Can we not love our brother as ourselves?

[manitou]

Hey. I know we worship the concept of free speech in the West. Even the Tao Te Ching would bear this out to some degree: when rules are necessary, the Tao is lost. I get it.

 

But is there no point at which human kindness can intermingle with free speech? Do we here in the West have to impose our worship of free speech on those who do not share the same value? Are we to expect that disrespectful cartoons of the prophet Mohammed should not utterly enrage the other sections of the world? Have we no brains at all?

 

We've been brought up in a society of (relatively) free speech, and social media and the 24/7 news cycle is bringing many cultures into the mesh of free speech - where we absolutely WORSHIP the right to say whatever we want to say, however disrespectful it may be to other cultures. Well, what would the Christians here in the U.S. do if an Arabic newspaper did a nice big cartoon of Jesus Christ impaled on a rocket launcher? Are we to expect that the Christians would take it in stride? Heck, no! There would be absolute cries for war and retaliation, and we would find ways to do it.

 

And how hypocritical are we, anyway? We love Free Speech when it is us speaking out or mocking others (under the guise of satire or comedy, of course); and yet, look at how many words we are "not allowed to say" here in the states. The political correctness of it all. This whole situation sickens me; our country is a mockery of free speech.

 

But at what point does human kindness and empathy play any part in this? We would not mock another's religious point of view to their face, and yet do we not have the wisdom to know that Everybody thinks 'theirs is the right way, that they have the answer?' And in a sense, we ALL have the answer. It's right within us, whether atheist, Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, Taoist.

 

It is the seed planted within each of our hearts which reaches out to understand who we really are that is the commonality - and that is the Proof that there is something more. Even an atheist will go to great lengths to argue over and over that it's not in there. If that 'thing' weren't in there, why spend so much time arguing about it not being there?

 

It's just a question of where in the world we were born that determines which religious structure we had the fortune to be born into. That's all they are - structures to be transcended and the mystic identity to be found.

 

The only hope for this planet, as I see it, is for all of mankind to realize that all paths lead to the same place. Every master of any tradition I've ever read, and I've read and loved comparative religion for years, all come to the same conclusion, regardless of the contortions of the particular path he took.

 

We cannot stop this division by shoving the concept of free speech down the throats of the rest of the world. Especially when that free speech is disrespectful to that which they hold dear; to mock their religious icons by mean spiritedness hiding behind the guise of satire. It's mean. It's just plain mean.

 

The only answer is to realize that we are all Brothers and Sisters, that we are all apples on the same tree. The only thing left, it seems, is to find a way to let love in.

 

I would not be offended at all if Western leaders extended themselves, put aside our collective national ego, and made a real effort to reach out to the radical elements and countries that we have offended so many times. (Okay, I know....I can hear the hollerings of 'what about 9/11?'.) In my opinion at the time of 9/11, the wise thing to do would have been to shore up our internal defenses, and then to look for the root of the problem. To nip it in the bud, as the wise Sage would have done. Not to have gone ballistic and come out of the gate shooting at anything that moved.

 

The radical elements will not reach out to us; there has been too much damage done. Too many young men on the other side of the world have grown up under the foot of the Western soldiers, the checkpoints, the searches, the control, seeing the Allied forces controlling their every move. We've made more enemies than we ever possibly thought we could have, and now we have to rub salt into the wound with satire???

 

We are so myopic. We see ourselves, our wants and desires, our need for energy (which was probably the start of all this hostility in the early 1900's when we started pulling oil out of the ground in Saudi Arabia and were considered Infidels because we were standing on their beloved and sacred ground). Can't we for once look through the eyes of those on the other side of the equation?

 

They are our Brothers, damn it! Can we not start loving them as ourselves? Does it have to be 'us against them' from here on in? Or is there any way under heaven that we can change it with Love?

Edited January 8, 2015 by manitou

[liminal_luke]

I´m not personally designing political cartoons that inflame the moral indignation of people in, say, the Middle East-- but I know what it feels like not to be at peace. Over the years, I´ve been more than a little worked up about some conversations right here on Taobums. And sometimes I´ve lashed out. And I´ve read posts by others who have lashed out and got caught up in the ridiculous drama of it all.

 

As above, so below. The larger disharmony between religious groups, is mirrored by the tensions right here on the forum, is mirrored by the tension in my jaw that I feel when I quiet down and breath.

