The deep significance of the placebo effect

[Nikolai1]

FmAm - where did your post go? I need it to reply!

[FmAm]

FmAm - where did your post go? I need it to reply!

It didn't come out the way I wanted to, so I removed it. Here are the main points, if i remember them correctly.

 

1. We are not the body and not the mind, because there isn't an unmoved mover anywhere, except the impersonal, meaningless and non-volitional universe - the whole. If there's an 'I', it's in the body-mind and it's fully spontaneous (which means it's not in 'my' control) and an inseparable part of the causal chain.

 

2. Mind and consciousness are like a flying tennis ball. Nothing more special.

 

3. If we are not the body and not the mind, there's no illness either. If there's something to be cured, then we are the body and the mind. There's no existence for 'me' beyond the body-mind.

 

4. I didn't write this. My brain did. At the same time, a feeling of an 'I' writing this arose in the body-mind.

Edited February 11, 2015 by FmAm

[Nikolai1]

Hi FmAm,

 

 

We are not the body and not the mind, because there isn't an unmoved mover anywhere, except the impersonal, meaningless and non-volitional universe - the whole.

 

As we awaken, what happens is that the categories of body and mind become increasingly interchangeable. We never lose the sense of selfhood, of identity. Never. Rather our sense of selfhood expands beyond the usual confines of the individual body.

 

We can look at something previously impersonal like the the tree in the garden and feel the sense of personal recognition in exactly the same way as we get when we look in the mirror.

 

In the egoic state we have no choice but to view a stone as inert, lifeless matter in contradistinction to that which is animate. in the awakened state a stone has exactly the same mind-body duality as the egoic self does in the unawakened state.

 

What you call the 'whole' therefore has two aspects - body and mind, just like the ego. You are right to call it impersonal, meaningless and non-volitional but you forget to call it also personal, meaningful and purposive.

 

Now it is true that in order to see the cosmos in this sense we must adopt the standpoint of the so-called witness, which is a thoroughly non-dual and therefore quite empty standpoint, but this standpoint cannot be talked about nor debated so it can be safely left out of this thread.

 

 

If there's an 'I', it's in the body-mind and it's fully spontaneous (which means it's not in 'my' control) and an inseparable part of the causal chain.

 

Yes this is true, but only if the I is the unawakened egoic I. When the I has been awakened the laws of causality become much wider and fuller because of the increase in volitional consciousness. Causal chains that once seemed made out of iron necessity are now opened up and become more shapeable by the expanded self's will power. If strange uncanny things are starting to happen then its a sure sign your self is expanding. Earlier in the thread Blue Eyed Snake talked about removing a beetle infestation simply by psychologically reclaiming the house - its a good example of this.

 

 

Mind and consciousness are like a flying tennis ball. Nothing more special.

 

I think you mean that they are simply effects of physical causes. This statement is the polar opposite of what I've been presenting in this thread and therefore marks a very important phase in our intellectual development. It is of equal value to what I've been presenting here: which is that mind is always the cause and matter always the effect.

 

 

If we are not the body and not the mind, there's no illness either. If there's something to be cured, then we are the body and the mind. There's no existence for 'me' beyond the body-mind.

 

Illness is always a part of life, even to the awakened 'whole' person. The difference is that to the awakened person there is far more conscious control over the progression of the illness. Illness kills even the saint, but it is with their consent and very often prior knowledge. No saint has gone to his deathbed 'raging against the dying of the light'. It would be totally impossible.

 

Those who fall ill and wish not to succomb simply decide not to give the illness any conscious attention. Then the illness simply withers away. An unawakened person believes that the illness strikes that part of them over which they have virtually no control - the body. They then resort to external methods to treat what they believe is an external illness - medicine, magic, qigong. This is a very long and convoluted way of doing things. The placebo effect demonstrates that is unnecessary, but only the awakened person can see the unnecessity and then act on it.

 

 

I didn't write this. My brain did. At the same time, a feeling of an 'I' writing this arose in the body-mind.

 

The next step for you is to start to feel the I operating in ways that contradict the known laws of matter. Next feel the I-ness in the stone in your garden!

 

All the best, Nikolai

Edited February 11, 2015 by Nikolai1

[FmAm]

As we awaken, what happens is that the categories of body and mind become increasingly interchangeable. We never lose the sense of selfhood, of identity. Never. Rather our sense of selfhood expands beyond the usual confines of the individual body.

