Why Daoism over Buddhism

[Maddie]

13 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

Please be careful. Death is common in 'experimenters'...

 

Yes but this isn't random experimentation. I'm not trying to "cultivate" but treat.

[forestofclarity]

I think the text issue is more of a problem with Tibetan Buddhist schools in particular. Part of that has to due with the theory that a person should have a complete set of instructions before meditating. A lot of TB retreats are structured around the notion that when you have your teacher present, you should get instruction, and then go off to practice (traditionally you would go off to a hermitage). Also, some TB schools are more practice oriented (like the Kagyu) than others. 

 

Zen and Theravada tend to be very practice oriented, in my experience, to the point where there is, in my opinion, insufficient instruction. Some TB schools have taken a page from the Zen/Theravada book and added more practice oriented elements since Westerners often take the instruction but never practice.

 

I don't agree that the texts are aimed at a rational understanding so much as going beyond concepts. It is not like Western philosophy, in my experience. Some of the online distortion arises because many TB students are allowed to publicly discuss things like emptiness but not allowed to discuss the nuts and bolts of practice. 

 

I do find the notion that there is a rare stream of esoteric teaching open to the very few to be a very Taoist  (among other paths), as opposed to Buddhist. I don't know what the standard post-death teaching is for Taoists, but at least some teachers I've come across have taught that most people will just dissolve into nothing upon death. Whereas with Buddhism, most of us are going to continue the journey, whether in a Pureland or in another life. So a person is merely following the 5 precepts is progressing along the (very long, multi-lifetime) Buddhist path, and so is everyone else. Accordingly, what constitutes the path in Buddhism is very broad. The "dumbed down" approach may be the right thing for that particular person in this particular life. 

 

9 hours ago, freeform said:

———

 

The problem with Buddhism (in the west in particular) - there’s sooo much theory... so many texts, so much discussion - all the emphasis is on a rational sort of understanding.

 

The Daoist emphasis is on practice. Do the thing to find the answer. There’s much more nuanced understanding of practice itself (not just insights about the nature of things).

 

Daoism is small - and not all of it has been dumbed down for the masses. But getting access to the non dumbed down stuff is pretty hard...

 

Edited January 26, 2021 by forestofemptiness

[Apech]

20 minutes ago, dmattwads said:

 

Yes but this isn't random experimentation. I'm not trying to "cultivate" but treat.

 

[Maddie]

20 minutes ago, forestofemptiness said:

I think the text issue is more of a problem with Tibetan Buddhist schools in particular. Part of that has to due with the theory that a person should have a complete set of instructions before meditating. A lot of TB retreats are structured around the notion that when you have your teacher present, you should get instruction, and then go off to practice (traditionally you would go off to a hermitage). Also, some TB schools are more practice oriented (like the Kagyu) than others.

 

Often times in Buddhism the texts become the practice as well.

[freeform]

33 minutes ago, dmattwads said:

 

Yes but this isn't random experimentation. I'm not trying to "cultivate" but treat.

 

Whether random or rational - Waidan is a dangerous thing - unless you have a teacher... and there are not many of them around

 

[Maddie]

1 minute ago, freeform said:

 

Whether random or rational - Waidan is a dangerous thing - unless you have a teacher... and there are not many of them around

 

 

Maybe Wai Dan was the wrong terminology. 

 

My goal is to purge the "phlegm" and heat that my meditation kept digging up but was not resolving.

[freeform]

32 minutes ago, forestofemptiness said:

Some of the online distortion arises because many TB students are allowed to publicly discuss things like emptiness but not allowed to discuss the nuts and bolts of practice.

 

Interesting.

 

Daoists are certainly a lot more forthcoming with the nuts and bolts... although often codified to avoid the non-initiates.

 

 

[Maddie]

7 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

Interesting.

 

Daoists are certainly a lot more forthcoming with the nuts and bolts... although often codified to avoid the non-initiates.

 

 

 

I've often wondered if there was not hidden cultivation lingo in the TTJ?

 

[freeform]

1 minute ago, dmattwads said:

 

I've often wondered if there was not hidden cultivation lingo in the TTJ?

 

 

It's pretty much a manual for Daoist meditative practice

[Maddie]

2 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

It's pretty much a manual for Daoist meditative practice

 

Of course I wonder that about a lot of stuff. Like if the guys that wrote the bible must wonder about evangelicals and are like "I can't believe they are taking this stuff literally?!"

[Sketch]

10 minutes ago, dmattwads said:

 

I've often wondered if there was not hidden cultivation lingo in the TTJ?

 

More and more how I treat the language of the Laozi. 

[Maddie]

6 minutes ago, Sketch said:

More and more how I treat the language of the Laozi. 

 

http://www.meditationexpert.com/comparative-religion/c_Song_of_Songs.html

[Sketch]

That's just a "whatever floats your boat" distinction. 

 

I've been making pretty good headway crossing the river floating on these weird oversized gourds. 

 

Switching to some other floatation device just seems like courting problems. 

 

Even worrying about the ontology seems unhelpful. 

[Sketch]

And really, you can even have a bit of Buddhism inside your Taoism. You've heard me talk about stealing from Buddha's toolbox before. I've got this cool little Allen wrench I'm not planning on giving back.

(just identifying the "floating on gourds " thing. It's Zhuangzi)

Edited January 26, 2021 by Sketch

[Sketch]

 

28 minutes ago, Sketch said:

And really, you can even have a bit of Buddhism inside your Taoism. You've heard me talk about stealing from Buddha's toolbox before. I've got this cool little Allen wrench I'm not planning on giving back.

Literally, my steel mala beads came with a free Allen wrench to adjust the space between beads. Gizmo! Too cool. And figuratively,  the thirty verses on consciousness only were big useful, especially the idea of "storehouse consciousness ".

 

A cornerstone of Yogachara as well as the starting point for the conversation between Chan Buddhism and Taoism. 

Edited January 26, 2021 by Sketch

[Sketch]

 

[awaken]

這兩個系統，表面上看起來是兩個系統，其實是兩個名稱下的無數個系統。

特別是佛教，擁有更多的系統。

道家同樣也擁有許多系統。

對我來說，透過經典所看到的兩者的核心是相同的。

佛教的四禪和道家的練神是一樣的階段。

 

These two systems, which appear to be two systems on the surface, are actually countless systems under two names.

Buddhism, in particular, has more systems.

Taoism also has many systems.

For me, the core of both seeing through the canon is the same.

The Four Chans of Buddhism and Taoism are the same stage.