Je ne suis pas Charlie

[Owledge]

How is what happened in France connected to the cocaine industry please? Not a challenge, I'm genuinely intrigued.

Might be better to just visit the World at War thread, otherwise this thread here might transform into another lengthy political conspiracies exposition.

[joeblast]

*shrugs* the two subjects heavily overlap.

 

we go invade and bomb places, then encourage some of the pissed off residents to come live with us, play both sides of the fence of tolerance and free speech to the point of complete incoherence, the security services assist thugs in getting deeds done.

 

I dont know who wants those deeds done more, the thugs or the security services that provide the ground and all the water and sunlight that plant needs to ripen and grow.

 

I mean....calling that spade a spade would kinda be like saying the farmer is responsible for having a garden grow in his backyard.

Edited January 16, 2015 by joeblast

[GrandmasterP]

" I mean....calling that spade a spade would kinda be like saying the farmer is responsible for having a garden grow in his backyard."

 

A lady, admiring the vicar's garden said to the minister.....

"God has certainly given you a beautiful garden vicar."

The vicar replied...

"You should have seen the state of it when He had it to himself."

 

Edited January 16, 2015 by GrandmasterP

[joeblast]

as what is planted grows and is cultivated, bears fruit.

 

so are we judging by what fruits the world is tasting?

[GrandmasterP]

as what is planted grows and is cultivated, bears fruit.

 

so are we judging by what fruits the world is tasting?

 

Exactly.

It's the cultivation that counts.

Left to nature or human-nature's own devices things can be kinda messy.

Without responsibility few would have rights because the irresponsible would go unchecked.

We need to cultivate toleration but temper that with justice.

Hence I believe that just retaliation is essential in the real world.

[joeblast]

well, that's why its important to actually find the real root of an evil, because cutting off a digit or an appendage is not going to even come close to finishing the job.

[dust]

明道女孛 The bright way seems hazy,

遲道女曼 The slow way seems fast,

進道若退 The way forward seems to retreat

 

GD 25 (WB 41)

 

 

失道而後德 When the Way is lost, there is virtue,
失德而後仁 When virtue is lost, there is kindness,
失仁而後義 When kindness is lost, there is justice,
失義而後禮 When justice is lost, there is ritual;
夫禮者忠信之薄而亂之首 Ritual is the husk of faith and loyalty, the beginning of confusion

 

WB 38

 

 

Though some of my opinions on the Laozi are a little controversial, perhaps, I do agree with much of what it says.

 

I'd say all this talk of justice is... not helpful.

Edited January 16, 2015 by dustybeijing

[Marblehead]

 

I'd say all this talk of justice is... not helpful.

Yep. Justice is subjective. It will be very different as viewed by the accuser than it will be as viewed by the accused.

[ralis]

Chris Hedges on Roots of Terrorism, Free Speech Hypocrisy & Translating #JeSuisCharlie

 

Chris Hedges is a Pulitzer Prize winning journalist.

 

His interview begins at 8:12

 

Edited February 3, 2015 by ralis

[joeblast]

 

I'd say all this talk of justice is... not helpful.

not helpful to the banksters

 

until the fraud is prosecuted the status stays quo

 

that necessarily entails dispensing of justice

 

i.e. the banks that lent greece money by and large should fail, because they breached their own fiduciary duty by lending exorbitant amounts to someone who they werent all that sure could pay it back - but then again, look more closely and it was part of the plan from the get go, because it would have been bad for greece to get brics financing.

[dust]

You say they "should" fail...

 

though there is a part of me that enjoys revenge stories immensely, and yearns for the blood of those who some might perceive as unjust and evil, there is also part of me that doesn't believe in "should". There is only what happens. And if you want a certain result, striving and pushing for justice won't necessarily help matters.

 

Even on TTB this isn't particularly commonplace in socio-political discussions, but I'm just going to quote Laozi again, as I believe that there is some great wisdom in there:

 

 

Therefore when Tao is lost, there is goodness
When goodness is lost, there is kindness
When kindness is lost, there is justice
When justice is lost, there is ritual
Now ritual is the husk of faith and loyalty,

the beginning of confusion.

