Can we not love our brother as ourselves?

[Owledge]

Pope Francis' thoughtful speech was reported in today's newspaper here.

Seemed like sound and compassionate common sense.

"If Cardinal X here insults my mother then I will punch him..."

And he made to mock punch the cardinal who was standing next to him.

...

There's not much point in forgiving someone who simply takes advantage and carries on offending.

Saying to someone who has no intention of stopping stealing for example...

" Oh that's wrong all this stealing you are doing but I forgive you."

That gets no one anywhere at all.

There has to be some sanctions applied and limits defined.

Although one could expect such a stance from the pope. This could be seen as supporting the interest of the Church. Also it is unchristian to punch someone for words like that, so one could say he might be pandering to Islam, acting to be on the same level with them, when he's not. This calculated approach opens to all kinds of objections.

 

Regarding exploiting of people's forgiveness: As I pointed out, nothing goes anywhere without intention. Indeed 'blunt love' doesn't work in all cases (but love might lead to skillful action).

This understanding is what also makes me decide to stop conveying my insights to those who make it abundantly clear that they have no intention to learn. Marblehead just gave a very good (self-parodizing?) example for being stuck like that.

Or maybe he's dabbling in the idea of "Keep repeating a simple statement often enough and people will start believing it." Not sure who said that, LOL. But I know that also works on oneself.

Edited January 16, 2015 by Owledge

[GrandmasterP]

I don't think that just retaliation is un-Christian or un-anyother faith path either.

"Turn the other cheek" may be aspirational but, in the real world it is a recipe for sore cheeks and a license for bullies.

There are some bad folks out there.

For example....

If I put a sign at the end of the drive saying...

"We are on holiday, house is unlocked."

Maybe we'd need to be buying new furniture on our return from holiday.

So we don't put up such a sign, we have locks and a burglar alarm.

Are those security measures 'retaliation' or prevention?

If someone robbed us then I would hope they might be caught and punished in order perhaps to learn the error of their ways.

If someone broke in when I was here then I'd have no hesitation in tackling that person if I was able to do so.

Anything less and the wrongdoers have 'won'.

Edited January 16, 2015 by GrandmasterP

[Marblehead]

Well, you just put the finger on me, didn't you?

 

And BTW, just to further clarify:

 

One must also earn my hatred. I don't just go around hating anyone without a valid reason (my judgements, of course).

[doc benway]

 

There's not much point in forgiving someone who simply takes advantage and carries on offending.

Saying to someone who has no intention of stopping stealing for example...

" Oh that's wrong all this stealing you are doing but I forgive you."

That gets no one anywhere at all.

There has to be some sanctions applied and limits defined.

 

I disagree P.

Forgiveness is not about the other, it is about oneself.

Forgiveness is very liberating.

It allows us to look at that part of our self that feels hurt or wronged, and put it in its proper perspective.

Whatever part of us that feels offended is an illusion and is the source of our suffering.

As long as one holds a grudge, bears animosity, it is restricting, limiting, and toxic.

As Maya Angelou said, "Bitterness is like a cancer. It eats upon the host."

Forgiveness is a blessing to the one who forgives and does not, in any way, absolve the other of responsibility.

Just my way of looking at it..

[C T]

I disagree P.

Forgiveness is not about the other, it is about oneself.

Forgiveness is very liberating.

It allows us to look at that part of our self that feels hurt or wronged, and put it in its proper perspective.

Whatever part of us that feels offended is an illusion and is the source of our suffering.

As long as one holds a grudge, bears animosity, it is restricting, limiting, and toxic.

As Maya Angelou said, "Bitterness is like a cancer. It eats upon the host."

Forgiveness is a blessing to the one who forgives and does not, in any way, absolve the other of responsibility.

Just my way of looking at it..

 

Yes, i was also reflecting from that pov, Steve. Well said.

 

Its not about forgiving the other, its about cultivating a space of forgiveness in oneself which is key. To have that basis as a foundation, to put it another way. Bind this trait with a few other virtues and that opens the door to lessening reactive tendencies. Lessening reactive tendencies lead to being more in touch with what is real. Gradually it gets simpler to act upon and dissolve negative emotions as they arise, with the eventual aim of these losing their karmic propensities altogether. Freedom starts to be experienced from that point. It gets easier with practice, and learning how to observe patterns in oneself really helps.

