Letting go of Karma

[carbonbreath]

Let's talk about the nature of karma, and how to let it go! Western and Eastern theories, and approaches.

Edited February 24, 2015 by carbonbreath

[closrapexa]

I don't think the idea of Karma is similar to the Western ideas of sacrifice and retribution... and elightenment isn't necessarily living selflessly for others.

[Flolfolil]

...

Edited March 5, 2015 by Flolfolil

[Chang]

Is Karma determined by societal and social conditioning? How do we know if what happens to us is the product of karma, and not our own doing?

 

Karma is the result of our own doing. Once you truly understand this you have travelled a long way on the path.

[C T]

Karma is not only result or effect, but it is also cause as well. Actually, cause and result arise simultaneously. But often there is a sort of misconception that one arise before the other.

 

According to Buddhist thought, because they arise simultaneously, its wonderful, simply due to the fact that one need not have to trace the past in order to set the present right. Tracing the past is more a western approach, but rather limited in its effectiveness.

 

Just this moment, begin to create positive causes, plant virtuous seeds, and this will naturally result in an auspicious tomorrow.

 

Wherever one is, no matter what has happened, the past is gone. To create the present moment, look at what we are 'causing' with our minds now. If we cling to the idea that our past is fixed and real, then likely we will carry that past like some treasure we own, and then giving it permission to filter into & colour this Now, and thereby, wittingly or unwittingly, allowing this to set how the future is going to turn out. It needn't be this way. To fully understand Karma is to realise that we can control the outcome of how we want tomorrow to turn out, and if it should turn out shitty, don't blame Karma, but learn to grow up and take full responsibility for our own beingness. Buddhism is great in the sense that even if it turns out in a bad way, one can always fall back and allow the understanding of Impermanence to support and re-establish clarity to move forward again.

 

 

edit to add:

 

Like the heady perfume of the lotus blossom, which is carried afar on the warm summer's breeze, the sweet scent of virtue (sīla) is carried afar on the kammic winds of causality. (Tharchin Zangpo)

Edited January 25, 2015 by C T

[wilfred]

you literally are a result of karma. your physical body is a record of it, your current views and attitude - ego, conditioning, is being driven by the current stock and renewal of this karma. our volition is rooted in this charge of feelings/energy and not any mental process. is it karma that some people learn how to 'fruit' or release it? it has to be, but it can get confusing if we're talking about it in relation to whether free will is a thing.

 

if the person lets go of it is it gone? well it is, but depending how deeply you let go it could come back, given the same reactions/situations. it's like an onion there are deeper and deeper layers of this stuff. there's the idea that most of what is happening to you in this life is the fruiting of karma from a previous life. not many people will be able to let go that deeply and gain that level of insight, so much of what we can feel is easily identifiable as our own shit.

 

i've been taught that trying to get to the sqaure root of unwholesome karma (the sense of ourself, that everything is happening to me, pride) is the ticket for dissolving it all faster. unroot the major branches of these negative states of mind and all associated stuff breaks down automatically. personally i haven't been able to make those quantum leaps yet and it's a tough process of letting go of the worst stuff. you have to have equanimity to feelings that surface (will happen naturally through cultivation, retention etc, getting more awareness coming in) and then it's gone, fruited. there are ways to speed this up significantly - meditation practices, psychedelics, rituals etc, but it's not always appropriate or safe to be doing this in the daily life.

Edited January 25, 2015 by wilfred

[3bob]

karma is not just mental concepts that can be dropped...(although such aspects can and do have a part in it) Think of karma as actually being forms and amounts of energy, and the more convoluted and heavy that that energy is the more work it will take to free it and ourselves from it, thus it can be like wearing a coat of rusty, heavy iron that makes everything more difficult or like wearing a thin, clean coat of air that makes for very little restriction. Thus a hundred pounds of rust or one once of air (so to speak) is something concrete like that has to be dealt with even if it was, is or will be involved in a relative past, present and future - now.

