Why chest pleasure/pain during meditation?

[dc9]

I have been really pushing myself in meditation to sit for as long as I can stand, observing my restlessness and agitation. The longest I have sat since then is 45min. At times I would experience a great sense of peace. Physically, sometimes I experience great pleasure at my chest area, resembling the same sensations as in an orgasm. One time it became very intense. After that one time, however, the pleasure never became that intense again. What's more worrying is that sometimes that same sensation becomes a kind of unpleasant, aching, sore, almost itchy feeling. Sometimes it alternates between pleasant and unpleasant.

 

What's stranger is that if I maintain awareness and mindfulness throughout my day, that same pleasure/pain feeling will show up in the same area of my body even though I'm not even focusing my awareness on my chest. See, I used to daydream a lot, and recently I've decided to simply remain aware of the present. If I maintain that awareness for a while when I'm going through my daily mundane life, I feel much more at peace... but that sensation that used to only happen during meditation is also showing itself.

 

I don't believe in chakras. Or blockages. Or emotional baggage surfacing itself as a physical sensation. And I am still very skeptical, despite this strange phenomenon that is happening to me. I'm quite certain I don't have any heart or heartburn issues.

 

Please, as pragmatic and scientific as possible, does anyone know what is happening to me or can share similar experiences?

[liminal_luke]

I don't believe in chakras. Or blockages. Or emotional baggage surfacing itself as a physical sensation. And I am still very skeptical, despite this strange phenomenon that is happening to me. I'm quite certain I don't have any heart or heartburn issues.

 

I believe the sensations we experience in our bodies reflect what´s going on in our lives. We can choose to look at the meaning of these sensations through many different lenses: the lens of modern physical medicine, as emotions manifesting physically, as energy.

 

You´re clearly experiencing something and yet "skeptical" of any of these possibilities. You´re "quite certain" it´s not an obvious physical problem, and don´t "believe" in any of the likely alternative explanations either. And yet you´re here, on Taobums, a spiritual forum where you´re likely to hear spiritual answers. So I can only guess that a part of you wants to hear an explanation that another part of you (the rational inner scientist perhaps) will likely reject as too woo-woo.

 

Can you sense these two parts of your personality...the part that senses something emotionally/spiritually interesting and meaningful is happening to you and the part that wants to reject all such talk as hogwash? My hunch is that an inner dialogue between these two opposing aspect of yourself will yield at least part of the answer you seek.

 

Liminal

[ChiDragon]

I have been really pushing myself in meditation to sit for as long as I can stand, observing my restlessness and agitation. The longest I have sat since then is 45min. At times I would experience a great sense of peace. Physically, sometimes I experience great pleasure at my chest area, resembling the same sensations as in an orgasm. One time it became very intense. After that one time, however, the pleasure never became that intense again. What's more worrying is that sometimes that same sensation becomes a kind of unpleasant, aching, sore, almost itchy feeling. Sometimes it alternates between pleasant and unpleasant.

 

 

May I ask how deep can you breathe.....???

Does your breath go deep down to the lower dan tian pleasantly or it only stops at the chest area....??? Thanks!

Edited January 9, 2015 by ChiDragon

[Silent Answers]

I just wanted to add... This has happened to me a few times in the past. Most days my breathing is fine during meditation, but on rare occasions I won't be able to breath deeply, and get a stabbing feeling in my solar plexus. When this happens, I usually just stop and try again the next day. It's never lasted past one session.

 

If no other more helpful answers explain it in a way that you can accept, just let it be a sign for you to take a rest and not force it.

[dc9]

The feeling only started after my meditation session, and only seems to get stronger when I am practicing concentration and awareness either in my daily life or in meditation. The only possible physical explanation is perhaps I am tensing my muscles, but then why would the sensations also involve pleasure if that's the case?

 

I certainly can't go to a doctor. He won't find anything and will finally just tell me to stop meditating or take it easy. So rationally, I don't have anywhere else to turn..

 

My current belief is that this is some kind of weird psychosomatic thing. But I try to keep my mind open. It's just that there's so much bullshit out there.... try googling "chest pain meditation". So many new age woo-woo sites about opening your heart chakra or angels or whatever.

