Why Daoism over Buddhism

[3bob]

"Sir", that's an awesome word, even neato-keeno dude

[Marblehead]

"Sir", that's an awesome word, even neato-keeno dude

Yeah. Assume my name is Robert:

 

My name is Robert, my friends call me Bob; anyone who messed with me must call me Mister or Sir.

[3bob]

Oakie-doakie Obi-wan Kenobi. Btw, a "long time ago" my daughter never married the guy that addressed me with, "hello Mr. _____ " and as to the how and why of that I will probably never know... although first there is a Mister then is no Mister then there is.

[Marblehead]

Oakie-doakie Obi-wan Kenobi. Btw, a "long time ago" my daughter never married the guy that addressed me with, "hello Mr. _____ " and as to the how and why of that I will probably never know... although first there is a Mister then is no Mister then there is.

Hehehe. I never did figure out why women do the things they do so I just gave up on them.

 

But sure, "Mister" offered willingly is a sign of respect. Nothing wrong with that.

[Kongming]

Interesting discussion to say the least. What would happen if we narrowed the discussion down a bit and compared Daoism and Ch'an/Zen? Are these two more intimately linked than Daoism is with other sects of Buddhism? Are they after the same goal? How compatible are they?

 

For those Zennists on board or Daoists interested in Zen, why did you choose to focus on one over the other?

[Michael Sternbach]

Interesting discussion to say the least. What would happen if we narrowed the discussion down a bit and compared Daoism and Ch'an/Zen? Are these two more intimately linked than Daoism is with other sects of Buddhism? Are they after the same goal? How compatible are they?

 

For those Zennists on board or Daoists interested in Zen, why did you choose to focus on one over the other?

 

I had an early interest in both Zen and Daoism. I was practising Za-zen with teachers in Switzerland and Japan for awhile. But all in all, Daoism seems to be the more lasting influence for me. Zen Buddhism in its traditional form is somewhat nihilistic and rigid, while Daoism is more cheerful and formless which suits me better. But I still resonate with and draw on both.

Edited February 4, 2015 by Michael Sternbach

[3bob]

"are they after the same goat", well - umm

Edited February 5, 2015 by 3bob

[dawei]

"are they after the same goat", well - umm

 

Many foot paths up to the mountain summit...

[Marblehead]

"are they after the same goat", well - umm

You leave my goats alone!

[Marblehead]

Many foot paths up to the mountain summit...

Yeah, but don't be following the goats' path. They experience life differently than we humans do.

[3bob]

Yeah, but don't be following the goats' path. They experience life differently than we humans do.

 

Although in some cases goats are kings of the mountains, going places that even mtn. lions can't reach.

[Jace]

There is wisdom everywhere. I don't think that there is one superior system over another. What we call philosophical Taoism is a precursor to Buddhism. I admire The taoist idea of frameless frame and destroying ones paradigms. Buddhism seems to speak more towards how to walk the righteous path or the Dharma in the face of the inevitable truths: suffering, impermanence. Kabbalah speaks clearly about your souls progression and how the devil is not an individual but rather the opposition trying to pull you off of the righteous path. The devil is not trying to win, it's trying to make you lose and the devil always wants to dance. I'll try to say that there is a pattern and a meter and a timber to the universe and try to help the wandering soul how to understand that to the best of our limited ability.

 

 

To me, almost every religion sends the same message: we all want to live in God's light or the tao or achieve enlightenment. The name is unimportant, it's the objective that counts. It's important not to let systems cloud your judgment. They are tools and nothing more. They are clearly not the answer by and of themselves. Drink deeply from all and move on.

[Daeluin]

Eventually, inevitable.

[Marblehead]

But if you follow no road nor no path then expect to get sticker-burrs on your pant-legs.

[Gerard]

Many foot paths up to the mountain summit...

 

Indeed. Universal principles have no colour or distinction, humans like to categorise things and arrange them in order to form a school or a particular system.

 

Luckily we have a practice called Bagua which encompasses Taoism, Buddhism and Confucianism revelaling all the existing universal principles within the individual rather than seeking a goal, which would only destroy/vanish it. Don't seek, practice and "things" will be revealed slowly (you gain wisdom progressively) and ultimately "go through the opening" when ready.

[zerostao]

;

Edited February 9, 2015 by zerostao

[Daeluin]

This is something I've been contemplating myself lately. It appears that, as you say, Daoists associated with neidan and Quanzhen wish to create some sort of subtle body that will survive death, and it seems highly individualized. This does seem quite a bit different than Chan's intuiting of our primordial original nature or "Pure Mind", Buddha Nature, the Absolute, etc.