Edited January 25, 2015 by 3bob

[The Name]

The question is where does karma begin? If we say that newborn children are entirely free of mental conditional at birth, the child's mental condition is still determined by its parents as it grows up, and their conditioning is determined by the initial condition(ing) of their parents, and so on...therefore I argue that karma is fundamentally the human condition unfolding and it is not determined by our own will. Even the antecedent choices are still determined by the initial conditions which were not under control...

 

Karma is similar to the concepts elaborated by chaos theory, especially the formula which represents the determination of dynamic systems by their initial conditions ("the butterfly effect").

 

If one were to look at it impartially, it seems clear that reality is deterministic to the extent that we are determined by factors different from our thoughts. Totally deterministic.

Edited January 25, 2015 by The Name

[ralis]

The concept of karma is useless if one is unaware of past actions. In this life or past lives.

[3bob]

The Name,

Well that is a big question - but such can also be like a "poison arrow" (a saying from a well known Buddhist sutta)... and regardless of such an arrow -it or karma still has to and ultimately be dealt with right now both mechanically and non-mechanically so to speak. (or both determinedly and non-determinedly if you will?) for if it was not for the non-mechanical factor then we might as well kiss our asses goodbye.

Edited January 25, 2015 by 3bob

[Marblehead]

... just enjoy the suffering.

You are so brave!!!!!

[Marblehead]

The concept of karma is useless if one is unaware of past actions. In this life or past lives.

I'm the only one listening to you and I already know that.

 

[The Name]

The Name,

Well that is a big question - but such can also be like a "poison arrow" (a saying from a well known Buddhist sutta)... and regardless of such an arrow -it or karma still has to and ultimately be dealt with right now both mechanically and non-mechanically so to speak. (or both determinedly and non-determinedly if you will?) for if it was not for the non-mechanical factor then we might as well kiss our asses goodbye.

 

Good point.

[ralis]

I'm the only one listening to you and I already know that.

 

 

The apologists for karma are not able to answer tough questions. The responses are with more belief systems.

[The Name]

The concept of karma is useless if one is unaware of past actions. In this life or past lives.

 

Still, the way you react to that information depends on temperament, personality, ideological framework, etc so ultimately it is still determined although we don't notice this determinism because of our limited perspective, we can only logically deduct from the information available that the web of interrelated systems called life is fundamentally deterministic because the self is still part of the system/s.

Determinism can only be negated if the existence of a soul or transcendent-unconditioned personality is postulated, and since there is no evidence to suggest the existence of personal souls, there is no evidence to suggest that man has the ability to hack the source code and change it.

Edited January 25, 2015 by The Name

[Marblehead]

The apologists for karma are not able to answer tough questions. The responses are with more belief systems.

I do so agree with you but really, it is very difficult to give up one's belief system even if most concepts within prove faulty.

 

Now, in my next life I hope I don't come back as a pig for saying that.

[ralis]

Still, the way you react to that information depends on temperament, personality, ideological framework, etc so ultimately it is still determined although we don't notice this determinism because of our limited perspective, we can only logically deduct from the information available that the web of interrelated systems called life is fundamentally deterministic because the self is still part of the system/s.

Determinism can only be negated if the existence of a soul or transcendent-unconditioned personality is postulated, and since there is no evidence to suggest the existence of personal souls, there is no evidence to suggest that man has the ability to hack the source code and change it.

 

Interesting supposition, but hardly tenable. The problem with the concept of karma is that is was formulated during the Axial Age in a culture that knew very little as to the workings of the cosmos, human nature/psychology, let alone much outside their geographical region. One can argue determinism vs. free will, which solves nothing.

 

It would be apropos to change your world view of humans to include women. I am referring to your use of the outdated term 'man' when referring to the human species.

Edited January 25, 2015 by ralis

[carbonbreath]

Reaction to perception.

Edited February 24, 2015 by carbonbreath

[Jetsun]

Karma is energetic, it has a force, it is the mind which interprets and weaves stories around the energy which keeps it alive and bouncing around. So if you work with the mind you still have the karmic energy to deal with but you are giving the energy an opportunity to release. Or you can surrender your karma to divinity or grace and it can be swept away that way, if it suits what's happening.