 

just my 2 cts.

[GrandmasterP]

I can see where you are coming from guys and don't disagree with you 'aspirationally'.

Maybe I'm looking at this with material rather than a spiritual eyes.

I can see how being a forgiving person is far better than being someone eaten up with un forgiveness.

Maybe that old Jesuit adage...

" love the sinner, hate the sin."

I dunno.

Edited January 16, 2015 by GrandmasterP

[Marblehead]

Maybe that old Jesuit adage...

" love the sinner, hate the sin."

I dunno.

I'm pretty sure I would not be able to go that far.

[C T]

Sometimes it just takes a small shift in one's perspective to transform oneself and others, as illustrated by this super guy in the video.

 

[Marblehead]

Sometimes it just takes a small shift in one's perspective to transform oneself and others, as illustrated by this super guy in the video.

I doubt that anyone who knows me well can say that I am lacking in that personality trait.

[Owledge]

Sometimes it just takes a small shift in one's perspective to transform oneself and others, as illustrated by this super guy in the video.

 

I have mixed feelings about all those things, because all the insights conveyed by successful people are not necessarily what enabled them to attain it. They pick these things up along the way, and what sets that way in motion can be much more mysterious and out of their control.

[C T]

I have mixed feelings about all those things, because all the insights conveyed by successful people are not necessarily what enabled them to attain it. They pick these things up along the way, and what sets that way in motion can be much more mysterious and out of their control.

If you could be more specific, then maybe we can attempt to exchange some views, if you're interested. I like some of the points you have raised in this thread so far, but some of them (premises) seems so generalised -- the above remark illustrates that.

Edited January 16, 2015 by C T

[Owledge]

If you could be more specific, then maybe we can attempt to exchange some views, if you're interested. I like some of the points you have raised in this thread so far, but some of them (premises) seems so generalised -- the above remark illustrates that.

Well, it kinda is supposed to be somewhat general and not very specific. But I can try to zoom in a little, to rephrase:

When someone grows up under the right set of conditions, everything else falls into place easily. Even hardships basically become easy if sufficient motivation is there. Still hard and painful, but easy nevertheless. Some might then make the error of assuming that because they have been successful, the things they did along the path are a recipe for success.

The only recipe for success I could give is "Do your best", and it doesn't include any guarantee. And people are kinda doing that anyway, although hearing those words constitutes an external stimulus and thus could help people do better. Then the use is not in the message, but in the act of conveying it.

I'm playing with the idea/thesis that people can be afraid of embracing their creator power and thus refrain from consciously making a difference in other people's lives because it makes them anxious. When everything you have been given can only do so much, other people can make all the difference. In this, too, intention is everything. Who is willing to struggle with their fears in order to help someone they might not even know? Only those who have recognized it as good and thus have made it a driving purpose out of sincere conviction.

You can help humankind best if you don't make it personal.

Edited January 16, 2015 by Owledge

[rookie]

I realize this is very late in the thread, but upon reading the name of the post I remember one of the final teachings of Jesus as "love one another as I have loved you" which is much harder and more profound.

 

I can see in myself that I would fight and even go to war against this type of evil in the world. So I cannot resolve this in my life right now.

 

 

[Owledge]

I can see in myself that I would fight and even go to war against this type of evil in the world. So I cannot resolve this in my life right now.

Keep imagining yourself in other people's shoes, that will show you the way.

Remember that pair of movies Clint Eastwood directed? First from US perspective and then the second movie the same events, but from Japanese side? That kind of moviemaking is extremely valuable to society.

And then there is Counter-Strike, LOL.

[C T]

Well, it kinda is supposed to be somewhat general and not very specific. But I can try to zoom in a little, to rephrase:

When someone grows up under the right set of conditions, everything else falls into place easily. Even hardships basically become easy if sufficient motivation is there. Still hard and painful, but easy nevertheless. Some might then make the error of assuming that because they have been successful, the things they did along the path are a recipe for success.

The only recipe for success I could give is "Do your best", and it doesn't include any guarantee. And people are kinda doing that anyway, although hearing those words constitutes an external stimulus and thus could help people do better. Then the use is not in the message, but in the act of conveying it.