 

Then again, I am still not sure if the neidan ideals are different or not. They claim an association with Chan for starters. Second, you often hear them speak of our "primordial nature" or "original nature" much in the same manner. Figures like Liu Yiming and others even go so far as to quote Bodhidharma in a manner by saying "xin (mind, heart-mind, etc.) is the Dao and the Dao is the xin." Then there's the whole famous idea of transmuting jing to qi to shen and then to emptiness--the final stage being described as emptiness sounds quite a bit different than some highly individualized or egoic subtle body. Thomas Cleary's book Vitality, Energy, and Spirit contains this excerpt from a text attributed to Lu Dongbin:

 

"Whenever I see those whom the vulgar call devotees of the Tao, I find that all of them seek to be taken in by spirits and immortals, or they seek lasting life and preservation of wealth by the practice of material alchemy or sexual yoga. When it comes to the great Tao of true eternity, pure and open, tranquil and dispassionate, there are few who are interested in it."

 

Perhaps someone with more knowledge of neidan and its goals can elucidate these points and possible differences further.

 

Was reading in Wang Mu's Foundations of Inner Alchemy (tl. Pregadio) yesterday and came across something related to this, perhaps:

 

 

Zhang Boduan and Buddhism. According to the alchemical methods of Zhang Boduan, one should first cultivate one's Ming (Life) and then one's Xing (Nature), and should first devote oneself to the practices and then to the Way. In his preface to the Wuzhen pian shiyi (Supplement to Awakening to Reality), Zhang Boduan says:

 

Awakening to Reality first attracts one to the practice of self-cultivation in accordance with the bloodline of the divine Immortals, then broadens one's spiritual comprehension in accordance with the wondrous operation of all the Buddhas; and finally leads one away from illusions and delusions in accordance with one's own true enlightened Nature. Thus one returns to the ultimate fundament of absolute emptiness and silence.

 

As shown by this passage, when Zhang Boduan describes the fourth and highest stage of the alchemical practice, he uses Buddhist principles to explicate the "return to Emptiness." This differs from both the Cantong qi and the Ruyao jing. Opening a new path, Zhang Boduan employed Chan as a metaphor for the Dao. Although the respective ways of argumentation are different, his foundation was explaining the Taoist alchemical practice of Xing. In order to widen the vision of his disciples, therefore, he used metaphors of all kinds, and explained the profound meaning of "returning to Emptiness" by means of the Buddhist idea of the "true enlightened Nature."

 

Between the late Tang and the Five Dynasties (ca. ninth-tenth centuries), the notion of the "unity of the Three Teachings" (sanjiao heyi) favored the integration and harmonization of Taoism, Confucianism, and Buddhism. During the Northern Song period (960-1127), the trend toward convergence continued: each of the Three Teachings was explicated by means of the others, and each drew from the others. Zhang Boduan himself was a disciple of Taoism who came from Confucianism and was also engaged in Buddhism. In his preface to Awakening to Reality he says:

 

Since my youth, I have cherished the good Dao. I have inquired into the scriptures of the Three Teachings, and have also made careful and detailed studies of law, calligraphy, mathematics, medicine, divination, military science, astronomy, geography, prognostication, and the arts of life and death.

 

As we can see from this passage, Zhang Boduan was well-versed in the principles of the Three Teachings, and was extremely learned. However, he was ultimately a master of the Taoist Golden Elixir, and he did not convert to Buddhism. During the Qing dynastry, the Yongzheng Emperor (r. 1723-35) issued an edict stating that Zhang Boduan had deeply understood the principles of Chan Buddhism. The emperor gave orders to incorporate Awakening to Reality into the Buddhist Canon and into the Yuxuan yulu (Imperial Compilation of Recorded Sayings). He also granted Zhang Boduan the title of "Chan Immortal" (chanxian). All this was due to the emperor's own study of the Chan principles and to his adherence to those teachings. In fact, the principles of the Pure Cultivation branch (Qingxiu pai) of Taoist alchemy are in agreement with the Chan doctrine of "enlightening one's mind and seeing one's Nature" (mingxin jianxing). Therefore Zhang Boduan certainly drew from the Chan doctrine. However, his essential intent was to elucidate the profound meaning of "refining one's Nature" (lianxing). He was not both a Taoist and Buddhist, and in the appellation "Chan Immortal," the emphasis should fall on the word "immortal." In his preface to the Yuxuan yulu, the Yongzheng Emperor maintains that the three religions (Taoism, Confucianism, and Buddhism) are one, but this only reflects his own views on religion and government.