[Bearded Dragon]

It's got nothing to do with belief systems, or the past.

 

The first thing you need is to SEE things as they unfold, without bias. Then you have the ability to act without the buildup of karmic energy. There is nothing you can do about past karmic energy. You can only deal with that same energy presently as it arises. Going along impersonally is what stops it from arising, but it's also the turning of the millstone for refinement of perceived past karma as well.

 

There's no need to dress it up.

[ralis]

It's got nothing to do with belief systems, or the past.

 

The first thing you need is to SEE things as they unfold, without bias. Then you have the ability to act without the buildup of karmic energy. There is nothing you can do about past karmic energy. You can only deal with that same energy presently as it arises. Going along impersonally is what stops it from arising, but it's also the turning of the millstone for refinement of perceived past karma as well.

 

There's no need to dress it up.

 

Of course it is a belief system. You can't prove otherwise. To say it has nothing to with the the past contradicts the premise of karma.

Edited January 26, 2015 by ralis

[The Name]

It would be apropos to change your world view of humans to include women. I am referring to your use of the outdated term 'man' when referring to the human species.

 

Thank you for the observation, I didn't want to seem a misoginist. I am actually a feminist, I believe Woman is not man but Übermensch.

..but I'll just use the innacurate term "human species" from now on.

 

 

One can argue determinism vs. free will, which solves nothing.

 

It can solve the problem of suffering about suffering. And it is quite a relief to realize that you are TAO.

Edited January 26, 2015 by The Name

[The Name]

Think about it; if I can change my karma by changing my self-image, then what does that say about karma?

 

Believing otherwise, would be owning a self-image, a view of the world, that includes the idea that karma exists outside of ourselves, thereby giving us an excuse and an open invitation to invite more karma into our world.

 

Good point. So if I understand correctly, what you are saying is that 'self-imaging' is similar to halucinating and karma is when one clings to images and therefore suffers due to the impermanence and 'emptiness' of dualistic illusory phenomena.

 

It's quite interesting to consider that basically all 'bad karma' stems from ignorance, for example greed is the fear of lack, and hate is the fear of hurt, etc etc... So these negative impulses, seen as 'ideological habits', can also be described as bad karma which leads to more bad karma and, as you say, the only way to 'dispell' these is to flow with the Tao, to be aware and re-cognize the essential unity of the whole and realize that fundamentally nothing can go wrong.

Edited January 26, 2015 by The Name

[vonkrankenhaus]

Modern people seem to generally think of karma in psychological terms, such as thinking of good and bad results or outcomes or experiences.

 

Some think of karma in terms of a wide ranging cause and effect - often factoring this to extend across lifetimes, etc.

 

Some people see old text that state things like, for example, if they eat the meat of a cow, then they will be reborn as a cow 10,000 times, and so on.

 

Scientists have a hard time with that stuff.

 

I have always thought that karma is explained in YinYang thinking. Such that you cannot toss me a coin that only has one side. I must accept both sides if I catch the coin.

 

In the example of cow meat, if we examine how long it takes for animal meat protein to be fully processed by our human bodies, we can see that blood plasma is replenished about every 7 days. Blood cells take maybe 3-4 months. And cells in various organs and other systems are said to replenish approximately every 7-8 years. These are physical changes of the type that scientists do measure. There are also vibrational effects, and these are less-studied. As physical forms metabolize, vibration or energy is released. This may include imprints of the experiences of the animals we have eaten and are metabolizing.

 

Can we consider that we are "re-born" each day upon awakening from sleep?

 

If so, and considering the above, the effects of eating the flesh of a cow could be interpreted, traditionally, to have an effect on us for 27 years (10,000 days). This is just a bit more than 3 times as long as it is said to generally take for many body cells to have regenerated. In Taoism it is said that 3 generates the 10,000 things. 3 is a number of "completion" in some systems of thought.

