The Laozi as a Manual of Manipulation and Control

[rene]

Of course, a wise man like Lao Zi has one, and only one, active intent to begin with which is to be Wu Wei.

 

[Taoist Texts]

Yes, it is his subjects.

 

The classical interpretations:

"Emptying the hearts(mind)" means keeping the people educated and purify the mind from malicious thoughts.

"Stuff bellies" means keep the people well fed, so, they won't have to deal with hunger to prevent them from stealing.

'feeding people' is non-action? doesnt sound non-active to me

 

classical interpreters dont know what they r talking about

[ChiDragon]

'feeding people' is non-action? doesnt sound non-active to me

 

classical interpreters dont know what they r talking about

Non-action....???

You mean Wu Wei which is do no harm to people.....???

 

Yes, feeding people is action. However, not feeding people with poison to cause harm is "Wu Wei".

 

I will reserve my comment for "classical interpreters dont know what they r talking about".

 

Edited January 1, 2015 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

 

It's either one gets it or doesn't.

[Amurite]

Thank you for posting this.

 

As someone who is very new to this I like reading different perspectives on this before I get comfortable and stuck in one point of view.

 

When I first was reading about the writing of Lau Tzu the fact that this was more directed at rulers came up but not many details were given. Also many people do indeed gloss over this. Which seems odd.

[rene]

It's either one gets it or doesn't.

 

Truer words were never spoken.

 

Happy New Year, CD

[Marblehead]

"He's also, by keeping malicious knowledge to a minimum, actively trying to prevent other people from interfering with society's status quo."

 

Okay. now you are getting very close, perhaps even on the mark. In most cases wisdom can be gained only through knowledge. Wisdom will point out the malicious knowledge,

[dawei]

In most cases wisdom can be gained only through knowledge. Wisdom will point out the malicious knowledge,

 

This seems to be just a local mind approach... study more to understand more... of course we can do that...

 

Is that the Way that LZ suggests?

 

The logic-bots on the site are just spinning their hamster wheel of life... let them run.

 

If your serious to understand what LZ says to pursue... it is... well... first stop... the self.

 

This topic title along suggests that... that is why I suggested this is about simplicity... the uncarved block

[rene]

hi guys,

In most cases wisdom can be gained only through knowledge. Wisdom will point out the malicious knowledge,

 

This seems to be just a local mind approach... study more to understand more... of course we can do that...

Is that the Way that LZ suggests?

The logic-bots on the site are just spinning their hamster wheel of life... let them run.

If your serious to understand what LZ says to pursue... it is... well... first stop... the self.

This topic title along suggests that... that is why I suggested this is about simplicity... the uncarved block

 

I disagree with you both re wisdom; at least the 'wisdom' LZ suggests.

 

MH - do you recall Dr Wang's "wu-wisdom"? Wisdom (understanding) sourced and based in Wu?

 

Some folks (gnostics) differentiate these things with words like 'knowing'' and 'gknowing' (or something like that) - to describe the difference between everyday knowledge - and understanding that is sourced in (your Mystery.

 

One can have all the knowledge in the world and appear to make wise choices, but, imo, the true 'wisdom' - the 'wisdom' LZ conveys - has nothing to do with 'knowledge', and everything to do with trusting that which comes of its own accord, when left unhindered (uncarved).

 

Thoughts?

 

Edit: p.s...dawei - yes, it is just that simple.

Edited January 1, 2015 by rene

[Marblehead]

 

This topic title along suggests that... that is why I suggested this is about simplicity... the uncarved block

So how are we to define and then work to attain what simplicity, the uncarved block is without wisdom?

 

I am extremely well-carved. I suggest that most of us are.

 

Return to simplicity like the Hippies did? Through sex and drugs? It's not there.

 

Simplicity is not necessarily the same concept as the uncarved block.

 

Simplicity is a simple life.

 

The uncarved block is returning to our true nature.

[Marblehead]

Thoughts?

Of course I have thoughts. Hehehe. And I freely express most of them.

 

Yes, I remember Wayne's Wu-wisdom. This is the wisdom that drives spontaneous living.

 

I have mentioned elsewhere that more wisdom can be found in the mind of a farmer with a sixth grade education than can be found in the mind of one who has a doctorates in some particular field of study. The farmer's wisdom is Wu-wisdon, the doctorate's wisdom is gained through knowledge.

 

I haven't yet put anything together regarding the type of knowledge Lao Tzu was talking about. But I think there are at least two aspects he spoke to: the knowledge we gain to preserve our own life and the knowledge we gain for using other people.

 

That might be a good study.

[dust]

其政悶悶，其民淳淳

其政察察，其民缺缺

When the country is ruled with a light hand, the people are simple
When the country is ruled with severity, the people are cunning

[dust]

If men are not afraid to die,
It is no avail to threaten them with death.
If men live in constant fear of dying,
And if breaking the law means that a man will be killed,
Who will dare to break the law?

There is always an official executioner.
If you try to take his place,
It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood.
If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

 

Yeah... I overlooked this one...

[thelerner]

When the country is ruled with a light hand, the people are simple

 

When the country is ruled with severity, the people are cunning

my country is my family,

though who rules whom

is often up for grabs.

[Taomeow]

I sealed that genie to ripen in the bottle many moons ago... now it's out and going mainstream, looks like.

 

http://thetaobums.com/topic/13308-what-do-the-bums-think-about-this-guys-taoist-principles/?p=171242

 

"Taomeow

Posted 17 January 2010 - 04:56 PM

 

(...) It was read as a political pamphlet by many of its contemporaries, not as a work of philosophy at all. A proposed alternative choice of social behavior, revolutionary in its attempts to talk to the ruler rather than to the ruled. Laozi talks to the emperor, king, sovereign, father, man of power and authority, not to the powerless -- have you noticed?.. To understand what "not human" means to Laozi, one needs to consider what "human" means to him. A pat on the shoulder, an encouragement to do things the way we already do them? Hardly..."

