Why Daoism over Buddhism

[Oneironaut]

On 1/18/2021 at 9:12 AM, dmattwads said:

 

It has begun to occur to me that perhaps my feelings for Buddhism have cooled a little bit recently because I think it may have given me somewhat of a negative attitude as it does seem somewhat nihilistic me. It seems like a lot of nothing nothing nothing which I don't think is actually correct but I think that's the version of it that I had been taught by a lot of the western theravada teachers especially this one monk that's on YouTube a lot that always looks like he's chronically depressed.

 

One needs to look at some of the Buddha’s own words for evidence to see that he could be quite the nihilist. 

 

I also found many of the Theravadin monks to be a shell of a person. Their personality and emotions are seemingly blunted.  I nearly became like that and immediately ceased practice some time back. I’m now trying to undo some of this. 

[Maddie]

20 minutes ago, Oneironaut said:

 

From my limited perspective I found Taoists cultivate kindness and compassion through inner smile practices instead of Metta. I have found the inner smile practice through the zen school I briefly attended and they emphasize smiling through the middle energy center. Other zen traditions may emphasize different things. We even had a sitting small heavenly circuit practice. 

 

The Zen schools are (in my opinion) far more balanced than the elder schools that neglect the physical body. From the zen schools I have learned that the body is an important vehicle and it greatly effects our mental states (A well cultivated mind can also lead to physical well being). According to my zen teachers robust health and a well cultivated physical body is a huge asset for Buddhist meditation practice. It would be wise to take care of it. Theravadins are probably the last people to take advice from when it comes to physical health. 

 

Inner smile was one of my first practices. I liked it but also found it that it dug up a lot of emotional baggage but I also combined with the healing sounds so I'm not sure which one was doing the digging.

 

6 minutes ago, Oneironaut said:

 

One needs to look at some of the Buddha’s own words for evidence to see that he could be quite the nihilist. 

 

I also found many of the Theravadin monks to be a shell of a person. Their personality and emotions are seemingly blunted.  I nearly became like that and immediately ceased practice some time back. I’m now trying to undo some of this. 

 

So are you finding that it is taking time to undo the effects from Theravada practice?

[Oneironaut]

9 minutes ago, dmattwads said:

 

Inner smile was one of my first practices. I liked it but also found it that it dug up a lot of emotional baggage but I also combined with the healing sounds so I'm not sure which one was doing the digging.

 

 

So are you finding that it is taking time to undo the effects from Theravada practice?

 

These results are my own subjective experiences. I cannot say how it’s going to affect others as I could only speak for myself. I have met lay practitioners of over 20 years and they’re perfectly content people. 

 

Personally, I am finding its taking me some time to undo the negative effects. On the bright side I don’t think it’s something irreversible.

[Maddie]

3 minutes ago, Oneironaut said:

 

These results are my own subjective experiences. I cannot say how it’s going to affect others as I could only speak for myself. I have met lay practitioners of over 20 years and they’re perfectly content people. 

 

Personally, I am finding its taking me some time to undo the negative effects. On the bright side I don’t think it’s something irreversible.

 

I was curious because I'm finding that the effects do not go away quickly for myself either. Most Theravada lay practitioners don't actually do much cultivation as its mostly a merit making religion for lay people so there is probably not much to undo for most.

 

[Oneironaut]

36 minutes ago, dmattwads said:

 

I was curious because I'm finding that the effects do not go away quickly for myself either. Most Theravada lay practitioners don't actually do much cultivation as its mostly a merit making religion for lay people so there is probably not much to undo for most.

 

 

I have been a lay practitioner myself even though there would be times where I would practice a whole lot. My practice sessions were rather intense due to all the mental chatter but there were also times of such a profound peace on and off the mat. I even found myself conscious in my dreams on a longer and more consistent basis. If I were willing to abandon everything, completely detached from everything I am as a human being I could see myself going to live in the forests of Thailand then perhaps continuing with these practices would make more sense. 

