Primordial Spirit: Heart or Head?

[Wells]

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Edited February 11, 2015 by ZOOM

[C T]

Where is the seat of the Primordial Spirit (Buddha Nature, Xing, Shiva)?

Some old buddhist traditions like Dzogchen locate it in the heart,

some old taoist sources like "The Secret Of the Golden Flower" locate it in the head in the region of the eyebrows.

Texts of newer schools which were amalgamized out of buddhist and taoist sources like the text in the book "Taoist Yoga" came to the compromise that the seat of primordial spirit is in the heart, but its cavity is in the head between and behind the eyes or eyebrows.

I also remember that the first Kundalini Yoga book I've read, an old used book from the 70's or even 60's which lacked today's new-age-touch, described that the primordial energy Shakti had to rise to the top of the head and then forward to the eyebrow region where it would fuse with primordial spirit Shiva, which was located there and that this would lead to enlightenment.

 

Opinions, other sources

Primordial spirit is a Dzogchen term? And it means Buddha nature? This is the first time i have heard of it.

[Jeff]

I would agree with CT. Shiva and Buddha nature are not the same thing. Primordial Spirit would seem to describe something more in line with a "One".

 

Best,

Jeff

[Wells]

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Edited February 11, 2015 by ZOOM

[ralis]

I would agree with CT. Shiva and Buddha nature are not the same thing. Primordial Spirit would seem to describe something more in line with a "One".

 

Best,

Jeff

 

By what case in fact are you able to provide proof of your supposition that Shiva and Buddha are not the same?

 

What is the problem with "one"?

Edited January 4, 2015 by ralis

[Nungali]

You two ! Please keep fighting at the family Christmas table - where it belongs

 

 

Back to the topic - where do I see it?

 

 

In the DNA code.

 

 

I am increasingly seeing things generated in a cyclic medium of feedback and new generation, or 'circulation'

 

Ultimate origins ? Hmmm. Thats the mystery; how 'nothing' but 'experience' generate expressions and divisions from the 'One' ... or the 'None.'

 

In a way, I am no longer concerned with the origin of the dynamic, but how the dynamic works now.

 

Of course my idea of 'spirit' might be v.diff from yours.

 

I see spirit as the essence of the thing itself ... the things that make Nungali ... Nungali, the personality, the traits, the built in programmes that surface and re - fluctuate ( I have one Uncle like me out the whole family, our lives have played out in very similar patterns that are a variety of 'theme'- of the spirit in quite remarkable ways).

 

"Soul' I see as something completely different.

Edited January 4, 2015 by Nungali

[Wells]

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Edited February 11, 2015 by ZOOM

[C T]

Interdisciplinary thinking and comparing is most likely necessary to discuss the topic of the thread.

All those traditions describe the same human being,

so it can be assumed that several traditions describe the same fundamental elements with different tradition-dependant terms.

I agree, but im suggesting to get the terms right for each tradition. For example, its not clear that there is such a term as 'primordial spirit' to be found in any of the Dzogchen texts i have read. Not saying i have read a lot of texts, but it would be interesting if you could provide sources where you have come across this term being used (in relation to Dzogchen, that is).

[voidisyinyang]

I wud defer to the Taoist Yoga book as this is the Taoist forum and having just reread much of the book - it does focus on the "Oneness" - so the real issue here is the difference between "essential nature" as the Emptiness and as Taoist Yoga states "real Nature." The later "real nature" is created only after essential nature as yin descends as spirit from the heart to the sea of chi - via emptiness meditation - thereby creating the lower tan tien and when the foundation is established the middle tan tien creates yang qi which begins to open up the upper tan tien as the cavity of spirit-vitality or "true vitality."

 

O.K. so you have spirit in the heart but it is still "yin shen" - or what Taoist Yoga calls "relative void" - you can see it with your eyes close as you begin to build up yin chi in the lower tan tien. But it's only when you can see light outside your head - in front of you - that you have actually opened up the cavity of spirit-vitality as yang qi - as a Tai Chi experience or enlightenment experience.

 

So that experience then is a oneness experience that Taoist Yoga describes with Buddhist terms - "neti, neti" logic - "neither this, nor that."

 

Also it is emphasized that you can not really place a location on the source of pre-natal spirit-vitality.

 

But the original qigong master calls prenatal spirit-vitality "unconditional love."

