Can we not love our brother as ourselves?

[manitou]

If Obama is enlightened, then he's an enlightened person who personally fought for the unconstitutional aspects of the NDAA to be passed and continued to fight for it in legal battles (worth looking up if you don't know about that). He's an enlightened person under whose watch our debt has more than doubled (worse than Bush's record). He's an enlightened person who withdrew our troops from Iraq early, and indirectly caused "the Islamic State" to take over large portions of it, which wasn't a certainty at the time but was a significant likelihood...and it seems he only did it in order to appease the people who voted for him. Under whose watch racism has suddenly become an issue, with the country almost coming to the point of a race war, when previously it really wasn't an issue (as in the 90s for instance) and there definitely wasn't any hints of an actual race war. Who permitted the militarization of local police forces, and the expansion of the surveillance state. Remember how the big issue with Bush was the patriot act? Look at how things have gone since then...literally everyone is constantly watched, and no one seems to care.

 

I wouldn't mind him at all as a person or as a President, if he didn't do things like these. In suggesting that he's "enlightened"...well, there are various types of enlightenment. He's not a Buddha. He's a lawyer turned politician turned President. And perhaps enlightened people don't make the best decisions, or even have ulterior motives...if he is that at all.

 

Kind of makes you wonder what the TTC says about the best leaders, doesn't it?

[manitou]

They say that hindsight is always 20/20.

Not when you are asleep!

 

People who still worship Obama are vulnerable to abusive relationships.

LOL. Astounding.

[Aetherous]

Kind of makes you wonder what the TTC says about the best leaders, doesn't it?

 

That they aren't a spectacle, good things are accomplished in the country, and the people think it was because of their own workings? It would be great to have a leader like that.

Edited January 18, 2015 by Aetherous

[Seth Ananda]

I find the opening question so strange.

"Can we not love our brother as ourselves?"

My answer is no, depending on how we classify the definitions for the 'we'?

Obviously some people can, and others cant, because the world is always made up of people with many different perspectives, stages of awareness, sets of conditioning, wants, needs and personal or collective ideals.

Similar questions like "Why cant we all just get along?" make me want to answer "Because we can't god dammit it, and we never will!" The world is just not like that.

For every Idea there are opposing or contradictory Ideas, and people who are ready to fight to defend them.

 

I should add that I believe in violence as a means to solve certain problems. Freedoms have to be fought for at times, and oppressive regimes {someone elses or ours} also have to be fought at times.

 

Weirdly I have found more peace in accepting this view. I don't feel in conflict with the fact that there is conflict.

It doesn't mean I like it, [usually] but i no longer sit around wringing my fingers asking "Why, why??" about conflict.

 

Because there just is.

[Owledge]

Kind of makes you wonder what the TTC says about the best leaders, doesn't it?

Why that rhetorical question? Everybody who knows the TTC (and educates themselves properly about politics) knows how damn far someone like Obama is away from being a leader who follows the tao.

 

And don't confuse being limited by outside forces/interests with it being an excuse for doing what you do. When you become a leader of a nation and then even if you are surprised with learning that it's all ruled by business interests and in the stranglehold of banking, you should unveil that. If, though, you are afraid of your life, you still just try to keep things on a low flame. What you definitely don't do as a decent person in such a situation is fully give in to it and become an expert manipulator.

Edited January 18, 2015 by Owledge

[dust]

He's an enlightened person under whose watch our debt has more than doubled (worse than Bush's record).

 

Has he been spending all this money himself?

 

 

...and it seems he only did it in order to appease the people who voted for him.

 

You mean... like in a democracy?

 

 

Under whose watch racism has suddenly become an issue, with the country almost coming to the point of a race war, when previously it really wasn't an issue (as in the 90s for instance)

 

... really.. no race issues in the '90s? Do we want to rethink that?

 

https://sites.google.com/a/micds.org/townsley-race-and-racism/home/1990s

 

 

and there definitely wasn't any hints of an actual race war.

 

But there are now?

[dust]

I no longer know what to think about Obama, but... Will Smith likes him.

 

 

That they aren't a spectacle, good things are accomplished in the country, and the people think it was because of their own workings? It would be great to have a leader like that.

 

If the point is that you have no idea that they're even your leader, how do you know you don't have a leader like that?

