Source Posted January 12, 2015 Im not a year in to these things, and realized i have my hands full with Zhan Zuang and Damo Mitchells intro practice to Neigong.Yet i want to incorporate some more stuff and i keep getting pulled towards beginner Bagua circle walking, and Tajiquan. Yet i was wondering if anyone with experience on both, could tell me which would give me more spiritual value in terms of clarity, creativity etc.Cheers! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
henro Posted January 12, 2015 I think it depends on the teacher, and their emphasis…. 6 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Chang Posted January 12, 2015 They are both of great value but it will depend very much on the teacher. A good teacher in either art will take you far whilst a poor teacher will take you nowhere. 4 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
soaring crane Posted January 12, 2015 It's been said twice, but worth repeating -- Teacher. School. Neither of the two disciplines are going to open their true spiritual sides to you without a huge investment in time, and very diligent practice. And to acheive that, you need a good teacher. Here's a test to identify a bad teacher: S/he can answer your question with one or the other alternative. 4 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
joeblast Posted January 12, 2015 Im not a year in to these things, and realized i have my hands full with Zhan Zuang and Damo Mitchells intro practice to Neigong. Yet i want to incorporate some more stuff and i keep getting pulled towards beginner Bagua circle walking, and Tajiquan. Yet i was wondering if anyone with experience on both, could tell me which would give me more spiritual value in terms of clarity, creativity etc. Cheers! your zen teacher would be sure you received the stick for that question 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted January 12, 2015 Tai Ji start with slow movement then fast. I was told by the Bagua people that they do the movements faster than Tai Ji even at the beginning. However, Tai Ji may always be practiced in slow form. IMO The slowness in the form gives me more spiritual value. Spiritual value means more toward the cultivation of the mind. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Brian Posted January 12, 2015 Tai Ji start with slow movement then fast. I was told by the Bagua people that they do the movements faster than Tai Ji even at the beginning. However, Tai Ji may always be practiced in slow form. IMO The slowness in the form gives me more spiritual value. Spiritual value means more toward the cultivation of the mind. I'm not sure I understand the meaning of that last sentence, CD. Would you expand upon it a little, please? 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Source Posted January 12, 2015 Thanks for the fast replies guys!Yeah im willing to invest time and energy into these things, i live in Scandinavia and strapped for cash atm.But for future notice, any tips on where i could travel nearby? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Daeluin Posted January 12, 2015 (edited) Tai Ji start with slow movement then fast. I was told by the Bagua people that they do the movements faster than Tai Ji even at the beginning. However, Tai Ji may always be practiced in slow form. IMO The slowness in the form gives me more spiritual value. Spiritual value means more toward the cultivation of the mind. In my experience, the same principles apply, speed wise. Can't move fast without being able to move slow. But baguazhang is considered a graduate level art. Taijiquan tends to move forward, back, left and right. It really helps build a foundation in working in different linear directions, and learning to develop the circle within the square, the spiraling, fluid motion that needs to exist inside of the straight line movements. Xingyiquan incorporates diagonals and five phase work, building on the yin-yang exploration of taijiquan, but is still very linear. But baguazhang incorporates all of that spiralling power into circular movements that are designed to express in any direction at any time. Baguazhang has application for multiple opponents in multiple directions, and one needs to be aware of all angles simultaneously. I've been told that, traditionally, one should walk the circle for a decade before learning the baguazhang form. I perceive this as a principle, not a rule, and view the emphasis given to circle walking as a key to unlocking the secrets of the bagua form. Perhaps people teach / practice bagua fast without really developing a foundation, or perhaps the move fast because they've already developed a foundation. Who knows? I'd imagine bagua is more spiritual, but as others have said it totally depends on how the internal is taught and developed. A friend of mine once joined a bagua school that was totally external oriented, and I doubt this approach would take one very deeply down a spiritual path. This is why I feel people should let their heart and intuition to guide them to the right teacher, who might not even teach martial arts. The better you're able to get in touch with your heart, the more confidence you'll have that you're walking the road you that aligns with your destiny. Edited January 14, 2015 by Daeluin 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Source Posted January 12, 2015 Thanks Daeluin for the extensive answer Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted January 13, 2015 (edited) Tai Ji start with slow movement then fast. I was told by the Bagua people that they do the movements faster than Tai Ji even at the beginning. However, Tai Ji may always be practiced in slow form. IMO The slowness in the form gives me more spiritual value. Spiritual value means more toward the cultivation of the mind. I'm not sure I understand the meaning of that last sentence, CD. Would you expand upon it a little, please? I believe when the word "spiritual" was mentioned is always have something to do with the mind. You should be aware of that I had done a translation in the Dual Cultivation of Xing(mind) and Ming(body). I was advised not to put a label on oneself because it is meaningless. Well, how can a Taoist without a label and try to talk like one....??? In order to keep my spiritual mind in tact, I had labeled myself as a "Wu Wei Taoist". Now, I got this out of the way; I can speak freely. To a Chinese Taoist, cultivation of the mind is basically to have the mind in a nonchalant state. It doesn't mean that a Taoist is carefree about anything. Actually, a Taoist is always care about everything and assure that Nature is never go off course. Having a peaceful mind will keep one's mind in a high state of alert. The calmness of the mind will able one to see things clearly for making a better judgement. It will prevent one from taken an action irrationally. One will have full mental control of anger by keeping one's poise. All arguments are handled in a friendly and peaceful manner. Finally, the best policy is to beware of the unexpected silently; and handle adversity with calmness. Tai Ji will keep the practitioner in a state of serenity at all times. The slowness of the movement will keep the body in a state of easy and soft flow while the mind is indulged in an irenic mood. Edited January 13, 2015 by ChiDragon Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Astral Monk Posted January 13, 2015 If youre already doing standing post practice you cant go wrong with adding a little tree circle walking. The trees can give you some spiritual advise, if you listen closely. 8) 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RobB Posted January 13, 2015 Where are you in Scandinavia? Serge Augier has students in both Oslo and Copenhagen. Google 'Da Xuan' Cheers Rob 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Source Posted January 13, 2015 Super helpful forum 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
