The Laozi as a Manual of Manipulation and Control

[rene]

  On 1/1/2015 at 1:21 AM, ChiDragon said:

 

"Non-interference" means do not interfere with Nature and let it take its course. No.....???

 

Nope. And "wu-wei" is neither of those.

This is too far off the OP, ChiDragon.

Feel free to start another thread or something, if you'd like. (-:

 

warm regards

[Taoist Texts]

  On 1/1/2015 at 12:10 AM, dawei said:

Shen Dao first employed the idea as 無事... Laozi seems to borrow this idea.

What is Shen Dao?

[Riyue]

The original cf Guodian #19 can be found here:
http://www.alice-dsl.net/wulfdieterich/index.htm/Guodian_ddj19.htm

 

The transcription
???絕智棄辯???
correct?

 

The guodian - original has: as first character.

Please compare

and

---
The transcription 绝絶 expresses something completely different.
The knife of the right side gives the meaning "cut".
--
This knife cannot be found in
It is the picture of a loom, which points to the meaning of weaving; tissue, tantra....
---
Just one example how a wrong transcription changes the meaning.
...

Could not be here a good start for a better understanding of Laozi ?

In using a correct understanding of the original characters... and forgetting wrong transcriptions???

[dust]

  On 1/1/2015 at 11:09 AM, Riyue said:

Just one example how a wrong transcription changes the meaning.

...

Could not be here a good start for a better understanding of Laozi ?

In using a correct understanding of the original characters... and forgetting wrong transcriptions???

 

I'd like you to review a few chapters in this subforum where I've participated with Guodian translations.

 

I've spent a good few months transcribing the text myself, using a number of different sources as reference.

 

The Chinese I've quoted in the OP is as close (in most cases) as we can get to the Guodian character with modern Chinese typed text.

 

I have developed some understanding of the Guodian Chu characters, and my transcription is closer than you'll find elsewhere without reconstructed characters such as can be found here (an excellent paper, by the way).

 

Point being, this "better understanding" of Laozi is something I've already been working on....

 

 

 

As far as the first character, look here:

 

http://dict.shufaji.com/word-1728.html

 

Note the similarity between the GD character and the 金文 Jinwen version of 绝

 

People often group Chu script with 篆文 Zhuanwen, but anyone who's scrutinized the text more than a little will realize that it is somewhere in between 金 and 篆. It's often much closer to 金文. Some characters are entirely different from anything else we know of, and some are mirrored.

 

In this case, the version of 绝 that can be seen in both 金文 and 篆文 has been simplified -- I'm not sure whether this is to fit on the slips or simply because the Chu version of the character was already a simplified version.

 

 

 

Feel free to challenge me on more "wrong transcriptions", but know that in most cases I have already questioned it myself!

[dust]

Also, just to be sure we understand the character:

 

The GD character is comprised of 2 ball-like objects and a right-angled structure.

 

The balls are simplified reels of silk. The right-angled structure is the knife.

[dust]

  On 12/31/2014 at 10:44 PM, Michael Sternbach said:

Surely Daoism is a beautiful philosophy teaching Man to live in harmony with nature and his fellows. It was not invented by Lau Tzu, but his book became something like its 'Bible'. If he was grossly misunderstood than this must have occurred already a long time ago.

 

I agree, Daoism is that. And whilst LZ might not have 'invented' it, many people believe that he did and that the Laozi book is the bible for Daoist thought.

 

Most of us here know that there's much more to Daoism than just the TTC, but many of us still look to it as the definitive text -- and in many ways, it is. It's been used as such for centuries.

 

 

  On 12/31/2014 at 10:44 PM, Michael Sternbach said:

It may have been contributed to by several authors over a period of time, to my knowledge.

 

For sure, but that wouldn't change the original meaning of any particular chapter, would it?

 

 

  On 12/31/2014 at 10:44 PM, Michael Sternbach said:

It's also possible that Lao Tzu incorporated (as we would say) contradictory perspectives without seeing them as contradictory himself. As the Dao embraces everything. Maybe, in a sense, he was 'beyond good and evil'.

