Vedic Period Indian History and religion 1200 - 600 BC

[Apech]

I am interested if anyone has expert knowledge of the religion practiced in this period. I am particularly keen to look at how Buddhism emerged in the social context of the immediate following period but also with deep respect for Vedas and Vedanta.

 

Following on somewhat from here http://thetaobums.com/topic/37468-why-daoism-over-buddhism/?p=606350

[dwai]

I am interested if anyone has expert knowledge of the religion practiced in this period. I am particularly keen to look at how Buddhism emerged in the social context of the immediate following period but also with deep respect for Vedas and Vedanta.

 

Following on somewhat from here http://thetaobums.com/topic/37468-why-daoism-over-buddhism/?p=606350

The timelines are questionable. Early Vedic period per native/ indian tradition is ~ 7500-6000

bcE

[Apech]

The timelines are questionable. Early Vedic period per native/ indian tradition is ~ 7500-6000

bcE

 

Well I'm basing dates on standard version of history. Those dates would put the Vedas before IVC which doesn't make sense ... but if you can justify (?).

[dwai]

 

Well I'm basing dates on standard version of history. Those dates would put the Vedas before IVC which doesn't make sense ... but if you can justify (?).

The iVC was Vedic civilization. The faulty history that they are not is a combination of British imperialist propaganda and ignorance on part of specifically max muller who dated the rg Veda based on the premise that the world was created around 4000 BCE.

[Taoist Texts]

The iVC was Vedic civilization. The faulty history that they are not is a combination of British imperialist propaganda and ignorance on part of specifically max muller who dated the rg Veda based on the premise that the world was created around 4000 BCE.

apparently he was right on the money cause accepted dates now are

 

 

The Rigveda's core is accepted to date to the late Bronze Age, making it one of the few examples with an unbroken tradition. Its composition is usually dated to roughly between c.1500-1200 BCE.^{[4][5][6][note 3]} Philological estimates tend to date the bulk of the text to the second half of the second millennium.^{[note 4]} Being composed in an early Indo-Aryanlanguage, the hymns must post-date the Indo-Iranian separation, dated to roughly 2000 BC.^[35] A reasonable date close to that of the composition of the core of the Rigveda is that of the Indo-Aryan Mitanni documents of c. 1400 BC.^[36] Other evidence also points to a composition close to 1400 BC.^[37][38]

[dwai]

apparently he was right on the money cause accepted dates now are

 

 

I call bullshit. Internal evidence in the rg Veda dates it's earliest material to between 7500-6000 BCE

 

Moreover the analysis you presented is based on the assumption that there indo-Aryan language evolved from a larger indo-European proto language. The other theory is that indo-Arian languages gave birth to the various indo-European offsprings

 

And further more, the rg Veda references the river Saraswati as the primary river and yet for the longest time Saraswati was considered to be a mythical river by indologists. Satellite imaging found the now dry Saraswati which indeed matches the location and description in the rg Veda. Geology tells us that Saraswati dried up due to tectonic activity around 1900 BCE. Where does it put max muller's opinion then?

 

Mindlessly parroting the "accepted" partyline of the western academics is dangerous because the narrative of the 20th century was tainted with imperialist agenda of the previous two centuries.Traditional scholarship was never collaborated with during majority of that period. Things are changing now - the real history will become evident in the next 15-20 years

Edited February 2, 2015 by dwai

[Taoist Texts]

I call bullshit. Internal evidence in the rg Veda dates it's earliest material to between 7500-6000 BCE

 

 

This is a thrilling topic. Which 3-4 pieces of evidence you consider most compelling?

[Apech]

I was not intending to open up old sores about the Out of India vs. AMT ... I am interested in who knows about Vedic religion in the period immediately pre-Buddha.

[dwai]

 

I was not intending to open up old sores about the Out of India vs. AMT ... I am interested in who knows about Vedic religion in the period immediately pre-Buddha.

You cannot build anything on faulty foundations. That said the popular philosphical framework in the immediately prebuddha times were samkhya and sramana

Edited February 2, 2015 by dwai

[Apech]

You cannot build anything on faulty foundations. That said the popular philosphical framework in the immediately prebuddha times were samkhya and sramana

 

Ok well can you tell me more about them?