I'm playing with the idea/thesis that people can be afraid of embracing their creator power and thus refrain from consciously making a difference in other people's lives because it makes them anxious. When everything you have been given can only do so much, other people can make all the difference. In this, too, intention is everything. Who is willing to struggle with their fears in order to help someone they might not even know? Only those who have recognized it as good and thus have made it a driving purpose out of sincere conviction.

You can help humankind best if you don't make it personal.

Thats quite a sensible approach to life, and also, there are some validity to what you said about people's fears, especially that part about recognizing fears as something that can be transformed into a productive tool rather than something to be avoided.

 

 

edit.. typo

Edited January 16, 2015 by C T

[manitou]

I realize this is very late in the thread, but upon reading the name of the post I remember one of the final teachings of Jesus as "love one another as I have loved you" which is much harder and more profound.

 

I can see in myself that I would fight and even go to war against this type of evil in the world. So I cannot resolve this in my life right now.

 

 

 

 

Jesus also said 'Give to Caesar's what is Caesar's.' That would apply to the agreed punishment that society sets for misdeeds.

 

But as Steve said above, forgiveness is about one's self, not the other. To allow unforgiveness safe harbor in your soul is to have to settle for blockage when it comes to attainment that some of us here seek. It just depends on what you want.....self awareness, or the possibility of coming back in the next incarnation and getting the potential of learning the lesson all over again with similar circumstances. Personally, I'd rather get it out of the way in this lifetime.

 

But also, if you're familiar with Sun Tzu's Art of War, the perfect General, the one who will ultimately prevail, is the reluctant one. He does not kill with zeal, he is at one with the Tao and realizes the singularity of all life. He knows that to mow 3 people down is to cut off 3 of his own fingers. But he does what he has to do, what he has vowed to do. But he does it with a heavy heart, not a vengeful one. He doesn't shrink, he defends himself and his comrades - but his heart has not hardened because of it. To be proud of his killing accomplishment would not be in his character. To the opposite.

Edited January 16, 2015 by manitou

[Owledge]

 

Personally, I'd rather get it out of the way in this lifetime.

 

Don't forget to have fun on the path though.

 

 

But also, if you're familiar with Sun Tzu's Art of War, the perfect General, the one who will ultimately prevail, is the reluctant one. He does not kill with zeal, he is at one with the Tao and realizes the singularity of all life. He knows that to mow 3 people down is to cut off 3 of his own fingers. But he does what he has to do, what he has vowed to do. But he does it with a heavy heart, not a vengeful one. He doesn't shrink, he defends himself and his comrades - but his heart has not hardened because of it. To be proud of his killing accomplishment would not be in his character. To the opposite.

 

Tao Te Ching (Ron Hogan version):

 

The Master,

knowing all things came from Tao,

recognizes what he has in common

with his enemies

and always tries to avoid conflict.

 

But when there is no other choice,

he uses force reluctantly.

He does so with great restraint,

and never celebrates a victory;

to do so would be to rejoice in killing.

A person who would rejoice in killing // too many people, even on The Tao Bums

has completely lost touch with Tao.

 

When you win a war,

you preside over a funeral.

Pay your respects to the dead.

Edited January 16, 2015 by Owledge

[manitou]

Well, you just put the finger on me, didn't you?

Sometimes you just need a good fingering, LOL

[gendao]

Perhaps another Zionist false flag attack to counteract France's popular vote to recognize Palestine?

Just one month ago, France set off a stampede when its lower house voted to recognize Palestine. Now Palestine is in the International Criminal Court, poised to take down Israel for genocide.
Suddenly "Islamic terror strikes France." Is Paris being punished for its pro-Palestine vote?

France Arrests a Comedian For His Facebook Comments, Showing the Sham of the West’s “Free Speech” Celebration
Forty-eight hours after hosting a massive march under the banner of free expression, France opened a criminal investigation of a controversial French comedian for a Facebook post he wrote about the Charlie Hebdo attack, and then this morning, arrested him for that post on charges of “defending terrorism.” The comedian, Dieudonné (above), previously sought elective office in France on what he called an “anti-Zionist” platform, has had his show banned by numerous government officials in cities throughout France, and has been criminally prosecuted several times before for expressing ideas banned in that country.

