Bagua practice dangers, safety tips

[Trunk]

Curious about dangers, safety tips when practicing bagua.

Seems to me that the knees are the trickiest, but a number of you have much more experience... jump in. Instructional video clips would be cool

[doc benway]

I think one of the most important things is to make sure feet are in line with the knees while stepping around the circle.

There is a tendency to rotate the lower leg inward or outward relative to the knee - this can cause collateral ligament strain, uneven cartilage loading, and even meniscal tears. Turning from the waist and hips is how the feet stay on the tangent to the circle without stressing the knees.

 

Another thing I find enormously useful is standing meditation with the waist rotated, it helps build the isometric core strength that we maintain as we walk the circle and can prevent issues related to back pain.

 

Edited to add standing posture photo

Edited January 3, 2015 by steve

[spiraltao]

The 70% rule should always be used! I also see many trying to twist the upper body out of alignment with the lower thus upsetting the six harmonies. and if one plays their bagua this way they will surely get poor results or even health problems, also I see many people turning the front foot inward, this is bad! It should slide like as if one was on rollerblades at an angle while the outside leg hooks in. Find your natural gait, not to wide, not to narrow.

I think one of the biggest things that many people might hurt themselves with is trying to skip steps in training, one's body take a while to transform and we should not push it. No pain no gain, is the antithesis of baguazhang play. It should leave you feeling full of energy and long breath. If done wrong, one may get dizzy or even have heart issues.

The eyes should follow the hand, this will help keep one from looking at their feet, this will lead to bad posture and if we train bad posture we are not training bagua. I hope this helps. I am very sleepy and for some reason I kould not kopy and paste so no "see"s, sorry.

I fully agree with the above poster that Zhan Zhuang is a must when doing any martial art even external ones have stanse work. The ZZ shows us the path to long, easy, unlabored breath and how to maintain proper body posture. It is harder to stand still than move.

[idquest]

Twisting at lumbar spine could create real problems. I remember that cute girl at a local school who said she'd have to drop out after two months of training. When I asked why, she said that because of bagua training she started to experience pain in the lumbar area of the spine.

 

The point was that when we started, we were instructed to assume a dragon posture with a twist, and then instructors would require 'twist more, twist more'. Now I understand that the turning/twisting appearance should come from turning of pelvis without any substantial turning of spine at lumbar. But a number of students just didn't have enough flexibility in their hips and they compensated the shortage of angling by engaging spine at lumbar.

 

My current understanding is that turning/twisting at midriff area could be required for enhanced martial performance and should be trained very carefully under supervision. But for health training I don't see any reason why one would risk their health and turn\twist at midriff at all.

[soaring crane]

antother great topic from Trunk. Thanks, man :-)

 

I'm far from experienced or qualified to speak from personal experiences, but I have been lucky enough to attend two high intensity workshops with a teacher who I believe gives "the real deal".

 

Just as has been stated above, the two things he stresses the most are the knee angle to the foot (the knee is a hinge joint) and the hip/pelvic work (do no perform autochiropractic alignments on your spine).

 

To help with the knee joint, get into the habit of keeping the weight shifted to the outer edge of the foot (think of the yang heel vessel/ Yang Qiao Mai) and more "x-legged" than knock-kneed, but nothing like extreme. A 60/40 or 70/30 ratio is what to shoot for. This is basic stuff in any qigong, really.

 

To help with the hips, well, you have to get in touch with them. Walk from the hips. We did a LOT of this kind of exercie in the workshops. When the inner hip moves downward to the rear (one way of seeig it) the outer leg will move forward, and follow the circle automatically. The outer hip then moves backward, drawing the inner leg to the outer. Then the inner hip moves inward, finishing the bai, inner step ... Ok, better stop here before I get too far above my station.

 

The ZZ is of course a foundation of any form and the turned hip stance is a huge part of Bagua.

[Walker]

I am no master but I have trained baguazhang since 2008 with four teachers, two in Beijing, one in Shanghai, and one Chinese teacher in the US. I have lived in China for almost all of that span in time. My only substantial breaks in practice over these years have been due to illness or injury. I generally train movement practices about two hours a day, sometimes much more, and rarely less than an hour. I give this background info so that you can adjust the size of your salt grain accordingly.

 

The question of how to protect the knees is very important. It also relates to what, in my opinion, is one of the best instructions I have received in baguazhang: below the waist, one should only be creating scissor-like movements (ie, the legs only move forwards and backwards like scissors, with almost no twisting coming out of the ankles, knees, or hips). Horizontal movements should only come from the waist and up (thus, one's twist at the waist is only correct if, no matter how far one twists, the kua does not turn with the waist; in standing practice, even the knees should not be affected by your waist twist). To be sure, if one practices in this way, this means that movements do not come from the kua, meaning that this instruction goes against much of the "conventional wisdom" that's out there. It was not until I began training with my current teacher that I even got a clear answer as to what, exactly, one should be doing with the kua. His answer contradicted much of what I had been told before, as the teacher I was with previously was all about moving from the kua. However, under my current teacher's tutelage for the last 14 or so months I have watched my body become both far more powerful as well as the most pain-free it has been since before I started puberty. Given that few of us need to worry about hand-to-hand combat unless we have big-ass chips on our shoulders that get us into fisticuffs, the latter point is very important. I would also ask anybody who thinks what I have been told is wrong a simple question: are you pain-free, or going in that direction? If so, then I see no reason to believe that your way is not, also, a good way. If they answer is no, then I suggest caution. The whole point of Daoism-derived martial arts is healthy longevity.