 

For sure, there's contradiction in other ways, and he was a paradoxical writer. But is there contradiction in the passages about leadership/governance? I think the thread is fairly uniform, fairly consistent.

 

 

  On 12/31/2014 at 10:44 PM, Michael Sternbach said:

I could also imagine that under the circumstances of his time and place clever manipulation was indeed a more humane alternative for a ruler to open brutal dictatorship.

 

Yes I agree (I did mention that I think much of his advice might be good advice, as sinister as it seems)

 

 

  On 12/31/2014 at 10:44 PM, Michael Sternbach said:

Last but not least, I think it's totally acceptable even if we (perhaps) project any wisdom into the TTC's ambiguous words as long as it helps us to live more at peace. We can't ascertain what was really on Lao Tzu's mind anyway.

 

Yeah. But I'm not convinced that everything people apply is necessarily applicable. I think we sometimes apply things because we believe that they'll be helpful because we read them in the TTC, and if they don't turn out to be helpful -- or even if they actually harm us -- we won't put the blame in the right place.

 

Maybe.

 

 

  On 12/31/2014 at 10:44 PM, Michael Sternbach said:

I certainly look forward to further exchange on this topic.

 

[Marblehead]

  On 1/1/2015 at 12:24 AM, dawei said:

"Remember wu wei is active intent not non action"

I want to modify this quote:

 

"Remember, wu wei is not active intent, not non action nor non interfering."

 

That is to say, "Wu wei is living spontaneously."

 

To rescue the child from the river's waters is a spontaneous act of interfering because it is what any compassionate person would do.

 

I like to express it as doing (living) without alterior motive.

[Marblehead]

  On 1/1/2015 at 1:21 AM, ChiDragon said:

Hi, rene

"Non-interference" means do not interfere with Nature and let it take its course. No.....???

Hehehe. Forget "non-interference". Every time we step on a blade of grass we are interfering.

[Marblehead]

  On 1/1/2015 at 1:31 AM, ChiDragon said:

 

Perhaps only in the eyes of the beholder. A sage would not read it as paradox.

But it was the Sage who wrote it. (S)he knew what thoughts (s)he wanted to invoke.

[dust]

  On 1/1/2015 at 12:24 PM, Marblehead said:

"Remember, wu wei is not active intent, not non action nor non interfering."

 

That is to say, "Wu wei is living spontaneously."

 

To rescue the child from the river's waters is a spontaneous act of interfering because it is what any compassionate person would do.

 

I like to express it as doing (living) without alterior motive.

 

 

In the context of a couple of chapters, though, and assuming we are either concerned with Laozi's idea of wuwei or we more generally want to use the Laozi to help us in defining wuwei as a broader Daoist concept,

 

...

是以聖人之治虛其心實其腹 The wise therefore rule by emptying hearts and stuffing bellies

弱其志強其骨 by weakening ambitions and strengthening bones;

常使民無知無欲 If the people lack knowledge and desire,

使夫知者不敢為也 then those with knowledge will not try to interfere;

為無為則無不治 Practicing wuwei, nothing is left ungoverned

 

 

The wise man has active intent, no? I'm not sure if it's "alterior", but he has motive, and he's certainly interfering.

 

He's also, by keeping knowledge to a minimum, actively trying to prevent other people from interfering with society's status quo.

 

To me, the wei wuwei in the last line here is explicitly referring to making sure other people are being wuwei: by doing implementing wuwei, nothing is left ungoverned -- because by, as simply as possible, keeping people from action, there is nothing left to govern. People farm and eat and sleep, and as long as he's good at preventing war (GD 14 / WB 64), the ruler doesn't have much left to bother with...

Edited January 1, 2015 by dustybeijing

[Marblehead]

And that takes us right back to your concept for this thread: That the TTC was written for the ruling class as a guide for manipulating and controlling the people.

