis said:

 

If you are referring to Dzogchen in your first paragraph, that doesn't even come close to defining Dzogchen, which is without definition, shape, or form. Nor, is Dzogchen about some sort of meditation practice or even quieting the mind. Quieting implies some sort of effort. Dzogchen is all and everything with no limits in space and time.

 

The bold above is for @Steve who asked me to define the key that is usually missed in Dzogchen teachings. Space is not a trivial concept in Dzogchen, but encompasses the continuum of infinite potential as Norbu so aptly stated it, time and time again!

 

There are no mentions of Dzogchen in my paragraphs, though I am quite familiar with it. Most of my teachers have been well-known Nyingma teachers.

 

Bows.

[doc benway]

A teacher of Dzogchen never ask you to accept or change something. A teacher of Dzogchen only asks that you observe yourself, so you can discover your real nature. If you discover your real nature, that is good for you not for your teacher. The teacher tries to make you understand. That is really the teaching.

~ Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

 

 

[manitou]

 

That is quite beautiful.  The teacher leads you to the realization.  How simple.

 

Who is who in this photo?  If the man on the right is the rinpoche, his eyes say that he is waiting to see if the student has caught on.

 

If the man on the right is the student, he is clueless.  

 

 

 

Edited June 27, 2021 by manitou

[doc benway]

26 minutes ago, manitou said:

 

That is quite beautiful.  The teacher leads you to the realization.  How simple.

 

Who is who in this photo?  If the man on the right is the rinpoche, his eyes say that he is waiting to see if the student has caught on.

 

If the man on the right is the student, he is clueless.  

 

 

 

 

 

The man on the right is Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche.

I don't know who the man on the left is. 

[manitou]

Good.  So he's waiting.

[thelerner]

On 3/7/2021 at 6:12 AM, C T said:

Problem is, we see these pictures, they're good but they're the tip of the iceberg, an hour or 3 of the day.  It's whether he has the same wah when he cuts wood, carries water.. deals with life's trickiness.  

 

Sitting in peace is easy,

living in peace is hard.  

[C T]

On 28/06/2021 at 2:30 AM, thelerner said:

Problem is, we see these pictures, they're good but they're the tip of the iceberg, an hour or 3 of the day.  It's whether he has the same wah when he cuts wood, carries water.. deals with life's trickiness.  

 

Sitting in peace is easy,

living in peace is hard.  

True. Some can, some can't - such is life. The point of being on the cushion is as vital as being off, some say. I think the residual effects of sitting can accumulate over time and overflow into mundane life if there's patience and self-kindness, among other virtues that can bloom as practice matures. I've found that it's possible to remain mentally 'on the cushion' even in the midst of activity. 

[TranquilTurmoil]

On 6/26/2021 at 6:51 PM, steve said:

A teacher of Dzogchen never ask you to accept or change something. A teacher of Dzogchen only asks that you observe yourself, so you can discover your real nature. If you discover your real nature, that is good for you not for your teacher. The teacher tries to make you understand. That is really the teaching.

~ Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

 

 

I was reading on Tricycle what a teacher is and more specific what I teacher isn’t (by Ken McLeod). And I feel like this quote and that article only partially illuminate the teachers role… bc how I read it, it seems like genuine teachers are only concerned with awakening their students, not being their “friend”and certainly not their therapist. But I’m wondering if this makes teachers seem goal driven rather than driven to compassionately relieve the suffering of sentient beings? I just think people should also show the side of selfless sympathetic joy and genuine karuna/mahakaruna cause in my experience the spiritual path has been cold, lonely, and while profound and sometimes transcendent it has been totally alienating. I only feel kinship with fellow seekers, heart broken hermit/exiles/menschs/mahasattvas; ordinary people, Lao Tzu, Chaung Tzu, Thich nhat Hanh, Chogyam Trungpa, Sheng-Yen, etc. but I have had very alienating experiences with teachers who were either self-absorbed, unrefined or attempting to teach by telling me what they thought I needed to hear as opposed to what I was asking for. This culminated (again) yesterday after being denied an interview again with the local Theravada monastery I ve tried to build a bridge with.

 

on the flip side the I Ching has quite skillfully and successfully used what I now contextualize as Ruthless Compassion mixed with genuine encouragement. But my point is I think in many cases we ought to consider putting the “Friend” back in Spiritual Friend 🙏🏼