 

Other than that, though it's been said before and will be said again and again, I'll throw my two cents onto the beaten horse, too: having a good, in person teacher who can give you oral instructions and use his/her hands to help you find proper posture is essential. I don't believe that anybody, even a so-called "athletic genius," can find proper posture without hands-on instruction. I just don't buy it, and I've got a childhood buddy who's a multiple gold medal Olympian--even though I remember that he could become competent at any sport with far less practice than the rest of us, he still needed coaching, including countless thousands of hours of it in the sport he medaled in. Now, if you try to practice from books or videos but you're essentially just walking/dancing around in a circle while doing some hand movements, of course you're not likely to hurt yourself (I personally don't oppose anybody practicing baguazhang as a walk-dance, as I believe doing so can contribute to deep relaxation and improved health--more power to whomever finds these things!). However, it is those who love to practice with discipline and yet lack proper instruction who suffer most. Their good intentions, sincerity, and practice ethic, etc. won't save them unless they've got some very lucky stars shining down on them. Indeed, it ain't fair... but, whaddyagonnado?

Edited January 5, 2015 by Walker

[Trunk]

wow, thank you everyone for contributing.

 

There is a phrase / principle, "separating the waist from the hips" that is relevant to several posts.

That's my 2 cents.

 

rock on

[zerostao]

Twisting at lumbar spine could create real problems. I remember that cute girl at a local school who said she'd have to drop out after two months of training. When I asked why, she said that because of bagua training she started to experience pain in the lumbar area of the spine.

 

The point was that when we started, we were instructed to assume a dragon posture with a twist, and then instructors would require 'twist more, twist more'. Now I understand that the turning/twisting appearance should come from turning of pelvis without any substantial turning of spine at lumbar. But a number of students just didn't have enough flexibility in their hips and they compensated the shortage of angling by engaging spine at lumbar.

 

My current understanding is that turning/twisting at midriff area could be required for enhanced martial performance and should be trained very carefully under supervision. But for health training I don't see any reason why one would risk their health and turn\twist at midriff at all.

 

you are right about being careful with the twisting, torquing, waist but i find health benefits from this. start slow and never force, gentle stretching. its coiling and uncoiling, and little by little and over time these slight compressions are good for the organs,, same with the spine including my lumbar. its alot about stretching and gaining fluid dynamics. big gains for me are shoulder blades and hips, my knees never better, can create vortexes, for me really fun stuff, circles and circles and never dizzy. sure it could be useful with the martial aspect but these are health benefits.

edit> need to do it all properly and remember slow as you go starting off

Edited January 6, 2015 by zerostao

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

I have much to learn yet...!
Thanks for this thread! I'll keep an eye on it for sure!

[freeform]

I'm very much a beginner, but I've had an exceptional teacher. His emphasis is on getting leg conditioning done before even starting to walk the circle.

 

There are a number of drills all done in a straight line. The drills also included doing continuous ko bu - ba bu walking - this was instrumental in getting the joints to line up correctly as a habit before adding complexity.

 

It takes a number of months of daily effort to get the correct conditioning, but it does mean that once you move onto circle walking and the palm changes, the legwork will come effortlessly.

Edited January 7, 2015 by freeform

[doc benway]

Twisting at lumbar spine could create real problems. I remember that cute girl at a local school who said she'd have to drop out after two months of training. When I asked why, she said that because of bagua training she started to experience pain in the lumbar area of the spine.

 

The point was that when we started, we were instructed to assume a dragon posture with a twist, and then instructors would require 'twist more, twist more'. Now I understand that the turning/twisting appearance should come from turning of pelvis without any substantial turning of spine at lumbar. But a number of students just didn't have enough flexibility in their hips and they compensated the shortage of angling by engaging spine at lumbar.

 

My current understanding is that turning/twisting at midriff area could be required for enhanced martial performance and should be trained very carefully under supervision. But for health training I don't see any reason why one would risk their health and turn\twist at midriff at all.

 

I'd like to respond to this post.

 

The rotational motion of the torso used in bagua occurs primarily in two areas - the hip joints and the lumbar spine.

If you look at photos of any bagua master (such as my post above), the degree that they rotate clearly indicates full rotation of both areas.

 

There is so little motion in the pelvis (sacroiliac joints and symphysis pubis) that it's contribution to rotation is negligible.