 

 

I'm not suggesting that you should be kind to the bankers...just that demanding "justice" usually -- and historically we have much evidence for this -- ends up in a vicious cycle of blame and hatred. I won't be a part of it.

 

And besides all that, in the end, nobody really gives a shit. The vast majority of people, as long as they have their iPhone and Audi and shopping excursions on Saturdays, are quite content with the status quo.

[Owledge]

...And if you want a certain result, striving and pushing for justice won't necessarily help matters....

At some point you realize that you have to respect people's will. And if people are making a conscious decision to be wicked, then it is appropriate to give them hell. Anything else would only feed their corruption. No real change without intention to change. Some have to be coerced into merely adapting, or worse.

If you keep trying to change those who don't want to change, it reveals that you have an emotional attachment based on your own goals, which is a vulnerability that will be exploited, and then you become complicit, because you're basically demon fodder. ... A bit like when people don't care about PC security, saying they are open and have nothing to hide, and then their computers are used for DDoD attacks.

Edited February 3, 2015 by Owledge

[dust]

At some point you realize that you have to respect people's will. And if people are making a conscious decision to be wicked, then it is appropriate to give them hell. Anything else would only feed their corruption. No real change without intention to change. Some have to be coerced into merely adapting, or worse.

 

What about,

 

"The fearless responds to violence with love."

 

?

[Owledge]

What about,

 

"The fearless responds to violence with love."

 

?

The fearless doesn't try to accomplish anything.

And if the fearless keeps sending love to those who don't appreciate it, he might eventually find himself having picked up some nasty fears.

Nothing is perfect or static. Everything is in motion. If the fearless isn't in danger of falling, it means he's dead. Or outside of karma, to use a different view. And the catch with being outside of karma is that it's pointless to stay here. You can't affect anything anyway. Time to move on then.

Edited February 3, 2015 by Owledge

[dust]

If the fearless doesn't try to "accomplish" anything, he has no need for love or hate, and terrorists and bankers are of no consequence to him.

 

Despite the quote from you in that last comment, I don't actually necessarily agree that anyone must be fearless, or respond with love to any particular person or situation.

 

We must respond with our natural emotions, because that's all we have. And if our natural emotion is hate, we must figure out what to do with that hate. We don't necessarily have to kill people with it, and certainly hatred is of no use if one wishes to see the world happier and less full of fear and hatred.

[joeblast]

dusty, and what would you do, walking down the street, happening to glance over in an alley, seeing a woman getting mugged? say oh....well...I shouldnt be dispensing justice???

 

all that is required for evil to thrive is for the just to do nothing.

[dust]

Someone getting mugged?

 

Depends. I'd probably run away. Am I going to risk my life for a stranger's purse? Could be me next. Call the police from a safe distance.

 

 

I'm not against violence, per se. Change the above scenario to someone getting raped, and yes, I would certainly run in there and rip off the rapist's cock. But not out of some social sense of justice and righteousness -- out of a natural desire not to have people get raped...!

 

My natural response to the Hebdo murders, if I were related to the victims, would be to find the killers and rip out their throats. Again, not out of a sense of "justice", but from my inborn desire for personal retribution. Cows and dogs and lions and all manner of animals kill to protect their young, their loved. For justice?

 

And what do you think the Hebdo cartoonists were acting out of? What do you think their killers were acting out of?

 

It's not Tao, it's not goodness, it's not kindness.

 

It's justice, righteousness... these people who scream "I have a right to free speech! I'll kill for my rights!" and "You have no right to draw the Prophet! I'll kill you for blasphemy!"... they have lost all grip on reality.

 

Justice, to be justified, to be righteous, righteousness -- nothing more than excuses for feeble ideals. We need to get past that shit.