 

What kind of effects? One is the difficulty of breaking down proteins assembled from plant materials by a cow to function as a cow. All animal life has been generated by vegetal life. The cow is eating grasses and making a cow. During the ice age, cows were used in northern areas as a sort of "middle-man" to obtain energy and structure from the kind of compact cold weather tundra and alpine plants that replaced grains and other plants during that time. Ruminants can eat and digest these, but humans have trouble with them.

 

In breaking down the cow's cells by our digestive processes, we are exposed to energy patterns and structures (forms) that contribute and constitute "cow". These will be expressed. One way we express is via our behavior. Some will be metabolized, more or less "fueling" not only our expressions and actions, but also our own structure. It is our immune system which decides what is animal and what is human, and the process of going from animal to human takes more energy and time than the process of going from vegetal to human. So our immune systems change if we do this a lot, as has been done in the western countries. Generally, the change is to make the immune system less sensitive so as to be able to continue. One example is the adaptation to keep having milk long after weaning, and this is the milk of animals.

 

What do we get if we continually breast-feed from another species even long after we wouldn't nurse from our own human mothers, such as well into adulthood? We get sick. This was a compensatory thing, for the ice age, where a cost-benefit assessment was made and something attempted out of desperation, to merely stay alive during that time. Not the way of humanity in general.

 

Another effect is one that people can verify by experiment. Generally, if one eats vegetarian food excusively for some time, and then eats the flesh of an animal once, they often have dreams or nightmares right after doing so. Often, these dreams will have characteristics in them that relate more or less directly to what that animal was going through at the time of its death. Other vibrational patterns besides thoughts or experiences are also happening, and these are being released by our digestive and assimilation processes. We pick these up, feel them, and our organs respond to them.

 

As a baby is gestating in the womb, it is going through a miniature of evolution on Earth. Whatever the mother eats on any given day may have effects that last, for the mother, many years (maybe 27 years as per above). The baby, however, is going through about 280 million years of evolution in 9 months. It will reach a miniature of hominid life at birth, and become like mankind when it stands and talks at around 1 year. Each day to the baby is like thousands of years of evolution in form.

 

So these are some of my considerations regarding karma. I don't want to make this post too long, so I'll stop now - but I just wanted to toss some of these ideas into the discussion. Maybe I expand on it more later.

 

-VonKrankenhaus

[doc benway]

Is Karma determined by societal and social conditioning?

Yes, among other things. Anything that affects your choices and actions leaves traces.

 

 

How do we know if what happens to us is the product of karma, and not our own doing?

The definition of karma is exactly "our own doing"

 

 

Also, how could karma possibly exist anywhere else but in our own mind?

Karma, along with all experience and reality itself, exists in our mind.

How could anything exist anywhere else but in our own mind?

That is a concept that is closely associated with the traditions that embrace karma, in one way or another.

 

 

 

To me, mind programs = karma.

 

For instance, if a person lets go of the cause of some kind of karma in his mind, then he effectively erradicates that karma. However, not everything is easy to let go of. So I suppose, his ability to let go of it is also the product of his karma..

If I murder someone and eventually make peace with that choice and let go of the concept of "karma" (which I believe you are using inaccurately) in my mind, do I (and my victim) not still pay a price?

 

Karma literally means action, not intention.

While intention is related to action, that is a different field of study, I think.

 

Action is associated with consequence.

The sum total of all actions and inter-actions is associated with the condition we find ourselves in.

Each of these players and plays is inseparably related to each other and all contribute to the web.

That is karma.

 

You are speaking more of intention and perhaps even implying some judgement and morality, I think, although I apologize if I am reading too much into your post. One tricky aspect to karma is that the definition, like the concept itself, is elusive and complex. We each color it with our bias and conditioning and then accept or reject it.

 

It's a very simply observation, really -

Do something harmful, harm is likely to come of it.

Do something loving, love is likely to come of it.

 

Your choices, along with those of all other people in all different times, lead right to where you are.

 

It can sometimes be experienced just like that in a very intense, nearly unbearable way -

When you can see all of the little steps that have led you to this moment here and now, in such excruciating detail, and you might see how so many of the people around you were contributing. Such a rich and complex web yet incredibly flexible and responsive. Magnificent!