 

I am looking for a rational, pragmatic explanation.. if there is one beyond "this is a phantom sensation, ignore it".

 

ChiDragon: My breathing is usually shallow I think, because I do buddhist anapana meditation which is to simply watch the breathe without controlling it, and my breathing is naturally fairly shallow. As my meditation went deeper I might have breathed deeper too, but it couldn't have been too much deeper.

 

 

-----

 

And just to clarify, this sensation is in no way deliberating. The first time the pleasure was very intense and distracting and felt like an orgasm, but after that, either the pleasure or the pain is entirely bearable and does not affect my focus on my breath too much.

 

I would just like to see if maybe there's a rational pragmatic explanation for my experience. If someone can make a strong case for chakra or chi, I am even open to that..

Edited January 9, 2015 by dc9

[ChiDragon]

ChiDragon: My breathing is usually shallow I think, because I do buddhist anapana meditation which is to simply watch the breathe without controlling it, and my breathing is naturally fairly shallow. As my meditation went deeper I might have breathed deeper too, but it couldn't have been too much deeper.

 

Thank you. Your shallow breathing is your problem. That is the kind of answer I was expecting from you; and that was why I ask the question first before given you any advice.

 

The things that you had mentioned in the OP:

1. What's more worrying is that sometimes that same sensation becomes a kind of unpleasant, aching, sore, almost itchy feeling. Sometimes it alternates between pleasant and unpleasant.

 

You have breathing problems which will cause your body to be lack of oxygen or hypoxia. It will give you these kinds of symptoms.

 

2. What's stranger is that if I maintain awareness and mindfulness throughout my day, that same pleasure/pain feeling will show up in the same area of my body even though I'm not even focusing my awareness on my chest

 

Focusing on the chest, without breathing properly, is only a mental thing. You need to do the physical such as deep breathing down to your dan tian or abdomen to have any changing effect on you.

 

3. I don't believe in chakras. Or blockages. Or emotional baggage surfacing itself as a physical sensation. And I am still very skeptical, despite this strange phenomenon that is happening to me. I'm quite certain I don't have any heart or heartburn issues.

 

Yes, you are right about that. Your problems are not in these areas. You need to practice some Chi Kung breathing exercise, in your meditation, like breathe slowly, long and deeply down to your dan tain. It was known as abdominal breathing or dan tian breathing.

 

4. If someone can make a strong case for chakra or chi, I am even open to that.

Your goal in breathing it to "sink chi to the dan tian". Chi means your breath or air in this case.

 

This is my rational pragmatic explanation for your experience. It was, also, my rational pragmatic explanation for my past experience.

 

 

Edited January 9, 2015 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

I just wanted to add... This has happened to me a few times in the past. Most days my breathing is fine during meditation, but on rare occasions I won't be able to breath deeply, and get a stabbing feeling in my solar plexus. When this happens, I usually just stop and try again the next day. It's never lasted past one session.

 

If no other more helpful answers explain it in a way that you can accept, just let it be a sign for you to take a rest and not force it.

 

Again, this is a good example of not able to "sink chi to the dan tian" which one will get a stabbing feeling in the solar plexus

[Infinity]

Hmmm? Got it!

 

Pleasure><pain

Chest><back

Love><hate

 

I am getting very very good at this!!!!!

 

Edited January 9, 2015 by Infinity

[松永道]

If someone can make a strong case for chakra or chi, I am even open to that..

Chidragon's diagnosis is probably the right direction. Often the "qi" doesn't sink into the lower abdomen because the diaphragm is tight.

 

As for a scientific case for chakras and qi, they aren't real. Not in a discrete material sense anyways. Nevertheless, they're useful concepts.

 

The best metaphor I've come up with is that Qi is a constellation. Constellations aren't real. But without them our ancestors would have never been able to make sense of the night sky. There are simply too many stars. With constellations, ancient people mapped the night sky, discovered how it moved, and how it was arranged. They then used that information to track time and navigate.