[gatito]

also I just want to ask one other thing - not of the person who said this especially as this seems to be said and thought of a lot - why do we need to follow a lineage to learn?

 

Someone had to start it somewhere....and this began by observing nature...what was right before their eyes....this is all I chose to do; to not listen to others, to not read books, to not be told....but to see with my own eyes...and it is there, ever-present, everywhere. 

 

Ok, I'll be silent again now

 

I could give you a bit of feedback on this  - if you want to hear it?

 

(Still hoping that we can arrange that meeting in-person BTW)

Edited June 23, 2015 by gatito

[shanlung]

I somehow missed this thread entirely.  Must have been during one of those 76 -86 hours work week in Riyadh where I barely have time to drink when hungry and eat when thirsty or something like that.

 

I am glad it got kicked up to be seen by me now.

 

 

There is an interesting book on the topic Zen Buddhism and Taoism: “Zen is Taoism disguised as Buddhism. When twelve hundred years of Buddhist accretions are removed from Zen, it is revealed to be a direct evolution of the spirit and philosophy of Taoism. Indeed, the literature known as the Lao Tzu and the Chu Chuang Tzu begins a continuous tradition that can be followed through the Ch'an of China to the Zen of present-day Japan. The formative writings of early Taoism are essentially the teachings of Zen.” Here is the link: http://www.amazon.com/The-Tao-Zen-Ray-Grigg/dp/0785811257

 

 

 

Fragments of earlier memories of Taiwan

 

Why I am a Taoist?

 

.  Above will relate how I met a Taoist Immortal , or a Taoist Immortal met me, one day in Ray Fang, a little village in Northern Taiwan on a wind swept and rain swept typhoon day. Who spoke right into my mind.  And influence events even more crazy than merely speaking into my mind.

 

He did not try to convert me to Taoism and not a word of Tao was uttered by him.

His silence on Tao was a lot more eloquent than pulpit standing bible thumping brimstone throwing preachers I met.

 

 

(extract from above)

 

I am now a Taoist, a simple Taoist. The meeting of that monk was that turning point. He never said he was a Taoist or even tried to convert me. For those who wondered just what is Taoism, Taoism is the Zen in Zen Buddism.

 

( what highlighted in bold written for my birdie and beastie friends who have no idea of Taoism , which I know it futile to explain , but have some inkling or heard  of Zen Buddhism)

 

Idiotic Taoist and his fragments of memories 

[Kongming]

Thanks for all the replies in this thread. For me the question has been a tough one. While it isn't essential to pick one and discard the other and while many have emphasized the unity of the three teachings, for those who are actually interested in ordination and priesthood/monkhood, one would obviously have to choose one or the other.

 

I personally love the wisdom found in both, particularly in Chan Buddhism on Buddhism's side. As to practices, I suppose neidan interests me most, but I am also interested in mijiao, i.e. mantra practice.

 

I can say that I plan on continuing to study both throughout my life, but I've long been attracted to the idea of becoming a priest/monk someday and thereby devoting my entire life to a particular path. Perhaps what matters most is meeting a true master.

[ChiForce]

Thanks for all the replies in this thread. For me the question has been a tough one. While it isn't essential to pick one and discard the other and while many have emphasized the unity of the three teachings, for those who are actually interested in ordination and priesthood/monkhood, one would obviously have to choose one or the other.

 

I personally love the wisdom found in both, particularly in Chan Buddhism on Buddhism's side. As to practices, I suppose neidan interests me most, but I am also interested in mijiao, i.e. mantra practice.

 

I can say that I plan on continuing to study both throughout my life, but I've long been attracted to the idea of becoming a priest/monk someday and thereby devoting my entire life to a particular path. Perhaps what matters most is meeting a true master.

I think the difference here is that in Chan Buddhism, because it is actually Taoism in the context of the Buddhist teaching, which may be better in explaining the moral complexity of various concepts such as Karma and rebirth. 

 

When I experienced my Kundalini energy rising some 20 years ago, I had a vision dream.  It was nothing Buddhist or Hindu.  I saw myself as a Han dynasty scholar and warrior dressed in the traditional Han clothing.  I did a MCO in the dream literally using my own body.  I woke up with a kundalini energy rising experience.  I am ethnic Han Chinese.  I studied neither Taoism or Buddhism prior to my Kundalini energy rising experience.  During the past years, I have  been having countless of dream visions about various sambhogakaya beings...from a Quan Yin like figure, to an Ayran/Hindu looking abbot monk, to a Han Chinese Taoist immortal with a glowing white chest.  