 

There were also times where I would randomly come upon levels of wisdom and insight that would surprise me. I know this to be a result of practice. I may have made rapid advancements in some aspects of practice but I’m not willing to go to such drastic measures. Such levels of detachment are inhuman in my personal opinion.

Edited January 26, 2021 by Oneironaut

[liminal_luke]

On 21/1/2021 at 8:09 AM, dmattwads said:

 

One thing at the time that really attracted me to Buddhism was the emphasis on kindness and compassion. Is this emphasized to the same level in Taoism? 

 

 

In Mantak Chia´s fusion stuff (I know, horrors!) there´s some work that involves cultivating the virtues of the organ spirits, which includes kindness and compassion.  Still, I don´t think there´s an emphasis on compassion in Taoism like you´d get in Metta practice for example.  

 

That said, I do think Taoist practice develops kindness and compassion, among other virtues, because that´s who we are.  I believe our deepest nature is to be loving beings.  For the most part, Taoism takes a backdoor approach to this kind of cultivation: less talk, more gathering chi and clearing channels.  That´s OK.  When the chi is gathered and the channels are clear, kindness will blossom.  

Edited January 26, 2021 by liminal_luke

[freeform]

1 hour ago, liminal_luke said:

kindness will blossom

Yup. Uncontrived virtues are key for the Daoists.

 

However it’s also true that when you get accepted into traditional Daoist lineages, there are certain rules you agree to abide by. Kindness is often one of them.

 

———

 

The nihilistic attitude comes about through incorrect meditative practice - which is very common.

 

Seeking emptiness is the problematic part.

 

The heart-mind works on a Yin - Yang principle...

 

Emptiness is often created by generating Yin - basically dulling the mind into a death-like state.

 

This does produce stillness - and has some benefit if you’re super anxious and stressed for instance... but it’s a kind of sedation - like self administered anaesthetic.

 

Daoists seek to find stillness at the very point when yin and yang are perfectly balanced... it’s like balancing an egg on it’s sharp end... difficult, but possible.

 

This sort of stillness is the doorway to that which is beyond yin and yang - the primordial light of Shen.

 

Its like a pregnant stillness... on the verge of giving birth to the 10,000 things... but brought to stillness you get the opportunity to return to that which births.

 

———

 

The problem with Buddhism (in the west in particular) - there’s sooo much theory... so many texts, so much discussion - all the emphasis is on a rational sort of understanding.

 

The Daoist emphasis is on practice. Do the thing to find the answer. There’s much more nuanced understanding of practice itself (not just insights about the nature of things).

 

Daoism is small - and not all of it has been dumbed down for the masses. But getting access to the non dumbed down stuff is pretty hard...

[anshino23]

37 minutes ago, freeform said:

Emptiness is often created by generating Yin - basically dulling the mind into a death-like state.

 

Sounds like the issue is that they do not enter a genuine Yin state and instead enter into so-called "dead-tree Zen" which leads to no transformation. If they did generate a Yin state to a high enough degree, I would imagine that Yang should rise? Extreme Yin leading to extreme Yang.  

[freeform]

16 minutes ago, anshino23 said:

If they did generate a Yin state to a high enough degree, I would imagine that Yang should rise? Extreme Yin leading to extreme Yang.  

Not my training method - so my understanding is only theoretical...

 

But the conditions for Yang to arise must be set.
 

So in the more ‘religious’ approaches, one empties themselves (of self) through an act of devotion... but the heartmind is certainly awake - it’s just fully absorbed into an externalised representation of the Divine...

 

Which creates this Yin -Yang tension... Yin on the inside, yang on the outside... and on occasion the Divine fills the space left behind by the lack of self - which results in what devotional paths would call rapture.

 

If the conditions for yang to arise have not been set, then the result is nihilism, depression, sluggishness or just a kind of vacuousness. The ‘dead behind the eyes’ thing.

 

[anshino23]

4 minutes ago, freeform said:

Not my training method - so my understanding is only theoretical...

 

But the conditions for Yang to arise must be set.
 

So in the more ‘religious’ approaches, one empties themselves (of self) through an act of devotion... but the heartmind is certainly awake - it’s just fully absorbed into an externalised representation of the Divine...

