Can we not love our brother as ourselves?

[gatito]

[shunka]

re the article "These troubled men who project their self-hatred on others "
-------------------------------------------------
' He felt rejected by his family after his father took two more wives, marginalising his mother. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<

He drifted to Lebanon, started attending a mosque and listened to radical preachers.

"I had no one," he told my friend when she remonstrated with him. "They were my family." '

they are described as having an "immature and psychopathic personality"
-------------------------------------------------

fighting, weapons, and eventually killing seem to "define manhood" for these broken child-men .

They seem very similar if not identical to "disenfranchised, troubled youth" who join street gangs ( crips, bloods, 13 etc )
and remarkably similar to the descriptions I have read of Hitler and the Brown Shirts - ( somewhat chilling, nicht wahr?)

they cast about, angry and lonely, finally meet others like themselves, gather together, affirm and empower each other, and glorify their "broken-ness" .

In these specific cases, they are literally sought out, recruited, and further trained by militant radicals with specific agendas,
and are then used as disposable pawns in greater schemes. I am certain that such recruiting has been going on for decades in all countries by shadow agencies out to collect and use such cannon-fodder.

 

yhs

shunka

[dust]

I missed most of the conversation. I was going to jump in with a little post about how the Muslims I've met have mostly been quite lovely (which is true) and that Islam doesn't promote violence... but then I read chapter 9.

 

http://quran.com/9

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/Quran/9/index.htm

 

 

Muhsin Khan

Then when the Sacred Months (the Ist, 7th, 11th, and 12th months of the Islamic calendar) have passed, then kill the Mushrikun (see V.2:105) wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and prepare for them each and every ambush. But if they repent and perform As-Salat (Iqamat-as-Salat), and give Zakat, then leave their way free. Verily, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

 

Mushrikun: the disbelievers in the Oneness of Allah, idolaters, polytheists, pagans, etc

 

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/Quran/contra/free.html

 

 

 

I hadn't realised quite how much encouragement to violence (against non-Muslims) there is in the Qu'ran. Kinda scary to read, knowing that there are people out there taking it all quite seriously.

 

Of course, the same violent scary stuff is equally present in the Torah / Old Testament. The only real difference is that most people these days who aren't Muslim live in places where it's more acceptable to mock religion than follow it. Which is great, though we then tend to blindly follow something else instead. Everyone has their principles.

 

 

“Since opposed principles, or ideologies, are irreconcilable, wars fought over principle will be wars of mutual annihilation. But wars fought for simple greed will be far less destructive, because the aggressor will be careful not to destroy what he is fighting to capture. Reasonable - that is, human - men will always be capable of compromise, but men who have dehumanized themselves by becoming the blind worshipers of an idea or an ideal are fanatics whose devotion to abstractions makes them the enemies of life.”

Edited January 14, 2015 by dustybeijing

[C T]

Yes i believe such 'recruitments' have been going on for a long, long time, maybe longer than decades as suggested.

[shunka]

to dustybeijing -

 

I beleive the real difference is between how the "fundamentalist extremists" and "modern moderates" believe, respond and react. Here is a little ditty that has been going around the webs since it was popularized in the tv show "The West Wing" . It uses quotes from the Old testament to lampoon the thought process when one "interperates it literally".

 

-----------------------------------------------------

"I need some advice regarding some of the specific laws from the Old Testament and how to best follow them.

- When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev 1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

- I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

- Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

- I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself, or should I hire it out?

- eating shellfish is an Abomination (Lev 11:10), how should I deal with the transgressors at Red Lobster?

- Lev 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

- Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev 19:27. How should they die?

- I know from Lev 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

- My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? (Lev 24:10-16) Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)"

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

also - whilst it might be unwise ( and definitely unkind) to lampoon another person's "sacred cow" in the western world, the 1st World rule of law demands court action and appropriate consequences, as opposed to 3rd World summary "judge, jury , and execution" , especially of the non-participants.

 

Perhaps we could pursuade these ones to take up Amish "shunning" instead ?

 

yhs

shunka

Edited January 14, 2015 by shunka

[shunka]

BTW -

since I pushed "like" on the Asterix cartoon posted by gatito...

 

I need to go off and deal with the karmic burden incurred

and meditate on "why" I liked it and if that needs fixing......

 

yhs

shunka

[shunka]

Yes i believe such 'recruitments' have been going on for a long, long time, maybe longer than decades as suggested.

It has been written about at least as early as the mid-to-late 1800's and glorified as a way to be recruited into "The Great Game" . see Kipling's story "Kim" concerning a young orphan who is simultaneously pursuing a sacred path by way of an India Guru, and being trained and recuited into the British military spy business.