 

It is like Ramana Maharshi saying it is on the right side of the heart - why? Well mind yoga is left brain meditation using logical inference - and actually the reptilian left side vagus nerve goes to the right side of the heart and stops the heart. Ramana Maharshi had his heart stop - after that achieving permanent samadhi. The original qigong master also had this experience - he said his heart stopped for over 2 hours but he was still walking around. haha. He doesn't recommend it for people but just says this is possible - why? His spirit energy was not just "yin shen" but it was spirit-vitality - the qi-shen combination that is actually the truth of Oneness - of the Universe or the Emptiness, etc. It is not bound to any location.

 

We can't "see" the Emptiness but we can listen to it - that's why it's called Mouna Samadhi - and from the Emptiness is created the prenatal true vitality. So there is a physiological correlation but that process of listening creates the yin and yang from the Emptiness as an eternal process that we are just a part of - we can resonate with it - but it's not defined by physical location.

 

It's like the qigong master says that the foundation of reality is actually more like 2 dimensional and the 3-D world is collapsed into the 2D one like a holographic - but even more so it is like it is defined by time that can not be seen - yet the time is eternal.

Edited January 4, 2015 by Innersoundqigong

[dawei]

~~~ ADMIN ACTION ~~~

 

UnLocked and cleaned up... let's stay more on topic

 

 

CT has a right to question the opening post which comments "traditions like Dzogchen locate it in the heart"

 

Zoom can answer, if he wants.

 

It seems to me that, as Zoom said later, "Interdisciplinary thinking", is the key... it may not really cross-over exactly in terminology.... or it may. Who knows till we discuss it more.

 

To me, this term is clearly Taoist, but I can't say if any equivalent in other tradition. Talk on.

[Wells]

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Edited February 11, 2015 by ZOOM

[Wells]

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Edited February 11, 2015 by ZOOM

[dawei]

Ok, to look at the Taoist idea... see:

 

The Encyclopedia of Taoism: 2-volume set

edited by Fabrizio Pregadio

 

Tai Yi (The Great One) is the Primordial Spirit which embraces all...

 

And see my topic on The Great One is Not Dao

 

 

To get to the topic question of where is it stored

 

First: The mind is a part of the heart in classical chinese; Xin means "Heart-Mind". Maybe call it the heart of the mind which communicates with The Great One.

 

But the primordial spirit is stored in the heart. Once we let go of the local-ego-mind, heart-mind gets a truer connection/communication to the spirit.

 

JMO

[Wells]

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Edited February 11, 2015 by ZOOM

[Wells]

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Edited January 4, 2015 by ZOOM

[C T]

First: The mind is a part of the heart in classical chinese; Xin means "Heart-Mind". Maybe call it the heart of the mind which communicates with The Great One. (Dawei)

The closest definition of Heart-mind from a Vajrayana standpoint is Bodhicitta, which some masters have translated into English as the heart of enlightened mind, although a more acute translation would be Enlightened (Bodhi) Aspiration (Citta) , meaning, a mind that is unwaveringly turned in the direction of enlightenment.

Edited January 4, 2015 by C T

[C T]

Therefore, it was no logical fault to use Dzogchen in that sentence, as the buddha nature (as far I understand) is one of many terms used in Dzogchen to describe the (function of) the energy in the heart that flows through the kati channel and that is able to enlighten a person.

Buddha nature not only describes abstractly the potential of a conscious being for enlightenment but also the ability to enlighten of a concrete component of the conscious being.

The tathagatagarbha (buddha nature) is not a concrete component. It is not some storehouse of power which one can plug into to draw energy for enlightenment.

[Wells]

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Edited February 11, 2015 by ZOOM

[Wells]

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Edited February 11, 2015 by ZOOM

[Wells]

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Edited February 11, 2015 by ZOOM

[Wells]

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Edited February 11, 2015 by ZOOM

[ralis]

The tathagatagarbha (buddha nature) is not a concrete component. It is not some storehouse of power which one can plug into to draw energy for enlightenment.

 

Not concrete as in one is not able to experience with the senses? If so, then you are denying the psychobiological component.

Edited January 4, 2015 by ralis

[ralis]

Anyways,

I would really like to hear some more quotes from texts from other (if possible: old) schools and traditions

about their opinion about the alleged dwelling place of the original spirit (or their closest analog / counterpart)

in the human being.

 

Does anyone know what the Kabbalah claims for example?

 

Ein Sof is translated as 'totality' in the Kabbalah.

Edited January 4, 2015 by ralis

[C T]

Not concrete as in one is not able to experience with the senses? If so, then you are denying the psychobiological component.

 

The senses are compounded and dependently originated.

Edited January 4, 2015 by C T

[Wells]

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Edited February 11, 2015 by ZOOM