 

Qi is a sensory constellation. It can't be measured with modern technology because it isn't a thing. It's a collection of things. One group of things that arise together is called hot Qi. Another group of things that collect together is called static Qi. Qi is just qualitative name for a perceivable phenomenon.

 

As your awareness improves through a practice like meditation you will become aware of more bodily sensations. At first gross, then increasingly subtle. This is how ancient people mapped the 'subtle' or 'energetic' body and how they came up with chakras, channels, etc.

 

Are they special energies? No. Not if you think energy is a separate, magical reality. But is it possible that a person can feel endocrine gland function, metabolic activities and other bodily processes? I believe so. And could these processes sometimes feel different than how they are described as discrete tissues, molecules, etc in our current biomedical paradigm? Absolutely. Then should our sense reality included in scientific investigation? Why the hell not!

 

The human body-mind in an unparalleled scientific tool. According to their own accounts, some of our ancestors developed this tool to a degree that few people, if any, can rival today. Our species, in its present form, has been on earth for at least 1.9 million years and every generation had its own Einsteins. It's the height of hubris to discount their discoveries. Therefore, we need to understand their language and research. And that starts with demystifying concepts like chakras and Qi. People who earned the title Sage weren't soft minded hippies. They were practical investigators of nature, life, and reality.

 

Our ancestors also understood that the human tool, like every other tool, needs to be calibrated to produce accurate measurements. A broken tool doesn't measure reality - it only measures it's own brokenness. And it doesn't even do that accurately. Broken tools need to be repaired and honed. Incidentally, that's a direct translation of the Chinese word for self-cultivation, xiulian 修炼 - repair and hone. And that's what practices like qigong, yoga and meditation are for - repairing and honing the human tool.

 

Your problem isn't new. It's been mapped long ago. Herbs can treat it. Acupuncture can treat it. And practice can treat it. It's simple a matter of sinking the Qi. But what that means in biomedical terms is exceedingly complex indeed.

 

Everything you don't believe in - chakras, blockages, emotional baggage - is real. But also not real. You just need to learn what they actually are. Skepticism plus exposure is the best way to learn. Lucky for you, you've got skepticism and are already working on exposure. I personally don't believe in anything that I haven't experienced. But I also don't disbelieve. I think a good cultivator and real scientist must be agnostic in his or her quest for gnosis. We must be open minded skeptics. It makes cultivation a slow road. But at least it's on the road. Blindly believing this stuff is a dead end.

 

Now then, all that said, an in person diagnosis beats the Internet any day. A Chinese medicine doctor who cultivates should be able to give you a proper diagnosis and help you with your problem. If my impression of you is right it should be petty easy to treat.

 

Edit: wow, that ended up long winded.

Edited January 10, 2015 by 松永道

[Silent Answers]

But well worth reading.

[ChiDragon]

松永道.....
I like your post is not because of your agreement with me. Rather it is my agreement with many of your thoughts which gives me an opportunity to extent our discussion further into a broader view.

Chidragon's diagnosis is probably the right direction. Often the "qi" doesn't sink into the lower abdomen because the diaphragm is tight.

The reason that the diaphragm was tight is because the abdomen was not fully expanded during inhalation.

As for a scientific case for chakras and qi, they aren't real. Not in a discrete material sense anyways. Nevertheless, they're useful concepts.

As far as the definition of Chi goes, it is 見仁見智, people will define it as how they see it fits.

As your awareness improves through a practice like meditation you will become aware of more bodily sensations. At first gross, then increasingly subtle. This is how ancient people mapped the 'subtle' or 'energetic' body and how they came up with chakras, channels, etc.

Mapped is the keyword, here. If one follows those so called chakras, channels or meridians and compared with a anatomic diagram, then, one will see those meridians are aligned with our nerves in the CNS.

Are they special energies? No. Not if you think energy is a separate, magical reality. But is it possible that a person can feel endocrine gland function, metabolic activities and other bodily processes? I believe so. And could these processes sometimes feel different than how they are described as discrete tissues, molecules, etc in our current biomedical paradigm? Absolutely. Then should our sense reality included in scientific investigation? Why the hell not!

