Primordial Spirit: Heart or Head?

[ralis]

Exactly!

It makes sense that if I practice an exercise on my own from a taoist lay people manual, the result is enlightenment, immortality and full control over my destiny (birth & death),

but if I practice the same exercise from a restricted Dzogchen manual on my own without the blessings of a Dzogchen master, it leads to (and I quote!) "mental derangement"!

 

Perhaps, even practicing under the auspices of a Dzogchen master, could lead to mental derangement.

[3bob]

BS! The relevant texts say it is a pillar!

 

Is that so?

[C T]

Is that the best you can offer?

its the only response appropriate to your babble

[C T]

Exactly!

It makes sense that if I practice an exercise on my own from a taoist lay people manual, the result is enlightenment, immortality and full control over my destiny (birth & death),

but if I practice the same exercise from a restricted Dzogchen manual on my own without the blessings of a Dzogchen master, it leads to (and I quote!) "mental derangement"!

Pretty much, as evidenced from those here who claim to have a long history of Dzogchen exposure but whose intents are still fairly suspect.

Edited January 4, 2015 by C T

[Wells]

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Edited February 11, 2015 by ZOOM

[ralis]

its the only response appropriate to your babble

 

Babble? I think you don't want your beliefs challenged. If you are comfortable with authoritarian Lamas, then go right ahead, but don't expect independent thinkers to follow your ideological guilt trips.

 

Why not add to the topic at hand as opposed to derailing it. I wonder why some Buddhists behave in this manner.

[Wells]

.

Edited February 11, 2015 by ZOOM

[ralis]

Pretty much, as evidenced from those here who claim to have a long history of Dzogchen exposure but whose intents are still fairly suspect.

 

If carried to its logical conclusion, Dzogchen has no rules. Self responsibility, unburdening of BS and so forth are part of the natural state.

Edited January 4, 2015 by ralis

[Brian]

Physics seeks now to unravel the first few fractions of a second of the universe as we know it. In the process, we are learning that all forces and their carrier particles appear to have differentiated from one unified force/source/whatever, and ee are also struggling to understand the nature of space-time itself. In my opinion, the problem of dark "stuff" (matter & energy) reveals a major problem, analogous to the dilemma in the late 1800s which brought us relativity and quantum electrodynamics in the 20th century. A whole new paradigm is on the horizon but it MUST maintain consistency with current understandings in the same way that current understandings maintain consistency with Newton. Maxwell's equations will continue to work because they DO work -- and beautifully so.

 

The observed world is totally real -- and, at the same time, it is totally unreal. This paradox simply is. The superficial scientist sees uncertainty as something to eliminate. The natural philosopher sees it as part of the puzzle. Relaxing into it is the key, not intellectualism. This in no way diminishes the value or reward of pursuing answers but "the answer" is not rational.

 

3bob is on-target -- we are blind men arguing about an elephant, as if we could solve the problem or win the debate through sheer brain-power. When we take off our thinking caps, though, we discover they had blinders attached all along.

 

Probably not the reply you were seeking but...

 

<shrug>

[ralis]

Physics seeks now to unravel the first few fractions of a second of the universe as we know it. In the process, we are learning that all forces and their carrier particles appear to have differentiated from one unified force/source/whatever, and ee are also struggling to understand the nature of space-time itself. In my opinion, the problem of dark "stuff" (matter & energy) reveals a major problem, analogous to the dilemma in the late 1800s which brought us relativity and quantum electrodynamics in the 20th century. A whole new paradigm is on the horizon but it MUST maintain consistency with current understandings in the same way that current understandings maintain consistency with Newton. Maxwell's equations will continue to work because they DO work -- and beautifully so.

 

The observed world is totally real -- and, at the same time, it is totally unreal. This paradox simply is. The superficial scientist sees uncertainty as something to eliminate. The natural philosopher sees it as part of the puzzle. Relaxing into it is the key, not intellectualism. This in no way diminishes the value or reward of pursuing answers but "the answer" is not rational.

 

3bob is on-target -- we are blind men arguing about an elephant, as if we could solve the problem or win the debate through sheer brain-power. When we take off our thinking caps, though, we discover they had blinders attached all along.

 

Probably not the reply you were seeking but...

 

<shrug>

 

I appreciate your addition to the discussion. Semantic constructs only go so far and then.......

[Brian]

BTW, it is all about vibration.

[Nungali]

As far as I remember, Ein Sof expresses itself through Kether and Kether is connected to / located in the crown point of the head in the practice of the "middle pillar"...?

 

I think of cause of the crown chakra,

the addition of the crown region of the head to our list makes sense anyway!

 

Thats a Golden dawn innovation. An 'Hermetic Kabbalistic' one - not traditional.

[Nungali]

A kabbalist would say it comes from God (easy way out)

 

More complex answer ... hmmmm ... what school of Kabbalism ?

Edited January 4, 2015 by Nungali

[3bob]

BTW, it is all about vibration.

 

Agreed, and I'd also add the idea of vibration that is so fast that is already everywhere at once and standing still.

[C T]

If carried to its logical conclusion, Dzogchen has no rules. Self responsibility, unburdening of BS and so forth are part of the natural state.

Agreed

[C T]

Agreed

But the natural state needs to be stabilised, and the process is a long one, which, without proper guidance, can lead to unnecessary deviations - thats the point made.