 

We can look at something previously impersonal like the the tree in the garden and feel the sense of personal recognition in exactly the same way as we get when we look in the mirror.

 

In the egoic state we have no choice but to view a stone as inert, lifeless matter in contradistinction to that which is animate. in the awakened state a stone has exactly the same mind-body duality as the egoic self does in the unawakened state.

[...]

I think you mean that they are simply effects of physical causes.

[...]

The next step for you is to start to feel the I operating in ways that contradict the known laws of matter. Next feel the I-ness in the stone in your garden!

The question is, what do I see when I look in the mirror and when I look a tree or a rock. Do i see myself just like i see the tree or the rock? My answer is yes. I'm nothing more or less than a rock in this world. This is just what I've been trying to explain here, but you seem to ignore it. It's all about acceptance and giving up. That's all the freedom there is. And it isn't in anyones control to choose the freedom. Thing are just as they are. Always.

 

The world isn't an extension of 'me' or the ego. 'My' will power isn't mine. Will has no power, it's just something happening. A rock is just something happening. What's the difference? I don't see any difference. I see myself just like I see a rock.

 

I don't care if the cows are flying. If they do, it's just happening. I don't care if I feel like I'm causing the flying cows. If I do feel like that, it's just happening without me really controlling anything. No big thing. Flying cows are just like a flying tennis ball. What happens, happens.

 

When I'm pointing at the 'physical' world, I'm just pointing at the reality. Matter and mind are just words. What is happening is the reality.

Edited February 11, 2015 by FmAm

[Nikolai1]

Yes I definitely get you. Great post!

[Nikolai1]

Hi all,

http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20150210-can-you-think-yourself-to-death

Here's an interesting article from the BBC today on just how subtle the placebo / nocebo effect really is. It also includes a discussion on the role of nocebo in creating real side effects. What it doesn't mention is that these side effects then go on to generate their own placebo healing.

Its a consistent phenomenon, but medicine has never really dealt with it, says Ted Kaptchuk at Harvard Medical School.

Well thankfully the TaoBums are!

Here's the transcript of an interview with a woman who went through a near death experience followed by an amazing recovery from cancer. Her comments on the attitudes to health in society at the end are pretty thought provoking.

conscious.tv/text/27.htm

Best wishes, Nikolai

Edited February 12, 2015 by Nikolai1

[blue eyed snake]

Hi Nikolai,

 

the second link doesn't work, could you replace it? Would like to read it,

 

thanks

[Nikolai1]

Hi BES,

 

Sorry I can't get that link to work.

 

Go to conscious.tv website, then click 'transcripts' then click fourth on list: Anita Moorjani.

 

You can also watch the interview on the same site.

 

Let me know what you think!

[KenBrace]

I wish I had a placebo meter. Sometimes it can be frustratingly difficult to decided whether or not some things are real or placebo.

[blue eyed snake]

Hi BES,

 

Sorry I can't get that link to work.

 

Go to conscious.tv website, then click 'transcripts' then click fourth on list: Anita Moorjani.

 

You can also watch the interview on the same site.

 

Let me know what you think!

 

Thanks for posting, found it interesting and seems to confirm my viewpoints.

See no reason to discuss it further here. our viewpoints are to far apart

[Nikolai1]

Oh come on. Why did it confirm your viewpoint?

[blue eyed snake]

oh well, I should know better though,

on your own head be it.

 

the BBC-link, interesting examples, but I wouldn't dub them placebo- effect. that't doesn't cover it. It's a tag misused imho.

 

Many more examples are to be found in the realm of psychological research. They don't know what causes it, to tag it placeboeffect is imo not a resolution. First, they should learn to do proper research, repeating experiments as their beta-collegues do, but that a sideline here, just my continuing dissatisfaction with the way psychological research is put to work. They start fiddling around with research-designs before they've properly replicated it. that's no science, that' s stacking of a bunch of explorative designs until you have so many trees that you can only see the wood instead of the group of trees that you were investigating, sorry, rambling....

 

Most heard and realistically idea is something as shared (sub) consciousness. Can be seen in a lot of animals, think of sheep. One sheep comes aware of a predator, next second the whole herd is preparing for that predator. So it clearly an adaptive mechanism.

The more individual things are mind, it's true that people can think themselves ill. It far more difficult to think yourself well, has much to do with how deeply your biochemistry is out of whack and underlying genetic causes play a role too.