 

nothing new under the sun,

the wheel turns.

 

yhs

shunka

[gatito]

 

Ahmed Merabet, the police officer gunned down in the Charlie Hebdo attack, was killed in an act of barbarity by “false Muslims” his brother said in a moving tribute on Saturday, where he also appealed for unity and tolerance.

 

Speaking for a group of relatives gathered in Paris, Malek Merabet said the terrorists who ignored his brother’s plea for mercy as he lay wounded on the street may have shared his Algerian roots, but had nothing else in common.

 

“My brother was Muslim and he was killed by two terrorists, by two false Muslims,” he said. “Islam is a religion of peace and love. As far as my brother’s death is concerned it was a waste. He was very proud of the name Ahmed Merabet, proud to represent the police and of defending the values of the Republic – liberty, equality, fraternity.”

 

Malek reminded France that the country faced a battle against extremism, not against its Muslim citizens. “I address myself now to all the racists, Islamophobes and antisemites. One must not confuse extremists with Muslims. Mad people have neither colour or religion,” he said.

“I want to make another point: don’t tar everybody with the same brush, don’t burn mosques – or synagogues. You are attacking people. It won’t bring our dead back and it won’t appease the families.”

 

His brief speech was a moving tribute to the slain officer, loved as a son, brother, companion and uncle, but also a powerful call for harmony.

 

Full article here: -

 

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jan/10/charlie-hebdo-policeman-murder-ahmed-merabet

(www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jan/10/charlie-hebdo-policeman-murder-ahmed-merabet)

[Aetherous]

.

Edited January 15, 2015 by Aetherous

[3bob]

"that which is against the Tao will soon cease to be", and human beings can not take the Tao into their own hands which is a lot of what this string sounds like we would prefer to do. (in one way or another like with violence or in pity)

[Marblehead]

"that which is against the Tao will soon cease to be", and human beings can not take the Tao into their own hands which is a lot of what this string sounds like we would prefer to do. (in one way or another like with violence or in pity)

While this is true I feel we must speak to it. Being aware of what is going on around us is important.

[dust]

also - whilst it might be unwise ( and definitely unkind) to lampoon another person's "sacred cow" in the western world, the 1st World rule of law demands court action and appropriate consequences, as opposed to 3rd World summary "judge, jury , and execution" , especially of the non-participants.

 

Perhaps we could pursuade these ones to take up Amish "shunning" instead ?

 

yhs

shunka

 

Love the West Wing stuff. I've been meaning to watch it for years but keep getting sidetracked.

 

As far as the second bit... I'm not a fan of the terms "First World" and "Third World", especially in the context you just put them in. Talking strictly economically, it can be an easy way to identify the richest and poorest countries by putting them in the top or bottom third of economic power, but we shouldn't confuse this even a tiny bit with political or social situations. Yes, there is a great overlap a lot of the time, but there's also no true causal link.

 

Putting all "Third World" people under the sub-heading "Politically extreme and unstable, and culturally perverse" is a great error.

 

And assuming that all "First World" countries and their wonderful rule of law actually truly serves to respect universal human rights? Not convinced.

 

In my opinion, anyway...

[Owledge]

You don't understand the difference between having a freedom and being wise enough to know when to make use of it and when not.

If you feel compelled to prove you have that freedom by making unrestrained use of it whenever it pleases you, then you are in fact not free, but a slave to your mind.

You quote Ben Franklin, yet you might remember another idea(l) about being free to do what you want as long as it doesn't harm others.

And that is the difference between righteousness and compassion. Without the heart, the mind is a monster.

 

Tao Te Ching:

 

If you're not in touch with Tao,

at least you can still have integrity.

If you don't have integrity,

there's always kindness.

If you don't have kindness,

there's always justice.

If you don't have justice,

all you have left is righteousness.

 

 

Since justice is severely lacking in our world, naturally righteousness will pop up as the escapism of the meager.

Edited January 15, 2015 by Owledge

[Owledge]

I take it the OP is a plea for understanding for the men who murdered 12 human beings in France?

 

I have none. I would see them painfully killed and call it justice. The psychopath who kills the family next door because of some perceived slight is still guilty of multiple murder. To excuse them is to give a green light to any fanatic of any religion who feels they have they the right to kill others at will for any argument new or old. Historical rationalizing is easy, protecting the innocent not so much.

Common faulty line of thought fueled by incitement-propaganda. It is just to put the murderers on trial, but only with humility and regret (as a short-term mesaure to prevent too much upheaval), for there were unjust conditions that led to this incident.