Edited January 18, 2015 by dustybeijing

[soaring crane]

 

That they aren't a spectacle, good things are accomplished in the country, and the people think it was because of their own workings? It would be great to have a leader like that.

Maybe you do. How would you know?

[Aetherous]

Maybe you do. How would you know?

 

Well, in the case of our country, since every President is well known no matter what, I think the President wouldn't be so discussed if he were an ideal leader. He would fade into the background and not be causing problems. Or otherwise be a spectacle, which Obama has been.

 

Good things would be accomplished. Obama has done some good things, definitely...but overwhelming, the country is not doing well. And he has done some horrible things for our country personally, which has a foundation of the Constitution and Declaration of Independence. According to the definition, he is a tyrant in America...but who cares enough about our principles to admit that? Too many don't care about their own American rights.

 

People are aware of the government encroaching and overstepping its bounds, and no one thinks they personally are making the country better. Normal people feel powerless...and many have trouble even finding decent work to support themselves. Consider all of the college students who get out and end up living with their parents...is it the generation of entitlement, or are there really just not enough decent jobs? The ones who are in a position to change the country for the better, such as Congressmen, seem to just be trying to keep it afloat or else fighting the other side. Or otherwise being corrupt.

 

I guess people can disagree and say that Obama is the ideal leader in the Dao De Jing...everyone can have their own opinion.

[Aetherous]

Has he been spending all this money himself?

 

He's been spending way too much himself, taking numerous vacations each year. But of course it's not entirely his fault. It happened on his watch though, and we're talking about an ideal leader of a country...the country is not doing well!

 

You mean... like in a democracy?

 

Keeping one's promises is laudable, as is serving the people's interests...but doing it when knowing that the country will soon be overrun by a terrorist organization who will become stronger and spread worldwide as a result? Plain old stupid. Even many (not all) Democrats who wanted nothing to do with the Iraq war think that ISIS is horrible.

 

... really.. no race issues in the '90s? Do we want to rethink that?

 

Compared to now? Racism in America has absolutely become worse.

 

My opinion might differ from others, because I'm aware that reverse racism is still racism. Some others confuse blacks hating on whites as being part of their civil rights movement, and so don't consider it to be racism at all.

 

But there are now?

 

Oh yes. You live outside of America, right? Each time a black kid is killed (no matter the circumstances, such as grabbing a cop's weapon) the African American community gets more heated. This most recent time, the Ferguson incident, many blacks literally wanted a race war.

 

Thankfully, there are others who have some common sense, and are ashamed of the others.

Edited January 18, 2015 by Aetherous

[dust]

He's been spending way too much himself, taking numerous vacations each year. But of course it's not entirely his fault. It happened on his watch though, and we're talking about an ideal leader of a country...the country is not doing well!

 

I know not enough to discuss thoughtfully. Personally, though, I don't believe -- at all -- that national issues are fixed in a few years (especially when the opposition needs the President to be seen to be ineffective).

 

People expect instant change, and it doesn't happen in modern "democracy". I say this not in defense of Obama, but in defense of any world leader who is genuinely trying to affect change and finds him or herself unable (whoever they might be..it's hard to tell)

 

 

Keeping one's promises is laudable, as is serving the people's interests...but doing it when knowing that the country will soon be overrun by a terrorist organization who will become stronger and spread worldwide as a result? Plain old stupid. Even many (not all) Democrats who wanted nothing to do with the Iraq war think that ISIS is horrible.

 

"soon be overrun by a terrorist organization" ?

 

You watch a lot of Fox / CNN news?

 

 

Compared to now? Racism in America has absolutely become worse.

 

My opinion might differ from others, because I'm aware that reverse racism is still racism. Some others confuse blacks hating on whites as being part of their civil rights movement, and so don't consider it to be racism at all.

 

Right. Well, I firstly disagree that "reverse racism" has increased -- perhaps an acceptance of black people being outspoken about things in the media has increased, but there's no extra belief that "whitey" is the devil -- black people have been thinking that for a long long time. And much of that time, for good reason.

 

Obviously this "reverse racism" as you call it is indeed racism, I agree. Any form of discrimination based on skin colour is absolutely ridiculous.

 

But just because people with black skin are more vocal about racial things and people with white skin are less vocal about them (I assume because of a culture of shame and guilt surrounding slavery -- which is quite silly, as no people alive today had anything to do with slavery) doesn't mean that white people are any less racist now than they were 20 years ago or that black people are any more racist now than they were 20 years ago.