 

Lately I've read some research about the same thing happening with plants .Research-design looked sound to me. researcher couldn't find better words than "shared consciousness" his colleagues were not happy. All small seedlings did send their roots in the direction of the most nutrition, even though the seedlings at the far end of the row weren't able to detect that because in their direct vicinity the nutrition was not heightened. Had some more details of course, but that was the gist of it. As adaptive as the sheep-example.

 

so, best hypothesis is something like shared subconsciousness. The BBC story ends with:

<he says. (expectation) “It is not enough to overcome disease – but it is indispensable.”> so that's not your line, but it is mine.

 

The woman having a near death experience, if this is a true story, which I assume it to be.

what I know of it, these experiences have an enormous impact on people, they generally feel touched with grace, describe golden light or energy and an all-encompassing feeling of being loved to the core. Just as this woman tells us.

 

Earlier I've said something like: ' unexplained' healing comes from moving energy, this energy touches neuro-biology so that the biochemistry of the body can heal itself. The amount of energy that she was immersed in was..huge...And the expectation that you'll be healed is an important factor. Chi follows where yi goes. She had every reason to believe, she was given the choice to go back. And trust me, that is a feeling she is never-ever to forget.

As a sideline, there are reasons to believe that part of the meridian-system is embedded in the lymphatic system.

This story is a beautiful illustration of my idea that both energy and expectation are needed for healing that is not brought about by western medicine.

 

 

Now, when you're coming back with the: the woman believed thus she healed. My answer would be that this woman is dissolving her ego. Imo ego has its foundations on useless old emotions, fear the most important one, ingrained in our mind. You just can't let go of these ingrained emotions, you can't suddenly change that, unless you let your ego dissolve, which is not something we see daily.

[Nikolai1]

Hi blue eyed snake,

 

 

Most heard and realistically idea is something as shared (sub) consciousness. Can be seen in a lot of animals, think of sheep.

 

When you read my posts I've invoked he idea of a shared consciousness rather a lot, so we're not disagreeing there.  In a clinical trial it is the fully conscious expectation of healing that creates the healing, and it is the full that makes it so powerful.  Information that comes from the shared consciousness very rarely enters individual consciousness except when the sense of selfhood is reduced, as in sleep.  But just because it isn't in full consciousness doesn't mean that it isn't influencing our behaviour.  This is how the students reacted unconsciously to the LSD in the coffee in accordance with the more powerful conscious beliefs held by the person who spiked the coffee. 

 

The more individual things are mind, it's true that people can think themselves ill. It far more difficult to think yourself well, has much to do with how deeply your biochemistry is out of whack and underlying genetic causes play a role too.

 

The only reason its hard to think yourself well is because we very strongly associate ourselves with our bodies, and all the biochemical imbalances our body has.  The only antidote to this is any authentic spiritual activity which leads us to know that our true identity has nothing whatsoever to do with our bodies.  When we know this, it is just the same to think ourselves well or ill.

 

This is a very bog point and pretty much divided people on the subject of the placebo.  Simply put, if you don't know your True Self, you have no choice but to know yourself falsely, which is as individual bodies and minds.

 

No doubt about, realising that our private consciousness might actually be shared is a very big step beyond the narrowness of ego life.  But the highest point is when we realise that there are no actual individual entities to do the sharing.  Then consciousness becomes one.

 

You can see three levels of truth - the private, the shared and the universal.  Each level is the truth for those who haven't awakened to the higher level. 

 

My answer would be that this woman is dissolving her ego. Imo ego has its foundations on useless old emotions, fear the most important one, ingrained in our mind. You just can't let go of these ingrained emotions, you can't suddenly change that, unless you let your ego dissolve, which is not something we see daily.

 

We agree on Anita Moorjani.  The important point I took from it was that she needed no regime of treatment, no beliefs in a regime.  All she got was realisation of her true self and that was healing enough.  This is the true healing that I have been talking about since the beginning of this thread.  From the highest perspective, all auxillary beliefs about healing regimes are just that, auviliary and a distraction.  This is why I have argued against any suggestion of biochemical role.

 

You say ego dissolvement is not something that happens daily.  I agree, which is why I have consistently supported and endorsed the pharmaceutical industry and recommend anyone to see their doctor unless they 100% know and believe that they don't need to.

 

I always try to argue from the highest perspective my mind has reached.  Unfortunately truth at the high level is falsehood at the lower, which is why I've had little sympathy on this thread.

 

All the Best to you, Nikolai