 

Which creates this Yin -Yang tension... Yin on the inside, yang on the outside... and on occasion the Divine fills the space left behind by the lack of self - which results in what devotional paths would call rapture.

 

If the conditions for yang to arise have not been set, then the result is nihilism, depression, sluggishness or just a kind of vacuousness. The ‘dead behind the eyes’ thing.

 

 

Makes great sense. Thanks  

[Maddie]

5 hours ago, freeform said:

Not my training method - so my understanding is only theoretical...

 

But the conditions for Yang to arise must be set.
 

So in the more ‘religious’ approaches, one empties themselves (of self) through an act of devotion... but the heartmind is certainly awake - it’s just fully absorbed into an externalised representation of the Divine...

 

Which creates this Yin -Yang tension... Yin on the inside, yang on the outside... and on occasion the Divine fills the space left behind by the lack of self - which results in what devotional paths would call rapture.

 

If the conditions for yang to arise have not been set, then the result is nihilism, depression, sluggishness or just a kind of vacuousness. The ‘dead behind the eyes’ thing.

 

 

So are you saying that nihilism comes from too much yin? and too much yin comes from inappropriate training methods? Also I wonder if this is why a lot of the Theravada monks look like walking corpses to me? 

[Apech]

12 minutes ago, dmattwads said:

 

So are you saying that nihilism comes from too much yin? and too much yin comes from inappropriate training methods? Also I wonder if this is why a lot of the Theravada monks look like walking corpses to me? 

 

Etiolated.

 

[freeform]

10 minutes ago, dmattwads said:

 

So are you saying that nihilism comes from too much yin? and too much yin comes from inappropriate training methods? Also I wonder if this is why a lot of the Theravada monks look like walking corpses to me? 

 

Yes...

 

In Thailand and Burma I saw the normal 'falling asleep during 'meditation', then scrolling through facebook' type monks... but I also saw dedicated, vital and exceptionally skillful monks.

 

The monastery is a microcosm of the outer world - you get all sorts of people... the vast majority are not interested in real cultivation... it's always the small minority who are.

 

Listen to the vast majority and you'll be as lost as they are.

 

I keep seeing discussions about the merits of different traditions, and it feels as though the tradition and the people practicing it are treated as two distinct things.

 

One's entry into a tradition is through teachers... not through books or ideas or various theories.

 

If cultivation is your calling, look for the exceptional cultivators, not the nice sounding tradition. The tradition is very much secondary to the teacher.

[Maddie]

10 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

Yes...

 

In Thailand and Burma I saw the normal 'falling asleep during 'meditation', then scrolling through facebook' type monks... but I also saw dedicated, vital and exceptionally skillful monks.

 

The monastery is a microcosm of the outer world - you get all sorts of people... the vast majority are not interested in real cultivation... it's always the small minority who are.

 

Listen to the vast majority and you'll be as lost as they are.

 

I keep seeing discussions about the merits of different traditions, and it feels as though the tradition and the people practicing it are treated as two distinct things.

 

One's entry into a tradition is through teachers... not through books or ideas or various theories.

 

If cultivation is your calling, look for the exceptional cultivators, not the nice sounding tradition. The tradition is very much secondary to the teacher.

 

The thing I always found odd about the various Buddhist centers I went to learn meditation from was they would say watch your thoughts but do not interfere and I thought okay what do I know but it never quite made sense to me because now that I'm approaching my childhood trauma from a TCM point of view it looks like I was just watching the phlegm and heat without doing anything about it. Ajahan Braham points out an example in the flaw of mindfulness of a security guard being told to be mindful of burglars and then when the people return to their house the entire place has been robbed in the security guard assures them that he was mindful of the burglars going in and out of the house. I think mindfulness is very useful but it seems like by itself it's not enough even though for years I was told it was.

[freeform]

24 minutes ago, dmattwads said:

Buddhist centers I went to learn meditation from was they would say watch your thoughts but do not interfere and I thought okay what do I know but it never quite made sense

 

Very few understand how mindfulness really works...