 

I assume you have white skin. If that's the case, I think your problem is with not being allowed, as a white person, to talk about race with the same openness that "people of colour" seem to have these days. I agree that this is discriminatory... however:

 

 

Oh yes. You live outside of America, right? Each time a black kid is killed (no matter the circumstances, such as grabbing a cop's weapon) the African American community gets more heated. This most recent time, the Ferguson incident, many blacks literally wanted a race war.

 

What I see is a majority-white country where "people of colour" are still getting killed quite frequently when they've done very little wrong. Cases where, if the victim was white, the situation would have played out quite differently.

 

Seems to me that you perceive differently-coloured people as a threat, talking of impending race wars and terrorist organizations looming on your doorstep. This kind of paranoia is not helpful, in my opinion.

[manitou]

I think this will be my last post on this particular thread, because it's evolved so strangely and I'm tired of it. I probably shouldn't have started it to begin with, it's gotten awfully mean spirited.

 

But I do want to end with a paragraph from the Avatamsaka Sutra (Cleary), which is the very best that any of us could do, assuming any of us have the will for enlightenment. Perhaps this can show us how very far we have to go, as opposed to the attitudes we've expressed on this thread. And the cartoons we've shown to demonstrate our points:

 

 

(Page 1082, Detachment from the World):

 

"Great enlightening beings have ten kinds of head: the head of nirvana, as no one can see the top; the head of honor, respected by all humans and celestials; the head of universal higher understanding, being supreme in the universe; the head of foremost roots of goodness, honored by the sentient beings of the three worlds; the head bearing sentient beings, developing an indestructible crown; the head of not despising others, in all places always respectful; the head of transcendent wisdom, nurturing all virtuous qualities; the head of union of knowledge and skill in means, everywhere appearing in compatible forms; the head of teaching all sentient beings, taking all sentient beings as disciples; the head of preservation of the eye of reality of buddhas, able to perpetuate the seeds of the three treasures. Based on these ten, enlightening beings can attain the supreme head of knowledge and wisdom of buddhas."

 

 

We have a ways to go.

[Owledge]

Ascent is not the end of all wisdom if there are mundane problems to be resolved. It can become an escapism.

One step at a time is much more effective.

And the path is the goal anyway.

Try to skip a course if you want. I'll order what's on the menu.

[Marblehead]

I think this will be my last post on this particular thread, because it's evolved so strangely and I'm tired of it. I probably shouldn't have started it to begin with, it's gotten awfully mean spirited.

 

 

We have a ways to go.

Now, if that isn't the truth there is no truth whatever.

 

And any two opposing views held very strongly will gravitate downward toward mean-spiritedness.

 

This is what our "beliefs" do for us.

 

Can we not love our brother? Apparently not. At least in the most part. Now, if my brother does everything I want him to do then we might be able to get along. Me master, you slave.

[dust]

I doubt you were honestly expecting everyone to answer "yes" to the original question...?

[Owledge]

I doubt you were honestly expecting everyone to answer "yes" to the original question...?

I do believe she was expecting "Yes we can".

[dust]

Can you imagine a world where everyone is nice to each other?

 

I can't.

 

I mean, I can picture a fantasy world where that happens, and it's great, but I cannot imagine it ever actually happening here... without the aid of major genetic modification.. or robot masters.

 

 

(robot masters..a contradiction in terms eh..)

[Marblehead]

Can you imagine a world where everyone is nice to each other?

 

I can't.

I can. Many places where I served in the Army, when I went out amongst the natives, I can honestly say that almost always I was treated very kindly. I therefore state that it is possible. But then, I must add: but very unlikely

 

(robot masters..a contradiction in terms eh..)

It won't be too many years from now when that will no longer be a contradiction in terms.

[Owledge]

Can you imagine a world where everyone is nice to each other?

 

I can't.

 

I mean, I can picture a fantasy world where that happens, and it's great, but I cannot imagine it ever actually happening here... without the aid of major genetic modification.. or robot masters.

 

 

(robot masters..a contradiction in terms eh..)

I can imagine it.

And there will still be differences, because perception adjusts to the range from one extreme to the other. There will still be problems to solve. But on average humankind can be much nicer.