Each level of the lumbar spine allows a small amount of rotation (~ 3º), when all 6 levels of motion are added, the amount of motion is considerable. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2223353/). This lumbar rotation is natural and something we make use of throughout our day. It is nothing to be afraid of.

 

The hip joints allow for quite a bit of rotational movement. The standing and walking bagua posture restricts how much rotational motion occurs at the hip joints - my guess is in the 5 - 10º range but I don't know of any data to confirm this.

 

Finally, there is a little bit of rotation occurring in the thoracic spine, shoulders, neck, and legs. The rotation should be felt as a wave of rotational energy propagating from the root to the crown. Eventually, that rotational energy is the focus but in the beginning proper posture and mechanics is the focus.

 

I agree that no one should force the motion beyond what is comfortable and physically possible, but it is fundamentally important in bagua to engage the muscles in the axis of the body to have a continuous, isometric contraction occurring that is continuously creating a rotational momentum as we stand or walk the circle. This is the core exercise. Without it, we are not practicing bagua, IMO.

 

The basic martial tool of bagua is using the turning of the "waist" (hips and spine) as a weapon.

From a health and fitness perspective, maintaining flexibility of the hips and spine through exercise is an important method for reducing pain, weakness, and stiffness. Maintaining strength of the core trunk musculature (the very muscles we are exercising while maintaining isometric rotation of the axial skeleton) is a well established method of promoting a wide variety of health benefits (reference yoga, pilates, etc..).

 

Don't fear the rotation, embrace it! Yes, the muscles and joints will be sore and tired in the beginning but that will improve. And if it doesn't improve, maybe bagua is not the best activity to engage in - try taijiquan...

 

Just my $.02.

[doc benway]

wow, thank you everyone for contributing.

 

There is a phrase / principle, "separating the waist from the hips" that is relevant to several posts.

That's my 2 cents.

 

rock on

 

Sorry to be contrary (it is my nature and I am working on that ), however, this may be an interesting concept but I don't really think it has much value.

Yes, it is important to have a feeling for what motion is occurring at the hips and what is occurring at the "waist" (any motion occurirng at the waist is actually rotation of the lumbar spine).

On the other hand, I don't think there is any meaningful separation of the two in practice or application.

They work together as an integrated unit at all times in my experience.

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

I'm very much a beginner, but I've had an exceptional teacher. His emphasis is on getting leg conditioning done before even starting to walk the circle.

 

There are a number of drills all done in a straight line. The drills also included doing continuous ko bu - ba bu walking - this was instrumental in getting the joints to line up correctly as a habit before adding complexity.

 

It takes a number of months of daily effort to get the correct conditioning, but it does mean that once you move onto circle walking and the palm changes, the legwork will come effortlessly.

 

This is largely what i have been told too, as well as experienced! I havent drilled my ko bu and bai bu as well as i ought to have, but i've been working on leg strength like a crazy mofo. I've come to sink my weight while i walk, almost constantly.

 

Squats are great, and leg stretches are a MUST if you ask me.

 

Walking the circle is no easy feat! (easy feet? HAH! then you're not doing it right! )

[joeblast]

when starting to learn the circle just doing ko bu - ba bu, keep the arms in that wuji zhan zhuan posture, you're not doing much of anything with them, so focus on the steppin.

[Gerard]

Curious about dangers, safety tips when practicing bagua.

 

The Monkey mind is the most important danger as it leads to poor form, tension and ultimately imbalance and blocked Qi. Doing too much also not good, approach this art as a long term investment with periods of inactivity in order to settle things down a bit (akin to preparing sourdough bread):

 

"Making sourdough bread at home requires knowledge, patience, and the desire to experiment because you may not get the results that you want the first time. If you want quick bread, forget about sourdough."

 

Also be aware that Bagua will release all the emotional and psychic blockages (karmic related) you have accumulated in your evolution as a 'soul', so make sure you have good access to acupuncture/herbal and massage therapy to deal with all that 'gunk.' Painful but necessary process.

 

You need to learn how your mind-body operates and fine tune your practice as a result, hence it's a very personal journey.

 

The Five Pillars of Destiny reading and a further explanation of what it entails will give you a good insight of the element you are lacking, which should be the main focus of practice) while regulating the 'insulting' element and the one it controls; excess metal harms wood; excess wood restrains earth, etc.

Edited January 19, 2015 by Gerard

[yugenphoenix]

I'm very much a beginner, but I've had an exceptional teacher. His emphasis is on getting leg conditioning done before even starting to walk the circle.

 

There are a number of drills all done in a straight line. The drills also included doing continuous ko bu - ba bu walking - this was instrumental in getting the joints to line up correctly as a habit before adding complexity.

 

It takes a number of months of daily effort to get the correct conditioning, but it does mean that once you move onto circle walking and the palm changes, the legwork will come effortlessly.

Did you learn from Park Bok Nam's lineage or him personally?  I have two of his books and those drills sound familiar from it.