[Owledge]

And I wish death upon those who killed those unarmed employees in Paris. And, a painful death. A very slow death.

 

One cannot reason with those types. It is either their way or no way. They have no right to negate the free speech of other when they themselves demand free speech for themselves.

They don't. They have much more basic problems to deal with.

 

Hey, can I wish a painful death upon all those who actively supported a government's illegal war, inflicting grand scale pain and suffering for the benefit of the rich elite? I mean, if we're talking about vengeance, this seems legit, no?

[Aetherous]

You don't understand the difference between having a freedom and being wise enough to know when to make use of it and when not.

If you feel compelled to prove you have that freedom by making unrestrained use of it whenever it pleases you, then you are in fact not free, but a slave to your mind.

You quote Ben Franklin, yet you might remember another idea(l) about being free to do what you want as long as it doesn't harm others.

And that is the difference between righteousness and compassion. Without the heart, the mind is a monster.

 

 

It's true...freedom has its natural limits. For instance, murdering 16 people doesn't allow you to roam the earth, free of any consequences. The law will come down on your head.

 

We must strive to not harm or interfere with others...that's our responsibility in a free world, otherwise, we take our own freedom away from each other. It can't be said that we are free, if we go do our workplace as cartoonists and get slaughtered out of the blue. Or go to our job as a policeman and be executed on the street.

 

Those are the real breaches of freedom.

 

However...speaking against the inherent flaws of Islam is not harming anyone (which is all I've done here). Are the feelings of Muslims hurt? I doubt it...and if so, that's not something that can be controlled when truth is being discussed (for instance, sharing history of Islamic murdering, or sharing direct quotes from the Qu'ran). This discussion I've taken in this thread is actually helping others see the real problem, if they dare to look, which is an ideology that commands its members to kill outsiders...and has a great track record of doing just that. By knowing the ones who strive to kill us, we won't be fooled when they talk of "peace and love", and thus we won't be as easy of targets. See...in this way, my actions prevent the harming of others, rather than cause it at all.

 

So how is it that you think I'm personally not wise enough to use my freedom, and that I'm accused of harming others with it?

 

Since justice is severely lacking in our world, naturally righteousness will pop up as the escapism of the meager.

 

I don't accept being called meager, an escapist, or a righteous person (when it's at the bottom of the rung of things to be in the Dao De Jing) by you.

[Owledge]

I am as well. I just view satire as being waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more kind than murder.

Then it is good that you are "only a student". Life might eventually give you a taste of things worse than death, and then you can appreciate the empathy gained.

[Aetherous]

Then it is good that you are "only a student". Life might eventually give you a taste of things worse than death, and then you can appreciate the empathy gained.

 

It already has, and I'm sure will do it some more, in much worse ways.

 

You're missing the point of that post completely, and are only attacking me personally...for what reason, I don't know, since you claim in your other thread to not believe either way about this issue, and to not be in the fight about it. Well, actions speak louder than words...

 

It's understandable to feel confused about what to think and do after an event like this. To not know what to do with your emotions. I would caution you not to take them out on me, personally...but if you want to, I can't stop you.

[dust]

This discussion I've taken in this thread is actually helping others see the real problem, if they dare to look, which is an ideology that commands its members to kill outsiders...and has a great track record of doing just that.

 

Let's not forget, though, that the very same is true of the other Abrahamic religions.

 

 

It's understandable to feel confused about what to think and do after an event like this.

 

The recent Paris attacks don't confuse or alarm me nearly as much as other recent events.

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/nigerias-forgotten-massacre-2000-slaughtered-by-boko-haram-but-the-west-is-failing-to-help-9970355.html

 

Now, I don't know if "the West" has any obligation to help, but we felt like we did in Iraq and Afghanistan, didn't we?

 

Or...wait...is there a political agenda behind all of this?

[Aetherous]

Let's not forget, though, that the very same is true of the other Abrahamic religions.

 

If you look back to the first video I posted in this thread, which discusses the history of Islamic terrorism, we can find evidence that it's never been the very same.

 

And if we consider who commits terrorist acts in the present day, we see that it's only Islamists, and not the other two religions.

[Aetherous]

The recent Paris attacks don't confuse or alarm me nearly as much as other recent events.

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/nigerias-forgotten-massacre-2000-slaughtered-by-boko-haram-but-the-west-is-failing-to-help-9970355.html

 

Now, I don't know if "the West" has any obligation to help, but we felt like we did in Iraq and Afghanistan, didn't we?