 

 

 

Therefore when Tao is lost, there is goodness
When goodness is lost, there is kindness
When kindness is lost, there is justice
When justice is lost, there is ritual
Now ritual is the husk of faith and loyalty,

the beginning of confusion.

[shunka]

Greetings My Dear Bums -

I am Back from a long hiatus to check in on how folks are doing as the world goes through more dramatic change than most of us ever thought.

 

 Reviewing old threads it is interesting to see how little has changed, except for the worse...

Sorry to resurrect a 5 1/2 year old thread... but this jumped out at me.

 

On 2/3/2015 at 1:20 PM, joeblast said:

dusty, and what would you do, walking down the street, happening to glance over in an alley, seeing a woman getting mugged? say oh....well...I shouldnt be dispensing justice???

 

all that is required for evil to thrive is for the just to do nothing.

 

On 2/3/2015 at 4:40 PM, dust said:

Someone getting mugged?

 

Depends. I'd probably run away. Am I going to risk my life for a stranger's purse? Could be me next. Call the police from a safe distance.

 

 

I'm not against violence, per se. Change the above scenario to someone getting raped, and yes, I would certainly run in there and rip off the rapist's cock. But not out of some social sense of justice and righteousness -- out of a natural desire not to have people get raped...!

 

My natural response to the Hebdo murders, if I were related to the victims, would be to find the killers and rip out their throats. Again, not out of a sense of "justice", but from my inborn desire for personal retribution. Cows and dogs and lions and all manner of animals kill to protect their young, their loved. For justice?

 

And what do you think the Hebdo cartoonists were acting out of? What do you think their killers were acting out of?

 

It's not Tao, it's not goodness, it's not kindness.

 

It's justice, righteousness... these people who scream "I have a right to free speech! I'll kill for my rights!" and "You have no right to draw the Prophet! I'll kill you for blasphemy!"... they have lost all grip on reality.

 

Justice, to be justified, to be righteous, righteousness -- nothing more than excuses for feeble ideals. We need to get past that shit.

 

 

 

Therefore when Tao is lost, there is goodness
When goodness is lost, there is kindness
When kindness is lost, there is justice
When justice is lost, there is ritual
Now ritual is the husk of faith and loyalty,

the beginning of confusion.

 

This struck a chord with me, because about 2 years ago. My wife was in the hospital and I was meditating, and praying for her very life. I was literally sleeping in her hospital room to protect her from harm (long story) . I stepped out to get a thick foam camping sleeping pad from W-mart ( old bones you know) and just as I locked the car door in the parking lot I heard

"help help he stole my purse!"

 

and I saw a young man charging up the parking lot aisle with the purse towards me yelling "oughta my way!"

 

several adult males just complied.

 

I did not even think, I just reacted ( probably not good, definitely not mindful )

I charged toward him.

He yelled "I got a gun man!"

I bellowed back ( mindless reaction) "SO DO I"  ( but I didn't)

He turned tail back to  the store. and then I mindlessly kept bellowing "STOP THIEF" (as if he would)

Adult males from all over the parking lot heard and responded, and converged on him. (now I know why we yell this)

 

Ultimately he was surrounded except for one space at his back.

He threw the purse to the ground and "the crowd" let him run away.

Several adult males showed up with weapons and asked "the crowd"  "should we get him?"

I said "We are not the police. He left the purse. Let it go".

The woman got her purse back intact.

It held all her ID and "stuff" but more importantly ALL HER Household CASH as she was going into W-mart to shop for family food.

She was unhurt.

 

SO.

 

What was I seeking?  Justice? Retribution? Revenge? 

I don't think so - otherwise I would not have said "let it go"

 

I was instrumental in stopping a robery that would have caused great harm to the woman and family.

I was instrumental in stopping a revenge beating.

I witnessed (and participated) in a community coming together spontaneously and  positively in a crisis.

"We" may have taught the perp that his actions were not going to be tolerated.

It is possible that the event might have planted a seed of change in the perp's mind.

Or not.

 

However, the outcome was clear and quite simple:

We stopped harm in progress.