 

Liminal

[Aetherous]

Well, what would the Christians here in the U.S. do if an Arabic newspaper did a nice big cartoon of Jesus Christ impaled on a rocket launcher? Are we to expect that the Christians would take it in stride? Heck, no! There would be absolute cries for war and retaliation, and we would find ways to do it.

 

Christianity is wiped through the mud constantly worldwide, and Christians don't go off and do the same types of terrorist activities because of it. I'm quite sure that the magazine in question has defamed Christianity (at least that's what I've been told today), and there's no terrorism happening because of it.

 

It's a great point to consider that these people are still our Brothers. As Christians could think, these terrorists are children of the creator just like us. Perhaps just misguided. Christians in particular believe in mercy toward all, even those who don't deserve it. Buddhists feel similarly, with compassion toward all.

 

The thing is: these terrorists are doing something horrific and unacceptable. They are murdering innocent civilians. For instance, in France just today, that unarmed cop. He had nothing to do with writing those cartoons! Those who don't stand against this, permit it to happen.

 

I will not be apologetic toward Islam, and say that we should silence our free speech so that they'll stop murdering us.

 

 

Consider a different subject for a second...the discussion of rape. Some falsely claim that because women dress provocatively, they're asking to be raped. Of course any sensible person knows that the rapist could have self control, if they tried...it's not the fault of the woman that she's raped. It's unfortunately the perversion in the rapist, as well as the decision that he makes. (not that only women are raped only by men, it happens all sorts of ways)

 

So consider that "blaming the victim" mentality in light of this terrorist act. "Maybe if you didn't draw satirical cartoons, you wouldn't be murdered". Nope. The fault lies with the murderers alone, as well as those who silently or vocally support their cause.

 

At least personally, I see this whole incident as only being further proof that the satire in such cartoons is necessary. We have a religion, where some of its members think they have the right to be so offended by mere opinions, that they can interfere with the rights (taking the lives) of others. They need to be mocked into submission...they need some humility, and respect. They do not need a victory, by silencing the voices in free countries. We do not need to cater to their demands.

 

We do need more compassion and mercy. To remember that they are our Brothers as humans, and to treat them as such. But sometimes you have to put a brother down, because he's attempting to bash your head in with a rock. It's something that must be done when your life and liberty are threatened by them (or the lives and liberty of other innocent people).

 

To make fun of a religion does not call for the death penalty. But to take an innocent life, does.

Edited January 8, 2015 by Aetherous

[thelerner]

I take it the OP is a plea for understanding for the men who murdered 12 human beings in France?

 

I have none. I would see them painfully killed and call it justice. The psychopath who kills the family next door because of some perceived slight is still guilty of multiple murder. To excuse them is to give a green light to any fanatic of any religion who feels they have they the right to kill others at will for any argument new or old. Historical rationalizing is easy, protecting the innocent not so much.

Edited January 8, 2015 by thelerner

[Aetherous]

I was going to say, "painfully" isn't how I would administer the justice. But I understand that response when the incident is so fresh.

[gatito]

[Silent Answers]

One problem is that most people hate themselves a lot of the time.

[Yasjua]

Many Christians live in countries and societies that are well-developed, stable, peaceful. They're well-educated and exposed to many, many differences in people's religions and whatnot. It hasn't always been that way. Christians used to do terrible things in the name of their Christ-figure.

 

Islamic countries like Syria and Afghanistan and Iraq where these "terrorists" apparently come from are torn up by political and economic turmoil. Many Islamic countries have been in such turmoil for a long time now, and it's not hard to see that the "noble" European and American governments have played a significant role in causing the instability in these countries.

 

The society's influence on the individual is very important and hugely underestimated when these issues are talked about. The education and environment of the individual is very important in determining how that person understands and interprets their world, their religion, their duties, themselves. I don't know as much as manitou on this subject, but it seems like there are people "growing up under the foot" of American and European military, police, politicians, etc. It makes sense to me that they would become extreme in their attempts to preserve national identity, and religion is a huge part of that in many parts of the world. So extremism in Islam is not strictly between the individual/faction and the religion, it's also part of a socio-economic current. These people are in turmoil.