Yes, why the hell not....??? I had sensed reality included in scientific investigation. It was amazed how the traditional concepts correspond to modern scientific knowledge.

The human body-mind in an unparalleled scientific tool. According to their own accounts, some of our ancestors developed this tool to a degree that few people, if any, can rival today. Our species, in its present form, has been on earth for at least 1.9 million years and every generation had its own Einsteins. It's the height of hubris to discount their discoveries. Therefore, we need to understand their language and research. And that starts with demystifying concepts like chakras and Qi. People who earned the title Sage weren't soft minded hippies. They were practical investigators of nature, life, and reality.

You are absolutely right about that.

Our ancestors also understood that the human tool, like every other tool, needs to be calibrated to produce accurate measurements. A broken tool doesn't measure reality - it only measures it's own brokenness. And it doesn't even do that accurately. Broken tools need to be repaired and honed. Incidentally, that's a direct translation of the Chinese word for self-cultivation, xiulian 修炼 - repair and hone. And that's what practices like qigong, yoga and meditation are for - repairing and honing the human tool.

Yes, I can't agree more...
修炼(xiulian) - cultivate with QiGong is a way to fine tune and calibrate the body to perform its function ultimately.

Your problem isn't new. It's been mapped long ago. Herbs can treat it. Acupuncture can treat it. And practice can treat it. It's simple a matter of sinking the Qi. But what that means in biomedical terms is exceedingly complex indeed.

Sorry, we have a little disagreement here. Most herbs and acupuncture are used for preventive measures. His problem, here, is breathing. Like you said, this is something has to be 修炼(xiulian), cultivated to get the final result.

Everything you don't believe in - chakras, blockages, emotional baggage - is real. But also not real. You just need to learn what they actually are. Skepticism plus exposure is the best way to learn. Lucky for you, you've got skepticism and are already working on exposure. I personally don't believe in anything that I haven't experienced. But I also don't disbelieve. I think a good cultivator and real scientist must be agnostic in his or her quest for gnosis. We must be open minded skeptics. It makes cultivation a slow road. But at least it's on the road. Blindly believing this stuff is a dead end.

Again, this is something to be 見仁見智, people will define it as how they see it fits. I do strongly believe what was said in blue.

Now then, all that said, an in person diagnosis beats the Internet any day. A Chinese medicine doctor who cultivates should be able to give you a proper diagnosis and help you with your problem. If my impression of you is right it should be petty easy to treat.

IMHO, most likely, a TCM doctor is probably going to prescribe some herbs which is irrelevant to his breathing problem. I have seen this in an herbal shop before when I took my wife to see the TCM doctor. A lady with a pile face was sitting next to me waiting to see the doctor. She has been visiting there for many times for the same symptom. I looked her complexion on her face and asked her does she have a breathing problem; and her answer was yes and how did you know. Immediately, I saw the face of the lady owner of the shop has changed with a guilty look as her shop was cheating on the patient by not sensing the actual cause to her problem.

 

[松永道]

Chinese medicine can treat the branch or the root. A good doctor treats the root. A doctor without enough skill or without integrity treats the branches. In my research and medical experience I've found that abdominal breathing is the baseline state. Children and uncomplicated people do it naturally.

 

There are a number of disfunctional patterns that result in shallow breathing: chronic posture problems, food accumulation in the intestines, liver disfunction, kidney disfunction, lung disfunction and spleen/pancrease disfunction are the most common. I apologize for not describing them all now, I already spent a bit too much precious time on the above post. All I will say is from what I've seen and experienced, herbs and acupuncture can strongly restore depth to the breath. If the doctor is good, acute cases should be noticeably improved within 2 hours. Chronic cases should see effect within 5-15 days. Not necessarily cure but noticeable results. If there are no results within this time either the doctor needs to use a different treatment strategy or the patient needs to find another doctor.