soaring crane Posted January 13, 2015 I wish I lived in Oslo :-) http://www.taiji.no/ http://www.oslowutan.com/ 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RobB Posted January 13, 2015 Well then: http://www.daxuanschooloslo.com/ http://www.sergeaugier.com/news-en/the-real-deal-from-arne/ Just for clarity, I'm not one of Serge's students. I have attended a couple of seminars with him and my own teacher speaks very highly of him. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Source Posted January 13, 2015 @soaringcraneHehe! Oslo can be super boring, aside from the women i dont think youre missing out on much.@RobBSent him a mail earlier today, thanks.Appreciate the signposts given here! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
doc benway Posted January 14, 2015 Im not a year in to these things, and realized i have my hands full with Zhan Zuang and Damo Mitchells intro practice to Neigong. Yet i want to incorporate some more stuff and i keep getting pulled towards beginner Bagua circle walking, and Tajiquan. Yet i was wondering if anyone with experience on both, could tell me which would give me more spiritual value in terms of clarity, creativity etc. Cheers! My $.02 - People are spiritual, not practices. Practices have no inherent spirituality, they are just frameworks and labels. You can find the most profound realization through shoveling shit and can gain nothing from the most profound spiritual practices if you don't approach them properly. The degree to which taiji and bagua can yield spiritual results probably depends more on the mind you bring to them and that has a lot to do with how you are taught. I've practiced and taught both and for my own spiritual growth and sustenance I practice and recommend meditation. 5 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Trunk Posted January 14, 2015 (edited) Just my own history with these three... (I studied taiji for very short times from several teachers, and longer from a purchased video.) I found taiji to be a very accessible engaging entry into rooting and flow, but found that I wasn't getting whatever pieces to unravel myself + gain integration past a modest place. The unraveling tools were not enough, in my case. I studied with a xingyi teacher. Directly, in-person, if xingyi is appropriate for you: amazing, amazing. I have difficulty imagining that anyone learns xingyi effectively from a video or book. Maybe that's my bias from having studied that art from a teacher. Bagua I am learning from video. I find it accessible enough that I am getting progress that imo is beneficial, and is continuing. And the various twisting methods are a kind, detailed way of... bodywork. There are quality inexpensive bagua videos posted in other threads (a bagua resources pinned thread). To repeat what everyone has already said: If you find a really good teacher in-person, any of those arts can be ... well, a rare opportunity. What each individual needs at any phase in their life... art, school, teacher, method... hard to say. As many paths as there are people, right? Edited January 14, 2015 by Trunk 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeform Posted January 14, 2015 (edited) I've not met or studied with Serge Augier - but I've heard very mixed things. Damo is an excellent teacher in both neigong and the internal martial arts. He often teaches in Sweden - and his workshops are reasonably priced. You're in for a treat Edited January 14, 2015 by freeform 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Astral Monk Posted January 17, 2015 Taiji is the supreme ultimate--the harmony of yin and yang. It emerges from wuji, emptyness. The first move in taiji sets, variously considered 'opening to Taiji', is all you need to attain the dao. Wuji stance is key. From stillness comes movement. Bagua zhuang deals with constant change, constant movement, the arrangement and interplay of the 8 trigrams. I think continuing deeply into zhan zhuang (stillness), complimenting it with basic taiji chuan movmements (movement from stillness) and walking, with an opening or closing routine of bagua zhuang circle walking (always turning to the middle) is the way to go. Ultimately, all IMA flow together as one. Each porthole opens into the ocean of qi. 8) 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Trunk Posted January 22, 2015 Gotta say, if I had to do again ... I'd go to bagua a lot sooner. What it does re: bodywork and spiritually, really really helpful. The coiling articulation of the spine, super important, helpful. Very hard to find anything comparable in other systems. Easy to find in bagua; it's built-in. The twisting helps with all kinds of articulation and circulation that ... solves/avoids a lot of difficulties. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Polaris Duke Posted July 12, 2018 On 1/14/2015 at 12:25 PM, freeform said: I've not met or studied with Serge Augier - but I've heard very mixed things. Damo is an excellent teacher in both neigong and the internal martial arts. He often teaches in Sweden - and his workshops are reasonably priced. You're in for a treat @freeform You mentioned that you've heard mixed things about Serge Augier's system, would you be able to elaborate?. I am interested in his online school but it's a bit pricey, Is it worth it? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gerard Posted July 12, 2018 (edited) To answer to the OP's question: 1. Bagua. Tai Chi doesn't connect well with the internal organs ---> It misses completely the I Ching and TCM principles derived from the Huangdi Neijing. Complete healing and full opening cannot occur as a result. Unless someone is born virtually with light blockages and starts as a child (highly evolved human born in remote Asian village). How many people really qualify for this? Percentage wise maybe 0.00001% of the world's population. Bagua deletes everything if someone trains exclusively following this format: A. Foundation work B. Circle walking. Slow (strongly rooted style) and low/semi-low if starting at an older age. Progressive work until this level is reached C. No fancy forms. Only 8MP work D. Trains in the park (or any other natural environment) near trees 2. Student's hard work. It's harder to find a good student than a good teacher 3. Teacher belonging to a traditional lineage Edited July 12, 2018 by Gerard 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