 

Sometimes people don't want to be helped. I personally think we should do something about this group, as well...but of course no matter what you choose to do, as good as it can be, there will always be critics. That doesn't stop us from doing what is right, though. And there will always be people who just will not fight for themselves (thinking of the Iraqis we trained). That makes our efforts appear to have been in vain.

[Jetsun]

Let's not forget, though, that the very same is true of the other Abrahamic religions.

 

Christianity has a violent bloody history, but Christianity in Europe went through a reformation which resulted in states with more liberty and a more progressive social and political structure as well as advances in many other areas. Islam is yet to go through such a reformation and it is debatable whether it is even possible for it to do so. People will march and stand up for the cartoonists even if what they are doing is idiotic because they don't want to go back to the dark ages.

[Owledge]

It already has, and I'm sure will do it some more, in much worse ways.

 

You're missing the point of that post completely, and are only attacking me personally...for what reason, I don't know, since you claim in your other thread to not believe either way about this issue, and to not be in the fight about it. Well, actions speak louder than words...

 

It's understandable to feel confused about what to think and do after an event like this. To not know what to do with your emotions. I would caution you not to take them out on me, personally...but if you want to, I can't stop you.

Distress is what I see you in. Calling my comment a personal attack reflects why you have the reactions to the events that you have. I don't need to figure out what to do with my emotions (while you certainly are channeling them here), since the events don't touch me emotionally, at least not by triggering fears.

 

I could point out that my other thread is exactly the kind of teaching that you could benefit from, but since you have already created a convenient opinion about it, that might not be of help.

 

If life has indeed confronted you with things worse than death, then maybe that is what you are still dealing with, but what is necessary to gain empathy (if you choose to venture there and feel strong enough to do so) is to acknowledge other people's similar experiences. When you look at how you considered my remark a "personal attack" and became defensive, you might just begin to understand how a muslim could react with violence when seeing their holy prophet dragged into the dirt. ... An overreaction? Yes. But it could happen to anyone.

[Aetherous]

how you considered my remark a "personal attack"

 

Well, it was.

 

and became defensive, you might just begin to understand how a muslim could react with violence when seeing their holy prophet dragged into the dirt. ... An overreaction? Yes. But it could happen to anyone.

 

So you call murdering 16 innocent people, being "defensive"...

 

Of course I understand their reasoning and their feelings...people get hurt and want to lash out...but I don't accept their decisions. Do you?

[dust]

Sometimes people don't want to be helped. I personally think we should do something about this group, as well...but of course no matter what you choose to do, as good as it can be, there will always be critics. That doesn't stop us from doing what is right, though. And there will always be people who just will not fight for themselves (thinking of the Iraqis we trained). That makes our efforts appear to have been in vain.

 

I think one area we (you and I) differ is in identification. I do not, though I live in the UK, identify myself in any way as part of this "we" or "us" that you speak of (which is, I assume, a collective composed roughly of USA & UK). I identify, perhaps, with like-minded people around the world who wish to see people stop creating and encouraging division and destroying our beautiful planet with their "forward thinking" or "backward thinking"... all these bizarre notions of principle and progress are absolute nonsense. I feel that the only way to "win" against extremism (Islamic or Western or other) is simply to ignore it and try to be a thoughtful, balanced person. Most people in Western society are not, in actuality, very thoughtful or balanced.

 

I didn't train any Iraqis. I didn't declare war on Iraq. I have no vested interest in any present war (other than as a human who hates seeing other humans suffer). I neither agree nor disagree with the wars "our" nations have declared, but I do believe that if a country uses a certain principle to justify an action, they should use that principle universally or have their action/principle exposed as invalid/inconsistent.

 

I'm pretty sure that Blair and Bush and Cameron and Obama are as guilty of crimes against humanity as any Islamic terrorist.

 

Hussein was a very bad man and Iraq was in a very bad state before the war. But the people of Iraq, as far as I remember, were not pleading for assistance... and "we" "helped" them anyway. The people of Nigeria are dying in the thousands, and they are pleading for assistance. And "we" are ignoring them, choosing instead to whine about free speech even as we prevent others around us from actually saying whatever the fuck they want.

 

There are entire villages being wiped out in Nigeria and Sudan and South Sudan and humans being murdered all the time in many other places around the world, and there is almost nothing ordinary citizens in those areas can do about it. I feel no personal obligation to go and fight for them, but anyone who sees the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan as a justified collective effort should feel an obligation to get their country going and do something. But instead they complain about free speech as if they're not free to talk shit all day long.

 

(This isn't a personal attack on you, A. It got away from me a bit towards the end there...just.. apparently needed to let some feelings out..)