We "did no harm".

 

I am not "proud of myself", rather I am now questioning myself.

I have meditated and prayed about this event quite a bit.
did I risk my life over a purse and some cash?  ... quite possibly . My GungFu is not as good as it was.

was it a very smart thing to do on my part?  .... probably not

did I even think about it?  ... no. I "reacted mindlessly" . While my wife was in the hospital depending on me

would I do it again? ... I must suspect almost certainly. It seems to be part of my core being.

 

Sooo....

At the level of the terrorist attacks?

How would I react?

I honestly will not know unless it happens

and I really do not want to put it to the test.

(Be wary of asking a question, lest the answer come in ways unexpected )

One can discuss at a very high level, motives, justice, cycles of revenge, governments, agendas, ulterior motives, manipulations,

on and on ad infinitum.

 

But at the most simplistic daily level it comes down to this.

John Stuart Mill, said in 1867:

“Bad men need nothing more to compass their ends, than that good men should look on and do nothing.”

( in support of  JoeBlast' quote)

 

But at the same time, this, from Dust:

Therefore when Tao is lost, there is goodness
When goodness is lost, there is kindness
When kindness is lost, there is justice
When justice is lost, there is ritual
Now ritual is the husk of faith and loyalty,

the beginning of confusion.

 

 

yhs

shunka

Edited September 10, 2020 by shunka
thoughtfulness

[thelerner]

In tune with the Tao:

to follow ones true nature

without fear or calculation,

 

Hopefully with it,

We get goodness,

we get kindness

We get justice

Ritual, we can probably do without.

[Owledge]

2 hours ago, thelerner said:

In tune with the Tao:

to follow ones true nature

without fear or calculation,

 

Hopefully with it,

We get goodness,

we get kindness

We get justice

Ritual, we can probably do without.

That's a very big and difficult question to explore.

There is helpful and harmful idealism. If we get rid of idealism and just act based on our nature, will everything not go a comparable path?

Also, how can we exclude fear from our nature?

Might the inconvenient truth be that to create a better world we have to take the difficult personal responsibility of putting the effort in to make sure our chosen ideals are beneficial?

So often we see how the choosing of harmful ideals is so very easy, convenient. What separates us. Giving in to the mind. ... What connects us seems to difficult to cultivate, since it requires to erode the mind's power schemings.

[silent thunder]

5 hours ago, shunka said:

Greetings My Dear Bums -

I am Back from a long hiatus to check in on how folks are doing as the world goes through more dramatic change than most of us ever thought.

 

 Reviewing old threads it is interesting to see how little has changed, except for the worse...

Sorry to resurrect a 5 1/2 year old thread... but this jumped out at me.

 

 

 

This struck a chord with me, because about 2 years ago. My wife was in the hospital and I was meditating, and praying for her very life. I was literally sleeping in her hospital room to protect her from harm (long story) . I stepped out to get a thick foam camping sleeping pad from W-mart ( old bones you know) and just as I locked the car door in the parking lot I heard

"help help he stole my purse!"

 

and I saw a young man charging up the parking lot aisle with the purse towards me yelling "oughta my way!"

 

several adult males just complied.

 

I did not even think, I just reacted ( probably not good, definitely not mindful )

I charged toward him.

He yelled "I got a gun man!"

I bellowed back ( mindless reaction) "SO DO I"  ( but I didn't)

He turned tail back to  the store. and then I mindlessly kept bellowing "STOP THIEF" (as if he would)

Adult males from all over the parking lot heard and responded, and converged on him. (now I know why we yell this)

 

Ultimately he was surrounded except for one space at his back.

He threw the purse to the ground and "the crowd" let him run away.

Several adult males showed up with weapons and asked "the crowd"  "should we get him?"

I said "We are not the police. He left the purse. Let it go".

The woman got her purse back intact.

It held all her ID and "stuff" but more importantly ALL HER Household CASH as she was going into W-mart to shop for family food.

She was unhurt.

 

SO.