Who Is Dieudonné? Controversial French Comic Arrested For Charlie Hebdo Facebook Post
French comedian Dieudonné M’bala M’bala was arrested Wednesday for being an “apologist for terrorism” after he published a post on Facebook that expressed sympathy with one of the Paris gunmen, reported the Guardian. French prosecutors had opened a case against the controversial comedian, known by his stage name Dieudonné, on Monday, after he wrote: “Tonight, as far as I’m concerned, I feel like Charlie Coulibaly,” mixing the “Je Suis Charlie” solidarity slogan with a reference to gunman Amédy Coulibaly, who killed four people at a kosher supermarket last week.

I mean, certainly "FREE SPEECH" is a joke in France, where it is legally kosher to obscenely ridicule everyone...except for Jews.

Maurice Sinet, known to the world as Siné, faced charges of “inciting racial hatred” for a column he wrote in July 2009. “L’affaire Sine,” followed the engagement of Jean Sarkozy to Jessica Sebaoun-Darty, the Jewish heiress of a major consumer electronics company, the Darty Group. Commenting on rumours that Jean intended to convert from Catholicism to Judaism (Jessica’s religion) for social success, Siné quipped, “He’ll go a long way in life, that little lad.”
It didn’t take long for Claude Askolovitch, a high-profile political journalist, to accuse Siné of anti-Semitism. Charlie Hebdo‘s editor, Philippe Val, who re-published Jyllands-Posten’s controversial cartoons of the prophet Mohammed in the name of ‘freedom of press’ in 2006, agreed that the piece was offensive and asked Siné to apologize. Siné refused, saying, “I’d rather cut my balls off.” He was fired and taken to court by the Ligue Internationale Contre le Racisme et l’Antisémitisme (LICRA), an organization which works to promote racial tolerance. In December 2010, Siné won a €40,000 court judgment against his former publisher for wrongful termination.
Charlie Hebdo publishes cartoons insulting Islam and Muslims as well as Jesus and Christianity, and tags them as “freedom of speech.” However, in the case of Siné, it failed to stand firm on its provocative “freedom of speech” stance.

Interesting how simply profane graphic art against some groups is fiercely defended as "free speech"...yet a much tamer casual remark against another is condemned as "hate speech" punishable by termination or imprisonment. Vive la France!!!

Edited January 17, 2015 by gendao

[ChiForce]

Let's get to the point without writing paragraphs.... I am speaking about the last week tragedy as someone who follows world events very diligently and occasionally receive precognitive dreams about them. Last week tragedy in France is more than just about free speech. It is more or less a pretext for the radical Islam to launch another terrorist act on France. Why? The attackers have ties and links to the Al Qaeda in Yemen. Two, the event is also anti Jew in nature since one of the partners held hostages inside a Kosher market and killed 4 Jews there. France has been experiencing a huge increase in anti Jew violence committed by radical Muslims for the past 2 years.

 

The event was anti France first. And anti Jew second. Anti free speech? That's actually far down the list. Islamic world has its own problem. Why their people would condone killing over some cartoons? Why their people are so easily offended? Right now, a lot of the Muslim nations are burning down French embassies. These Muslim govts may even cut ties to France over the cartoons.

 

These govts may allow these protests to continue but they have to aware that Muslim radicals can exploit this incidence to gain and to crave out more political power within their govt. They are turning their own Muslim citizens to become more radical. This isn't good for their govt itself.

Edited January 17, 2015 by ChiForce

[Marblehead]

The human animal is a strange animal indeed.

 

We can hate for the simplest of reasons.

 

I can understand the deer not liking the tiger and lion too much. But for one to hate another because of the religion they believe in? That's not logical or rational.

 

Of course, it goes much deeper than that. Everywhere on the planet it goes deeper than that. The extremists are taking advantage of the deep rooted hatred.

 

Actually, I see no good news on the horizon regarding this condition.

[manitou]

And hatred stems from fear.

[manitou]

Perhaps another Zionist false flag attack to counteract France's popular vote to recognize Palestine?

 

I honestly believe that's why Obama didn't participate or send anyone to participate. Because it reinforces Us vs. Them. He knows better. I see him as an enlightened one in a very unenlightened circumstance, working one day at a time for betterment. But my eyes could always be 'off'. It's just something I've seen since his first week in office. (I know I've predictably just set the stage for the next 23 posts)

[Marblehead]

And hatred stems from fear.

I will agree with that. Although hatred has roots in other sources as well.

[Marblehead]

(I know I've predictably just set the stage for the next 23 posts)

But I will let it ride untouched.