 

Blind leading the blind.

 

Which is why I say find an excellent teacher... or at least a senior student to an excellent teacher. The connection has to lead to a 'live transmission' - Buddhist centres (or Daoist centres... or Hindu ones) rarely have anything real going on.

 

(please excuse the bluntness - I just dislike seeing people's precious time and effort being wasted)

[JohnC]

What is interesting for me, is that I find a tremendous amount of overlap the deeper I get in these respective lineages.

Emei Qigong from the Emei mountains is also called Linji(rinzai) Emei Qigong, and is a system of Chan qigong.

 

Quote

Emei Qigong is an original and comprehensive system of Chan (Zen) Qigong practiced for the purpose of generating vital energy and attaining higher levels of mental and spiritual clarity. Emei teaches you how to easily and safely build your Qi reserves without taking Qi from other living things or the universe.

https://www.emeiqigong.com/what-makes-linji-emei-qigong-special

 

I'm not sure about the differences of the end goal, but the accomplishment along the way seems very similar, although their Chan orientation seems to hold a high preference towards heart cleansing.

[freeform]

43 minutes ago, freeform said:

Listen to the vast majority and you'll be as lost as they are.

 

The vast majority will preach what they know - and be certain about it... don't fall for it. They'll lead you round in circles.

[liminal_luke]

8 hours ago, freeform said:

 

The problem with Buddhism (in the west in particular) - there’s sooo much theory... so many texts, so much discussion - all the emphasis is on a rational sort of understanding.

 

 

This hasn´t been my experience with real life Buddhism, though it´s very much my experience reading Buddhists posts on the board.  Years ago I attended several vipassana retreats.  Yes, we had dharma talks but the practice, my gosh, that was some of the most intense practice I´ve done in my life.  Perhaps I was just lucky?

 

...........................................................................................

 

In regard to mindfulness: I was told that the aim of meditation is not psychotherapeutic.  It can certainly make people aware of knots in the body-mind, which is always helpful from a mental health perspective, but the intention is not to eliminate our everyday craziness.

[Maddie]

11 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

Very few understand how mindfulness really works...

 

Blind leading the blind.

 

Which is why I say find an excellent teacher... or at least a senior student to an excellent teacher. The connection has to lead to a 'live transmission' - Buddhist centres (or Daoist centres... or Hindu ones) rarely have anything real going on.

 

(please excuse the bluntness - I just dislike seeing people's precious time and effort being wasted)

 

Not just wasting time, but harming ones self as well. I felt like this stuff was about to drive me insane at times.

[freeform]

Just now, dmattwads said:

 

Not just wasting time, but harming ones self as well. I felt like this stuff was about to drive me insane at times.

 

If what's coming up is affecting you emotionally - then there's something missing in your training.

 

The correct way to process this stuff is to set up a way for it to come up and be purged without effort or attachment.

 

[Maddie]

1 minute ago, freeform said:

 

If what's coming up is affecting you emotionally - then there's something missing in your training.

 

The correct way to process this stuff is to set up a way for it to come up and be purged without effort or attachment.

 

 

I agree. I seem to have found this in TCM at least finally.

[freeform]

4 minutes ago, dmattwads said:

I agree. I seem to have found this in TCM at least finally.

 

TCM will help heal the outward manifestation - but the root will remain, I'm afraid. TCM is not cultivation.

[Maddie]

1 minute ago, freeform said:

 

TCM will help heal the outward manifestation - but the root will remain, I'm afraid. TCM is not cultivation.

 

With as much outward manifestation as I've been experiencing this sounds like a great first step lol

[Maddie]

10 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

TCM will help heal the outward manifestation - but the root will remain, I'm afraid. TCM is not cultivation.

 

But in all seriousness I am currently trying to expand the boundaries of TCM to a deeper level at the moment, and see if an can get into the area of Wai Dan a little bit.

*for myself, not my patients.

Edited January 26, 2021 by dmattwads

[freeform]

32 minutes ago, dmattwads said:

*for myself, not my patients.

 

Please be careful. Death is common in 'experimenters'...