 

Don't let those with knowledge get close to the people. Those with knowledge will cause doubt to arise in the mind of the people and they will start asking question. Let them be happy with their filled bellies and strong bones.

 

Yes, the wise man has active intent. Sure, some would be striving for a position in the court. This would be an alterior motive. If it were in a pure Buddhist context, solely to help others, then it would be pure intent. And yes, for anything to change there must be interference. Nature does it all the time.

 

I'm still with you regarding the opening post.

[Taoist Texts]

  On 1/1/2015 at 12:57 PM, dustybeijing said:

In the context of a couple of chapters, though, and assuming we are either concerned with Laozi's idea of wuwei or we more generally want to use the Laozi to help us in defining wuwei as a broader Daoist concept,

 

...

是以聖人之治虛其心實其腹 The wise therefore rule by emptying hearts and stuffing bellies

弱其志強其骨 by weakening ambitions and strengthening bones;

 

whose hearts and bellies? if his subjects - then how do the wise do it?

[dust]

Food and religion

[Taoist Texts]

I dont think so, for that would be doing.

[rene]

  On 1/1/2015 at 11:57 AM, dustybeijing said:

Yeah. But I'm not convinced that everything people apply is necessarily applicable. I think we sometimes apply things because we believe that they'll be helpful because we read them in the TTC, and if they don't turn out to be helpful -- or even if they actually harm us -- we won't put the blame in the right place. Maybe.

 

I think so. Helpful ~ or useful as support for already held ideas.

[rene]

  On 1/1/2015 at 12:57 PM, dustybeijing said:

... we are either concerned with Laozi's idea of wuwei or we more generally want to use the Laozi to help us in defining wuwei as a broader Daoist concept,

 

Thanks for this reminder that what we'll see depends on what we're looking for.

[Riyue]

  On 1/1/2015 at 11:49 AM, dustybeijing said:

Also, just to be sure we understand the character:

 

The GD character is comprised of 2 ball-like objects and a right-angled structure.

 

The balls are simplified reels of silk. The right-angled structure is the knife.

 

If you think the right angled structure to be a knife - then your transcription would be a little bit nearer. But why using transcriptions at all?

I remain at the interpretation I have given above.

[dust]

Riyue, I think... this isn't the place for discussing individual character transcriptions in specific chapters. Perhaps we can talk about it here:

http://thetaobums.com/topic/17082-ttc-study-chapter-19-of-the-tao-teh-ching/page-4

 

 

 

  On 1/1/2015 at 3:04 PM, Taoist Texts said:

I dont think so, for that would be doing.

 

The ruler does; he makes sure others don't. For if others don't, the ruler doesn't need to do so much.

 

It's all right there in ch.3...

[ChiDragon]

  On 1/1/2015 at 12:57 PM, dustybeijing said:

The wise man has active intent, no? I'm not sure if it's "alterior", but he has motive, and he's certainly interfering.

 

He's also, by keeping knowledge to a minimum, actively trying to prevent other people from interfering with society's status quo.

 

To me, the wei wuwei in the last line here is explicitly referring to making sure other people are being wuwei: by doing implementing wuwei, nothing is left ungoverned -- because by, as simply as possible, keeping people from action, there is nothing left to govern. People farm and eat and sleep, and as long as he's good at preventing war (GD 14 / WB 64), the ruler doesn't have much left to bother with...

 

dusty.....

I am glad that you are going through the same thing as I had, in the past 15-20 years, for studying the TTC.

 

Of course, a wise man like Lao Zi has one, and only one, active intent to begin with which is to be Wu Wei. Hereinafter, his whole philosophy was based on Wu Wei.

 

I don't think a wise ruler would want his people to be stupid by keeping knowledge to a minimum. Therefore, I would like to rephrase this statement to make more sense:

 

"He's also, by keeping malicious knowledge to a minimum, actively trying to prevent other people from interfering with society's status quo."

 

Edited January 1, 2015 by ChiDragon

[dust]

  On 1/1/2015 at 3:24 PM, rene said:

I think so. Helpful ~ or useful as support for already held ideas.