 

As a Chinese medicine practicioner and cultivator, I tell my patients that self cultivation is the best medicine. However, in my experience, it's also the slowest and most challenging. Acupuncture and herbs both push in the right direction but to continue in the right direction everyone needs to walk on their own two feet. That said, acupuncture and herbs often mend disfunction well enough to return a patient to a comfortable life and that's all most people want. Someone who wants to repair and hone the human tool should know that the field of medicine is focused on repair. Acupuncture can only repair. Herbs can facilitate both, there are a lot of herbs out there, but using them in the honing process is a shamanic endeavor that requires due consideration. All herbs have side effects, however obvious or subtle.

Edited January 10, 2015 by 松永道

[dc9]

I like the analogy of comparing qi/chakra to constellations. It makes a lot of sense to me.

 

I am considering chinese medicine or indian medicine, but I'm skeptical(haha) if I could find a doctor who actually meditates and truly knows about how to help my specific issue.

 

I also thought maybe accupuncture could speed up my progress in meditation, but I realized that might just be me looking for a magic pill where there is none. There's no alternative to sitting through all my sensations and emotions to cultivate mindfulness/concentration, is there?

[Aetherous]

As a Chinese medicine practicioner and cultivator, I tell my patients that self cultivation is the best medicine.

 

What do you personally practice, as well as recommend to others, for cultivation?

[松永道]

I also thought maybe accupuncture could speed up my progress in meditation, but I realized that might just be me looking for a magic pill where there is none. There's no alternative to sitting through all my sensations and emotions to cultivate mindfulness/concentration, is there?

 

Depends what you are cultivating. If you're working on equanimity, the process of making peace with unpleasant sensations is the cultivation. Treating them won't speed up your progress, it will just make you more comfortable.

 

What do you personally practice, as well as recommend to others, for cultivation?

 

Cultivation is solving the problems in front of you. If your garden has irrigation problems, that's what you need to deal with first, then you can think about how to grow great tomatoes. So the only thing I can reccomend for others is to find as many ways as possible to honestly diagnose the problems you face. And then start by addressing the most mundane, immediate problems and work from there. Almost always that's going to involve sorting out your diet, family life, work situation, and general fitness before moving on to higher level stuff like neigong and meditation. It's higher level because it's built on a solid foundation, not because it's better. Better is relative.

 

That said, my cultivation now revolves around delivering better medical treatment. I generally like shaking, Taiji and strength training to get my body stronger, more energetic, relaxed and connected. Then I practice a Daoyin set to develop my ability to influence qi movement more strongly and specifically in myself and patients. Finally if I have time and will in the evening I'll do a vipassana sitting practice.

 

Priority practices are done in the morning, evening is extra credit assuming study, work, and family obligations all get taken care of.

[blue eyed snake]

this is a very interesting conversation between chidragon and Song Yongdao,

 

thanks!

 

BES

[shunka]

I don't believe in chakras. Or blockages. Or emotional baggage surfacing itself as a physical sensation. And I am still very skeptical, despite this strange phenomenon that is happening to me. I'm quite certain I don't have any heart or heartburn issues.

 

Please, as pragmatic and scientific as possible....

 

And yet, you are doing meditation and breathing exercises ....

 

 

Some of The previous posters, (who are far more schooled than I ) did point out the problems with "scientific" explanations.

 

I can tho, offer this - is it perhaps pragmatic enough ? :-)

 

Decades ago I was a know-it-all engineer who (whilst fascinated with the complexities of the universe) did not beleive anything I could not measure with an oscilliscope ( or some other such scientific equipment ) .

 

Then at an Aikido seminar, Tohei Sensei picked me (who was trying to "not be seen") out of literally over a hundred people to demonstrate Shomenuchi Iriminage with Jo staff. First, he "disappeared" and I found myself on the mat whilst he had the stick. 8 Times . Then he threw me to the mat multiple times without ever touching me, in front of a dozen different witnesses, as a Ki demonstration . His hands never got any closer than 2 feet to me.

 

That experience opened my eyes and changed my path.

Perhaps this little story may help you change your outlook.

 

yhs

shunka

Edited January 19, 2015 by shunka

[ragamor]

Why chest pleasure/pain during meditation?

 

It's very much alike kunlun, I just call it kunlin energies when it happens (sorry if name is taken).

To my limited knowledge it tends to bring about change to inner and outer self (aura etc).