The lack of imagination/belief is exactly what prevents the process from starting. Without believing that the future can look better, you become an agent of the status quo. You have been overpowered by the cynical beliefs of others.

Not me. ... And that's part of why my life is so difficult. A vision for a better future is an inconvenience. And people are too much trapped (by themselves, too) in mundane inconveniences to improve the situation.

The common rabble thinks with their wallet. Even police in Germany manages to refuse to do work and only do the bare necessities ... not because it's the right thing to do, not out of civil courage ... but because their wages are being cut. They think of themselves as working together - solidarity - but in reality it's a bunch of egoists with a common goal.

People who call you a conspiracy nut when you talk about Iran Contra can suddenly vigorously explain they've always known the moon landings were faked if it positively affects their income. Suddenly people 'wisen up'.I call it mercenary mentality. Dirty politicians, all of them.

Edited January 19, 2015 by Owledge

[dust]

I can imagine it.

And there will still be differences, because perception adjusts to the range from one extreme to the other. There will still be problems to solve. But on average humankind can be much nicer.

 

Oh..we can be nicer. And I won't say that it's impossible that we could all be nice to each other at some point (genetics/robots/a distantly evolved descendant). But at this point, I cannot believe it is possible.

 

 

The lack of imagination/belief is exactly what prevents the process from starting. Without believing that the future can look better, you become an agent of the status quo. You have been overpowered by the cynical beliefs of others.

 

No. I am realistic, not cynical. I didn't say that it couldn't be better.

 

It's not cynical to not believe that the world is going to morph into a fluffy paradise within the next few decades/centuries.

 

But I am also constantly "improving" myself (I believe). Being as honest, courageous, and flexible as possible (which isn't always a lot..but better than I used to be).

 

The only way we could ever get to a better point is if everyone adhered to a simple path of self-reflection. Recognizing the oneness. True honesty, courage, and flexibility... which a large majority of people don't have the capacity for, in my opinion.

[Owledge]

Oh..we can be nicer. And I won't say that it's impossible that we could all be nice to each other at some point (genetics/robots/a distantly evolved descendant). But at this point, I cannot believe it is possible.

Genetics won't create a nicer future. It's just a tool, and its mind-altering capabilities are dubious at best and very likely just as unwise as your robots idea.

 

No. I am realistic, not cynical. I didn't say that it couldn't be better.

 

It's not cynical to not believe that the world is going to morph into a fluffy paradise within the next few decades/centuries.

You said "but I cannot imagine it ever actually happening here... without the aid of major genetic modification.. or robot masters."

 

But I am also constantly "improving" myself (I believe). Being as honest, courageous, and flexible as possible (which isn't always a lot..but better than I used to be).

 

The only way we could ever get to a better point is if everyone adhered to a simple path of self-reflection. Recognizing the oneness. True honesty, courage, and flexibility... which a large majority of people don't have the capacity for, in my opinion.

Stop caring about "everyone" in this regards. Improve yourself out of conviction, regardless of what others do. It's difficult, but the only way to make a better future, because the only thing that prevents it are adherents of an adverse belief system and those who become convinced by it.

 

I myself can be so realistic that it sounds very cynical, but that doesn't mean I have any sympathy for that awareness of things. The more people accept what actually is, the more it gives them potential empowerment to improve things. But acceptance shouldn't lead to favor.

[dust]

I said I can't imagine a world where everyone is nice to each other... and I can't.

That doesn't mean it can't be better than it is now! I can imagine a slightly "better" world.

 

Genetics/robotics etc are not "my ideas".. I find these ideas repulsive, in fact. Just using them to illustrate a point!

In a genetically modified future, we could very easily alter ourselves to just be "nice" and docile. Not my idea of life. But it's going to happen in some way or other, isn't it? There are people who want it to.

[Owledge]

 

In a genetically modified future, we could very easily alter ourselves to just be "nice" and docile. Not my idea of life. But it's going to happen in some way or other, isn't it? There are people who want it to.

Just like slave labor is cheaper than automation, for making people docile and complacent the media is cheaper than genetic engineering.

... Hopefully.

[dust]

Yeah... for now...

[gendao]

I do believe she was expecting "Yes we can".

Or does she perhaps have a long-lost or estranged brother whom she does not love as herself?

 

Whom she now Freudian-projects onto "brothers" and other rebellious non-White "minorities?"