[C T]

Ok, I practice the exact same exercise from the friendly taoist laymen manual then...

There are 'hidden' aspects to inner cultivation which only live (and qualified) teachers can help clarify.

 

For example, a certain mantra is given in a manual which a self-taught practitioner then chants without knowing the exact tonal range for each syllable - the benefit to be gotten would be much less than if a guru were to be on hand to point out the finer aspects of how to chant correctly for max benefit. This is looking at it positively.

 

Sometimes some mantras can induce more harm than good if empowerments have not been received (to chant) - then it could be problematic, and we can see here (on TTB) what happens to people utilising 'secret' mantras without knowing the full spectrum of the subtleties involved. They just read from manuals a certain mantra can help bring prosperity, or clear blockages, and they start chanting it, and next thing, they begin to experience weirdness and entity disturbance and other interesting things.

Edited January 4, 2015 by C T

[Jetsun]

It is not in the heart rather the heart is an access point or gateway. As far as I know there are two main ways traditions go about it, they raise the energy up so it ends up going out above the crown chakra into emptiness, like in kundalini type yoga traditions, or you go in, through and behind the heart, which is the way the traditions I practice go about it. Perhaps there are other gateways but I am not aware of them and I am not aware of the head or third eye being a gateway, rather it is an area of extra sensory perception.

 

As mentioned Ramana Maharshi said you can track the sense of identity energetically and it goes to the heart, but it doesn't stop there, you have to keep on going until you get to where the wave can merge into the ocean. But you wont find a location there, rather it is a dissolving of identity barriers so you can become aware that everything is primordial spirit, you find it everywhere you look.

[Tibetan_Ice]

Primordial nature lies in the heart...

 

From http://www.yogichen.org/cw/cw32/bk084.html

 

And

 

http://www.yogichen.org/cw/cw32/bk085.html

 

 

Torga

 

Torga means transcendent. It is rarer than Che-cho. If you only practice Che-cho, you cannot see the ten directions of the Buddhas Pure Land perfectly. You cannot save sentient beings fully. You cannot dissolve the inner and outer five elements of the flesh body to transform them into the five wisdom lights. In other words, you could not use your meditative power to change your flesh body into a light body (literally). But Torga can do it automatically.

 

For example, Padmasambhava, Tilopa, and Naropa all attained the wisdom rainbow-body of light. They all achieved the perfect Nirvana. If you only practice Che-cho you can get some wisdom light, but this kind of light is of the inner mind or the inner heart or the consciousness transformed into light. It does not have the power to completely sublimate all the flesh into light. But Torga has such a technique to get this highest attainment.

 

Now if you want to know the principles behind this Torga practice, you must know the following text:

 

All sentient beings Minds are connected with their own energy. These two are non-dualistic; because sentient beings hold the volition that Mind and Energy are separate (dualistic) they cannot harmonize them, and they see two things. But in truth the mind of sentient beings and their wisdom energy fundamentally are in oneness. The natural wisdom light always abides in the flesh heart. But sentient beings are deluded and ride on the disturbed energy which penetrates to the lungs.

 

This is like a man who has no feet and rides a horse which has no eyes. Mind and Energy cannot rely upon each other so they run without direction. Hence, the six organs of sense and their six objects create many, many delusions, and many, many sorrows, and they suffer many, many times in the transmigration.

 

If you can mediate and are skilled in samatha, and can stop all the running mind and the running karmic energy, then your mind and energy will return to their original wisdom. If you can meditate on the wisdom energy to attain the first stage of a Bodhisattva, your wisdom is increased and all the practices of Tantra will be very easy to recognize.

 

So one should know that the entity of wisdom and the natural wisdom light originally abide in the flesh heart. Through the special methods and the Gurus oral instructions, one may naturally make the connection with the six kinds of light and make them to be manifested perfectly.

 

 

[thelerner]

A couple of my practices look to unite the 3 dantiens, lower middle upper. As we advance- we awaken, develop and link them. While they have specialties, in essence they are are not so different and each has aspects of the others within.

[Wells]

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Edited February 11, 2015 by ZOOM

[C T]

The "relevant texts" also say that the earth is flat and that a snake shows its legs when you squeeze it, right?

So much for the absolute truth of the "relevant texts"...

haha another joker in the midst... thats like something we hear out of a Beavis & Butthead strip

[ralis]

haha another joker in the midst... thats like something we hear out of a Beavis & Butthead strip

 

The Mount Meru symbol is an medieval anthropocentric view. The text states that the sun circles Mount Meru. Why not go back to the days when the church ruled and burned at the stake anyone that questioned the view, that the sun circled the earth.

Edited January 6, 2015 by ralis

[Brian]

Oh, no -- not just the Sun but all of the heavenly bodies. Mount Meru is also described as being more than 80 times taller than the Earth's diameter and just as wide, and the home of Brahma. I don't think this was meant to be taken as a literal physical description...

[ralis]

Oh, no -- not just the Sun but all of the heavenly bodies. Mount Meru is also described as being more than 80 times taller than the Earth's diameter and just as wide, and the home of Brahma. I don't think this was meant to be taken as a literal physical description...

 

Of course it is not literal, but I know a few who do believe it to be a physical phenomenon.