 

Having freedom of speech in the West may excuse us from political and legal ramifications, but to Islamic extremists what these "artists" produce insults their national and religious identity, something that is already under attack and very fragile. I'm not excusing or pardoning murder. What I am saying is that as "more evolved" people, which I personally don't consider satirists to be, we have a responsibility to think holistically and tolerantly, and act in accordance with the good of all.

 

There is a lot of pain and hurt in the developing world. The people of these war-torn countries have been mistreated and unfortunately there are people in positions of privilege who are adding insult to injury by further mocking their religious beliefs. It takes a big, stupid, insensitive ego to go and do something like that. All that said, these killers must have been raised in some very harsh, confusing, and painful environments to be capable of committing such an atrocious crime as this. It's sad both ways. I feel the same way about the Interview movie Sony released. Hitting an angry, traumatized, isolated, rabid dog on the head with a stick, even if you're 4,000 miles away, spells trouble.

[Yasjua]

Worth a read. This woman knows what she's talking about:

 

http://www.salon.com/2014/11/23/karen_armstrong_sam_harris_anti_islam_talk_fills_me_with_despair/

[C T]

To some degree, everyone's a victim of their own emotions. So its not helpful to also respond with emotionality. Then we too become victims. As an example, If we were passing a bus filled with passengers and they are all screaming for help due to some toxic gas slowly leaking into the carriage, we immediately know our priorities - we dont need to discuss first who was behind it, or find out how it happened, nor do we first ponder and mull over who among the passengers deserve more immediate help than others.. these things dont enter our minds during critical moments like these. If it does, we cannot help others with much efficacy.

 

What we now, at this point, dont seem to realise is that every moment is a critical point. Does not mean that the incident in question is over and done with. We only assume its over, and we speak now as if its just another isolated incident because the media says its over and the authorities are now hunting the perps., but this is only an illusion - trust me, its not over by any means... there will be ripples and repercussions, just as this incident is also a carry-over from the past, caused also by undiffused negative emotional reactions from another time - henceforth, we should put more effort to train our minds better since we are somehow never exempted from the reverberations of anything that happens in the world, just a question of degree as to how each of us is affected.

 

Should we react to this new incident emotionally, either for or against does not really matter because fundamentally both are still emotional responses, then we end being like one of those who, in the above bus metaphor, feeling incapable of helping, we excuse ourselves from the actuality and acuteness of that scenario by deferring to secondary issues instead of what needs immediate attention.

 

Neither condone nor condemn acts of violence, but use these troubling occurrences as fuel to practice more resolutely to gain victory over our own tendencies and negative habits, so that we can become more dispassionate and less reactive, and in that manner, gain perfect insight thru which we will be able to help others achieve the same with greater degrees of success.

[Marblehead]

One problem is that most people hate themselves a lot of the time.

I would have "Like"d that eighteen times if the system would allow it.

 

I would even say that it is the biggest problem.

 

If we don't love our self how can we possibly love another?

 

Better to be an Atheist then all you have to argue about is which gods you don't believe in. That would leave room to love each other.

[Jetsun]

The concept of free speech is basically a product of the European Enlightenment which was hard won over a long period of time, to give it up is basically to accept going back to the dark ages, so I think it is an important foundation of a decent society.

 

Also I don't think its true if an Arabic magazine mocked Jesus people would be up in arms, I don't think most people would care, Christianity and Jesus have been freely mocked for generations, have you not seen Monty Python?

[manitou]

It's not Us vs. Them. It's Us vs. Us. Can we not understand that they did not grow up in a free-speech society? That in most cases the worlds they came from are dusty, barren places with no natural resources other than oil - and their feeling is 'what do I have to live for anyway?' We here in the States are accustomed to beautiful mountains, bountiful water, green trees everywhere - all resources at our fingertips. No wonder it is a privilege in their minds to die for their cause. We sit here in our comfortable homes, wherein many live in shacks and off the earth in the Muslim countries. The oil that is sold, the diamonds that are mined - do the people at the bottom see the benefits of these? I don't think so at all.

 

I'm just saying that a little human kindness will go a long way, and to knock it off with the satire that so inflames them. I'm not against free speech, I'm against human unkindness. And in the name of comedy, just to produce a few chuckles, fame, and job security?

 

If we keep this up, what is the end game? Anybody? Anything other than total destruction? The polarization is getting so palpable that it can almost be seen in the air.