[dawei]

So how are we to define and then work to attain what simplicity, the uncarved block is without wisdom?

 

I am extremely well-carved. I suggest that most of us are.

 

Return to simplicity like the Hippies did? Through sex and drugs? It's not there.

 

Simplicity is not necessarily the same concept as the uncarved block.

 

Simplicity is a simple life.

 

The uncarved block is returning to our true nature.

 

Simplicity is a typical translation for the uncarved block... raw simplicity is original, true nature... which is the true self.

[ChiDragon]

But it was the Sage who wrote it. (S)he knew what thoughts (s)he wanted to invoke.

 

The sage who wrote the TTC was Lao Zi. At some point in time, we had established that it was aiming at the rulers. Lao Zi was no dummy, he wrote it in code for people at his level to understand. So, they may be become advisers and interpret it to a wise ruler.

 

Besides, it was a taboo to write something against the ruler in the antiquity. He had considered that anyone might get in trouble by having his classic in one's procession. Hence, he did not write it so trivial for an ordinary person to comprehend. That was why he used the term "聖人(sage)" other than "ruler". By now, we should know why the TTC is extremely paradoxical.

 

 

Edited January 2, 2015 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

If men are not afraid to die,

It is no avail to threaten them with death.

If men live in constant fear of dying,

And if breaking the law means that a man will be killed,

Who will dare to break the law?

There is always an official executioner.

If you try to take his place,

It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood.

If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

 

Yeah... I overlooked this one...

 

Here is my attempt for the translation of Chapter 74

Chapter 74

1. If people are not afraid of death,

2. Then, why use death to threaten them?

3. If the people were always left to be afraid of death,

4. And those who are nefarious,

5. We may arrest them and execute them.

6. Who would dare to commit the crimes again.

7. There are, always, specialized people who will carry out the execution,

8. If someone was substituted to carry out the execution,

9. Then, it would seem like someone was doing the cutting for a carpenter.

10. It would be rare without having someone getting his hands injured...!!!

[dust]

 

Here is my attempt for the translation of Chapter 74

Chapter 74

1. If people are not afraid of death,

2. Then, why use death to threaten them?

3. If the people were always left to be afraid of death,

4. And those who are nefarious,

5. We may arrest them and execute them.

6. Who would dare to commit the crimes again.

7. There are, always, specialized people who will carry out the execution,

8. If someone was substituted to carry out the execution,

9. Then, it would seem like someone was doing the cutting for a carpenter.

10. It would be rare without having someone getting his hands injured...!!!

 

The overall meaning is the same, though, right?

 

i.e. you will need an executioner, but don't be like Ned Stark and DIY

 

And if he's saying that an executioner is necessary, he's most certainly advocating direct interference in people's lives, right?

 

An example of why I believe that many of these chapters were added later on. There's no way that Laozi as found in the Guodian -- even with all his advice about rulership and war -- would have added some chapter about the necessity of (public?) execution

[dust]

I am not sure if you have seen this link else where:

AN INVESTIGATION INTO THE GUODIAN LAOZI

by Jennifer Lundin Ritchie

https://circle.ubc.ca/bitstream/handle/2429/23748/ubc_2010_spring_lundin_ritchie_jennifer.pdf?sequence=3

 

dawei thanks for this. I'm finally getting around to reading it today. About halfway through, and she's basically confirming everything I've learned (on here and through my own study), which is great. Very interesting in parts. Would that I'd read it 4 or 5 months ago...!

 

But I'm also realizing that it's all just a summary of other scholars' views so far... an essay about books about a text... I wonder when others will start releasing their own translations?

 

Speaking of which, my own translation (of all preceding TYSS) is ostensibly complete. Every chapter is accounted for. I just need to go back and look each one over again. And again. And maybe one more time after that...

[Taoist Texts]

valar dohaeris

[forestofclarity]

It is pretty classic in spiritual literature to compare the body to a kingdom, and the inner self to the ruler. Often, the cosmos, the government, and the individual are said to reflect one another. If the principles are universal, what is the difference between running the cosmos, the State, or the human being?

 

http://www.goldenelixir.com/taoism/views_of_the_body.html

[Taoist Texts]

If the principles are universal, what is the difference between running the cosmos, the State, or the human being?

who is running the cosmos?

 

Thats the thing though, the principles are not universal at all. What happened historically was that the author of TTC was using the logic 'as above so MUST be below' to assure the correctness of governing the below by imitating the Heavenly way above. It was only possive due to a presence of a very special being below, the one with Heavenly qualities - the king. Thats a condition sine qua non. A state without a king or a being who is not a king is out of luck according to TTC.

[dust]

It is pretty classic in spiritual literature to compare the body to a kingdom, and the inner self to the ruler. Often, the cosmos, the government, and the individual are said to reflect one another. If the principles are universal, what is the difference between running the cosmos, the State, or the human being?

 

If you read even a few of the chapters, it should become clear that some don't work as allegories.

 

See GD 16 (WB 57) for an example.

 

Of course, some can be seen in parallel and work on many levels.. but some don't.

 

I also believe that there can be a huge difference between running the state and "running" the human being...

[Taoist Texts]

If the principles are universal, what is the difference between running the cosmos, the State, or the human being?

 

actually kudos to forestofemptiness for positing the issue like that: "running the cosmos". Its a question that LZ took an intense but a passing interest in, answering it with 'the Heaven follows ziran' (the innate autonomous workings). Nobody does run the Heaven, its on a wondrous autopilot with unlimited mileage. So thats that and there is nothing more to say on the issue except imitating it by creating a governing machinery that will runon its own too.