 

I think many are, too. But which?

 

I think if we talk of specific ideas, some will be found to be useful and logical, and some will fall apart.

 

 

 

 

  On 1/1/2015 at 4:18 PM, ChiDragon said:

Of course, a wise man like Lao Zi has one, and only one, active intent to begin with which is to be Wu Wei. Hereinafter, his whole philosophy was based on Wu Wei.

 

That depends on which chapter we're reading, and how honest we're willing to be about the interpretation.

 

 

 

  On 1/1/2015 at 4:18 PM, ChiDragon said:

I don't think a wise ruler would want his people to be stupid by keeping knowledge to a minimum.

 

I do. I think it's certain that this is a safe idea for any ruler. I think that most rulers in recorded history have done this.

 

 

 

  On 1/1/2015 at 4:18 PM, ChiDragon said:

Therefore, I would like to rephrase this statement to make more sense:

 

"He's also, by keeping malicious knowledge to a minimum, actively trying to prevent other people from interfering with society's status quo."

 

Hmm... but he doesn't use the word malicious, does he?

[ChiDragon]

  Quote

是以聖人之治虛其心實其腹 The wise therefore rule by emptying hearts and stuffing bellies

弱其志強其骨 by weakening ambitions and strengthening bones;

 

  On 1/1/2015 at 2:11 PM, Taoist Texts said:

whose hearts and bellies? if his subjects - then how do the wise do it?

Yes, it is his subjects.

 

The classical interpretations:

"Emptying the hearts(mind)" means keeping the people educated and purify the mind from malicious thoughts.

"Stuff bellies" means keep the people well fed, so, they won't have to deal with hunger to prevent them from stealing.

Edited January 1, 2015 by ChiDragon

[rene]

  On 1/1/2015 at 4:18 PM, ChiDragon said:

Of course, a wise man like Lao Zi has one, and only one, active intent to begin with which is to be Wu Wei.

 

Active intention to become WuWei ~ is like staying drunk to avoid drinking.

 

Or so it seems to me.

[Taoist Texts]

  On 1/1/2015 at 4:16 PM, dustybeijing said:

Riyue, I think... this isn't the place for discussing individual character transcriptions in specific chapters. Perhaps we can talk about it here:

http://thetaobums.com/topic/17082-ttc-study-chapter-19-of-the-tao-teh-ching/page-4

 

 

 

 

The ruler does; he makes sure others don't. For if others don't, the ruler doesn't need to do so much.

 

It's all right there in ch.3...

well at this point i will just repeat that you got it exactly backwards and leave at that without argumentation since that would be OT here. We can reprise it in any chapter topic if you wish.

[ChiDragon]

  On 1/1/2015 at 4:23 PM, dustybeijing said:

1. That depends on which chapter we're reading, and how honest we're willing to be about the interpretation.

 

2. I do. I think it's certain that this is a safe idea for any ruler. I think that most rulers in recorded history have done this.

 

3. Hmm... but he doesn't use the word malicious, does he?

 

  Quote

"Of course, a wise man like Lao Zi has one, and only one, active intent to begin with which is to be Wu Wei. Hereinafter, his whole philosophy was based on Wu Wei.

 

1. This concept was not just from the interpretation of one chapter but the whole TTC. If one read the TTC carefully, most of the chapters do support that.

 

 

  Quote

I don't think a wise ruler would want his people to be stupid by keeping knowledge to a minimum.

 

2. Most rulers in recorded history have done this; but are they wise....???

 

3. The basic rule to interpret classics is by deductive and inductive reasoning. Please keep in mind that the paradoxical statements in the TTC have no superficial value. Unless, it was interpreted with pure logic.

Edited January 1, 2015 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

  On 1/1/2015 at 4:38 PM, rene said:

Active intention to become WuWei ~ is like staying drunk to avoid drinking.

 

Or so it seems to me.

Of course, a wise man like Lao Zi has one, and only one, active intent to begin with which is to be Wu Wei.