 

And as to the police officer shootings - the police unions are so strong and often so mean-spirited (I really do know what I am talking about here - I was a union rep for my division at LAPD) it's turned into an 'Us vs. Civil Rights' issue in some police sectors. Sure, there's plenty of kind cops - but they're not the ones turning their back on the mayor of NY every chance they get.

 

There has to be a meeting of the minds on this, worldwide. If we don't throw our understanding of human nature into the mix and consider it in our actions, then we are fools.

[manitou]

I take it the OP is a plea for understanding for the men who murdered 12 human beings in France?

 

No, the OP is pleading for sanity in our satire and to not be stupid or surprised when people who are not accustomed to the free press reacting as they do. And I've come to the conclusion that death may be the best thing that happens to us, the best experience of our lives perhaps. It only appears awful from this side of the curtain because people fear the unknown. Maybe it's not something to fear at all. Maybe everything is exactly opposite of how it appears to be.

Edited January 8, 2015 by manitou

[Brian]

The concept of free speech is basically a product of the European Enlightenment which was hard won over a long period of time, to give it up is basically to accept going back to the dark ages, so I think it is an important foundation of a decent society. Also I don't think its true if an Arabic magazine mocked Jesus people would be up in arms, I don't think most people would care, Christianity and Jesus have been freely mocked for generations, have you not seen Monty Python?

What's this "Monty Python" of which you speak???

 

 

 

Part of the misunderstanding comes from largely ignoring history and part of it comes from misunderstanding the life and teachings of Mohammad. There are more sources, obviously, but those are pivotal.

[manitou]

 

Yes, you are Charlie. You have stepped out of duality.

So remain out of duality and realize that you are also the gunmen.

[Marblehead]

And I've come to the conclusion that death may be the best thing that happens to ...

them - the extremists who go around killing unarmed women and children.

 

And I wish death upon those who killed those unarmed employees in Paris. And, a painful death. A very slow death.

 

One cannot reason with those types. It is either their way or no way. They have no right to negate the free speech of other when they themselves demand free speech for themselves.

 

Hypocrisy is not a solution. It only creates more problems.

 

And bottom line, it is all for delusion and illusion. They gain nothing and create more hatred against all followers of Islam.

[joeblast]

There has to be a meeting of the minds on this, worldwide. If we don't throw our understanding of human nature into the mix and consider it in our actions, then we are fools.

this exists because the fraud is not prosecuted. not only is it not prosecuted, it is enabled and abetted and given access to the very mechanisms that write law, mete justice, and aedjucitecaate the masses.

 

so when one wonders why this is happening, its the same as every other point in history where a murderous tyrant has decided to go overtake lands and plunder wealth.

 

it aids his quest to divide the masses thereof.

[Jetsun]

It's not Us vs. Them. It's Us vs. Us. Can we not understand that they did not grow up in a free-speech society? That in most cases the worlds they came from are dusty, barren places with no natural resources other than oil - and their feeling is 'what do I have to live for anyway?'

 

It's not been confirmed where they come from, but from witness accounts they spoke perfect French, so if they were not born in France they spent a large proportion of their lives there. Many of these modern terrorists grow up the counties they attack, like the 77 London bombers and the killers of Lee Rigby. I don't think it is a case of misunderstanding some poor downtrodden people, many of these people are given lives of comparative luxury by the countries which they go on to attack.

 

But I understand the message, the gunmen are microcosms of god and part of us, so wanting them to suffer is not a healthy place for us to be in, I would rather have compassion for them then hate them. Yet when I see the video on YouTube how easily they executed the wounded police man on the street who was pleading for mercy without a moments hesitation then something primal arises in me and I can't deny that I would like them to suffer and die.

[GrandmasterP]

Dreadful business.

Such hatred and needless loss of life.

Tragic on so many levels.

Edited January 8, 2015 by GrandmasterP

[Aetherous]

And I've come to the conclusion that death may be the best thing that happens to us, the best experience of our lives perhaps. It only appears awful from this side of the curtain because people fear the unknown. Maybe it's not something to fear at all. Maybe everything is exactly opposite of how it appears to be.