 

What was I seeking?  Justice? Retribution? Revenge? 

I don't think so - otherwise I would not have said "let it go"

 

I was instrumental in stopping a robery that would have caused great harm to the woman and family.

I was instrumental in stopping a revenge beating.

I witnessed (and participated) in a community coming together spontaneously and  positively in a crisis.

"We" may have taught the perp that his actions were not going to be tolerated.

It is possible that the event might have planted a seed of change in the perp's mind.

Or not.

 

However, the outcome was clear and quite simple:

We stopped harm in progress.

We "did no harm".

 

I am not "proud of myself", rather I am now questioning myself.

I have meditated and prayed about this event quite a bit.
did I risk my life over a purse and some cash?  ... quite possibly . My GungFu is not as good as it was.

was it a very smart thing to do on my part?  .... probably not

did I even think about it?  ... no. I "reacted mindlessly" . While my wife was in the hospital depending on me

would I do it again? ... I must suspect almost certainly. It seems to be part of my core being.

 

Sooo....

At the level of the terrorist attacks?

How would I react?

I honestly will not know unless it happens

and I really do not want to put it to the test.

(Be wary of asking a question, lest the answer come in ways unexpected )

One can discuss at a very high level, motives, justice, cycles of revenge, governments, agendas, ulterior motives, manipulations,

on and on ad infinitum.

 

But at the most simplistic daily level it comes down to this.

John Stuart Mill, said in 1867:

“Bad men need nothing more to compass their ends, than that good men should look on and do nothing.”

( in support of  JoeBlast' quote)

 

But at the same time, this, from Dust:

Therefore when Tao is lost, there is goodness
When goodness is lost, there is kindness
When kindness is lost, there is justice
When justice is lost, there is ritual
Now ritual is the husk of faith and loyalty,

the beginning of confusion.

 

 

yhs

shunka

The timing of your return here is very welcome.

Wisdom and Heart are like a salve right now.

 

You sharing your story bolsters my heart and reminds me that we are stronger together and is evidence that for most folks, coming to the aid of someone in need is not a 'choice' but a driving force in our essence.

 

I had a confrontation a few years back with three young men in their 20's... I was nearing 50.

That I managed to confront, diffuse and avoid violence, in hindsight is staggering to me... I still have no 'conscious knowledge' of how I managed to face them all down, without needing to touch anyone and without it escalating.

 

Presence and purpose (neither of which had a whiff of conscious intent, only pure mindless authentic reaction) and the calling of the heart to those of like mind is a remarkably potent force.  One that has almost nothing to do with the conscious mind, but wells up from our core and has the force of authentic life loving essence behind it, (which i suspect is why it sometimes works so well.)

 

*deep bow*

 

Stopping harm, preventing harm and aiding in healing are perhaps the most noble of actions in my opinion.

 

Thanks again for sharing, these kinds of stories bolster my hope and my heart and that is quite needed of late.

 

Edit to add:  Your actions in your encounter to me are a prime example of Wei Wu Wei... which I've always translated as 'act without forcing' instead of 'action without acting'.  When we do not resist authentic response, sometimes action arises, sometimes no action arises... either way, when arising authentically such action or no action seems to carry additional proactive force.

Edited September 11, 2020 by silent thunder

[shunka]

Thanks very much for your replies, I do appreciate them!

 

5 hours ago, silent thunder said:

I had a confrontation a few years back with three young men in their 20's... I was nearing 50.

That I managed to confront, diffuse and avoid violence, in hindsight is staggering to me... I still have no 'conscious knowledge' of how I managed to face them all down, without needing to touch anyone and without it escalating.

 

 

Oddly, my training for the last several years included, especially, de-escalation and "blending" . Instead my

"inner berserker" tried to sort of take over - but fortunately not completely.

 

I am reminded of the story of a 3rd dan black belt who was "encumbered" by her purse and umbrella, and was mugged.

She reacted instinctivley and ...

beat her attacker into unconscousness with the umbrella.

 

walk in beauty

shunka