 

BTW, those who are really well versed with Taoism and the history of various Taoist schools, what does it mean, in a dream vision, when you see a Master emitting white light from his chest/heart.  I saw this immortal twice back to back dream visions.  He kind of looks like me but not quite.  He was wearing the traditional Han clothing.  In the first dream vision, I was looking at his face and saw his eyes emitting white light.  He was looking at me very attentively.  Next night, I saw his chest emitting white light standing in front of an altar.  I get the sense that he was showing me certain Taoist techniques.

Edited June 25, 2015 by ChiForce

[Kongming]

When I experienced my Kundalini energy rising some 20 years ago, I had a vision dream.  It was nothing Buddhist or Hindu.  I saw myself as a Han dynasty scholar and warrior dressed in the traditional Han clothing.  I did a MCO in the dream literally using my own body.  I woke up with a kundalini energy rising experience.  I am ethnic Han Chinese.  I studied neither Taoism or Buddhism prior to my Kundalini energy rising experience.  During the past years, I have  been having countless of dream visions about various sambhogakaya beings...from a Quan Yin like figure, to an Ayran/Hindu looking abbot monk, to a Han Chinese Taoist immortal with a glowing white chest.  

 

That's interesting that you mention dream visions, because I had one that pointed me in the direction of China (and I believe Daoism) despite the fact that I am an ethnic Westerner. Essentially in the dream I was in an all golden hall with golden flowers as the decorations on the walls (which I later interpreted as connections to the "Yellow Court" and "The Secret of the Golden Flower") and then I picked up a music playing device in which a Chinese woman sang lines or instructions to me which said something along the lines of "Dive deep within and learn to know yourself; silence your mind and keep it silent and you will divinize your mind and become like a god." (Later interpreting the "god" aspect more along the lines of a  真人 or a 仙人.) There was a sense of awe both in dream and upon waking.

 

So while I was already studying various esoteric topics and had an interest in both Chan and Daoism, it wasn't until this powerful dream vision that I decided to begin learning Mandarin and focus my efforts in that direction.

 

Not to go off topic, but has anyone else had any dreams or dream visions that helped or guided them?

[Daeluin]

Not to go off topic, but has anyone else had any dreams or dream visions that helped or guided them?

 

Not exactly dreams, but I was reminded of this. I think guides/entities will use whatever methods available to communicate with us. Some for good, others perhaps not so much. The rest of that thread has some interesting exploration into this.

[Michael Sternbach]

That's interesting that you mention dream visions, because I had one that pointed me in the direction of China (and I believe Daoism) despite the fact that I am an ethnic Westerner. Essentially in the dream I was in an all golden hall with golden flowers as the decorations on the walls (which I later interpreted as connections to the "Yellow Court" and "The Secret of the Golden Flower") and then I picked up a music playing device in which a Chinese woman sang lines or instructions to me which said something along the lines of "Dive deep within and learn to know yourself; silence your mind and keep it silent and you will divinize your mind and become like a god." (Later interpreting the "god" aspect more along the lines of a  真人 or a 仙人.) There was a sense of awe both in dream and upon waking.

 

So while I was already studying various esoteric topics and had an interest in both Chan and Daoism, it wasn't until this powerful dream vision that I decided to begin learning Mandarin and focus my efforts in that direction.

 

Not to go off topic, but has anyone else had any dreams or dream visions that helped or guided them?

 

In one of my fairly infrequent lucid dream experiences, I found myself in a place covered by some kind of luminous fog. The fog was also inside me, especially gathering in the Lower Dan-tian. I could not only see it but also feel it there, which was a most blissful experience. I then saw David Carradine in my dream (he was still physically alive at the time) demonstrating Taiji to me. Whenever he extended his arm for a punch or another technique, a small luminous cloud was emitted from his laogong or hand chakra.

 

While I had been involved with Daoism, Zen and various martial arts already for a number of years, I felt that the dream suggested to me to take up Taji, which became my primary practice meanwhile.

[Basil]

I recieved my first serious introduction to Daoism while in seminary from a friend who was studying religious anthropology. He introduced me to the I Ching and the road into Daoism was started back around 2007/8.

 

I have some familiarity with Zen Buddhism, but have never engaged in serious study. Is Daoism better? I don't know, but it's been a nice walk for me so far.