 

What an odd thing to say in this thread; no offense. The Muslims aren't doing anyone a favor by slaughtering them. Why such an apologetic attitude toward these extremists, that you would even say, "death may be the best thing for me"?! Strikes me as a form of Stockholm syndrome.

 

Overall, I appreciate the call for more respect toward our Brothers. It's not going to happen, though. Especially when the "consequences" for disrespect is to be slaughtered by them. People aren't going to accept that...or at least they shouldn't. You will find very few people who agree with you, that "death is the best thing to happen to us".

 

I'm not against free speech, I'm against human unkindness.

 

I am as well. I just view satire as being waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more kind than murder.

[thelerner]

I've been various forms of yoga nidra lately. One thing they have in common is allowing you to repeat a culpa 3 times; asking for a benefit, an aspiration. Today I did a longish one, 42 minutes. I was pretty deep and I requested an open heart.

 

and I'd still kill them (or lifetime imprisonment). I understand why they did it, recognize there uniqueness and value as human beings. I don't buy into an automatic assumption of poor repressed childhoods nor if true does that move me too much. Often these guys are simply murderous thugs.

 

I see an ultimate aim of a world with no music or dancing, forbidding any news, literature or expression that's doesn't fit a tight fundamentalist narrative. A dystopian where all views must conform to the leader's religious zealotry.

[C T]

and I'd still kill them (or lifetime imprisonment).

Thats as good as deed done. Seriously.

 

Dont think for one minute i am pro- senselessness, violence and extremism, no, not at all. My message is simple: We can choose our responses mindfully. Generating a wish to kill, even though the incident does not affect you personally, does not augur well for your spiritual well-being. Do you really, strongly believe that the way to counter violence is thru (more) violence? Im sorry, but i dont share this sentiment at all.

 

Its easy for me or anyone to play the blame game, but trust me, anyone's decision to participate in this game demands an equal dose of viciousness in each individual player, and even in the emotionally charged observer. This scenario is not so different from kids' minds turning emotionally volatile from over-indulging in some profane and violent x-box game - the game is not real, but the reactions and subsequent motives manifest in very real ways, and it creates harmful seeds which will bear consequences when conditions become appropriate.

 

You, me, or anyone for that matter, we can always make the choice to find another vantage point, preferably one where no harbouring of harmful thoughts will cloud one's view. If we don't opt for a virtuous response to what passes through our minds, then we and these killers are basically like a pair of conjoined Punch & Judys.

 

If we cannot help but think harmful thoughts, sooner or later, these thoughts will manifest results - perhaps not directly affecting us, but be sure that every thought leaves imprints somewhere (the Buddhists call it the alaya, which is like a universal thought pool where every single thought, motive & intention is stored and where the prevailing energy from that pool then determines the general state of the world of humans).

[gendao]

Hmm, why does it seem like 12 people are far more significant than over 2.5 million in the Anglosphere?

It's not been confirmed where they come from, but from witness accounts they spoke perfect French, so if they were not born in France they spent a large proportion of their lives there. Many of these modern terrorists grow up the counties they attack, like the 77 London bombers and the killers of Lee Rigby. I don't think it is a case of misunderstanding some poor downtrodden people, many of these people are given lives of comparative luxury by the countries which they go on to attack.

But I understand the message, the gunmen are microcosms of god and part of us, so wanting them to suffer is not a healthy place for us to be in, I would rather have compassion for them then hate them. Yet when I see the video on YouTube how easily they executed the wounded police man on the street who was pleading for mercy without a moments hesitation then something primal arises in me and I can't deny that I would like them to suffer and die.

History and just basic life shows that everything changes and everything dies, including all cultures. How that change comes about determines to what degree there is great pain and suffering involved or whether it is a graceful death. Natural immigration is more on the graceful side of death, or more likely to result in something new being born, whereas forceful imposed immigration is more on the violent side and unlikely to result in anything except pain.

Natural immigration can even enhance cultures, where I live in the UK our culture has been enriched by immigration over the years, it actually can bring in a freshness and dynamism which keeps things from stagnating.

Hmm...cultural enhancement? Do you feel enriched now?

Edited January 8, 2015 by gendao

[Jetsun]

Hmm...cultural enhancement? Do you feel enriched now?

 

Yes

 

A few psychopaths don't represent every immigrant in every situation, there isn't even any evidence they were immigrants. You are trying to make bizarre confused points once again.