[3bob]

another angle is that the "Vedas" as in Sanatana Dharma has no age to it as we know or define such, (thus no particular human founder as most other paths have except for there being founders of particular sects or sub-sects) also a time line related to the gods and or god realms is very problematic for most of us humans besides or since we even have problems in trying to establish rock solid, historically recorded time lines for certain human forms or founders that were only from the very short periods of just a few thousands years ago.

Edited February 2, 2015 by 3bob

[Apech]

another angle is that the "Vedas" as in Sanatana Dharma has no age to it as we know or define such, (thus no particular human founder as most other paths have except for there being founders of particular sects or sub-sects) also a time line related to the gods and or god realms is very problematic for most of us humans besides or since we even have problems in trying to establish rock solid, historically recorded time lines for certain human forms or founders that were only from the very short periods of just a few thousands years ago.

 

The Vedas and the language Sanskrit as cultural artifacts must have a definable age and thus date ... they can't be eternal. You could argue the truths embedded are eternal buts that's a different thing.

[3bob]

Apech, that's true to whatever degree of accuracy for a human type of time line (?) which I'm not versed in...and I imagine is more or less before most forms of written history although such may be passed down in other ways, further if one could speak with Lord Brahma (or Lord Vishnu or Lord Siva or the Lord of Obstacles or...) much more could be ascertained and also in a context related to same from the god realms... I'd add that a relative past and changeable forms is not the core of what Sanatana Dharma via the Vedas and related texts are pointing to...

Edited February 2, 2015 by 3bob

[Taoist Texts]

 

I am interested if anyone has expert knowledge of the religion practiced in this period. I am particularly keen to look at how Buddhism emerged in the social context of

 

The main feature of the social context in those time was an emergence of an independent human consciousness stripped of the supporting social framework of tribal social structure and tribal vedic religion. Being forced to function on its own without the assurance of traditional ethics was putting an enormous pressure on the individual while alive, and at the same time caused the individual to suffer the anticipated fear of disintegration at death.

 

Hence the new teachings (called to life by the fall of the earlier civilisations) sprung across the all strata of hindu society

 

 

 

Apart from the Vedic Brahmins, Buddha's lifetime coincided with the flourishing of other influentialsramana schools of thoughts like Ājīvika, Cārvāka, Jain, and Ajñana. It was also the age of influential thinkers like Mahāvīra, Pūraṇa Kassapa , Makkhali Gosāla, Ajita Kesakambalī, Pakudha Kaccāyana, and Sañjaya Belaṭṭhaputta, whose viewpoints Buddha most certainly must have been acquainted with and influenced by.^{[8][9][note 7]} There is also evidence to suggest that the two masters, Alara Kalama and Udaka Ramaputta, were indeed historical figures and they most probably taught Buddha two different forms of meditative techniques.^[10]

 

By the nature of the hindu society these were varna (or caste) schools, each vying with brahmanism and asserting the superiority of its caste teachings over the brahmanism. In particular krishnaism and buddhism became the religious ideologies of the kshatriya caste.

 

 

 

 

 

http://himalaya.socanth.cam.ac.uk/collections/journals/bot/pdf/bot_07_01_03.pdf

 

 

Historical background:

Ancient history refers to the time period beginning with the first records in writing, approximately 3600 BCE. It ends with the fall of several significant empires, such as the Western Roman Empire in the Mediterranean, the Han Dynasty in China, and the Gupta Empire in India, collectively around 500 CE.

The Bronze Age is the time period in which humans around the world began to use bronze as a major metal in tools. It is generally accepted as starting around 3600 BCE and ending with the advent of iron in 1000 BCE.

The Iron Age is often called Antiquity or the Classical Era, but these periods more commonly refer to only one region. It begins around 1000 BCE with the widespread use of ironin tools. It is often accepted to end at approximately 500 CE, with the fall of the aforementioned major civilizations.

[dwai]

 

Ok well can you tell me more about them?

I will post about samkhya in more detail later. However it is the basis of the theory of materialism in the Hindu framework - it is the first that theorizes on the nature of existence and matter, and how consciousness and matter are related to each other. It is a dualistic framework.

 

It more or less sets stage for the technical terminology used in all of the Indic philosphical systems (that varying sometimes refute it and sometimes accept it and yet other times both accept and refute it based on context)

 

Sramana framework is another topic I'll post material about. If you want a detailed study on these look for a book titled "the fundamentals of indian philosophy" by Dr. ramakrishna puligandla

 

http://www.amazon.com/Fundamentals-Indian-Philosophy-Ramakrishna-Puligandla/dp/8124600872

Edited February 3, 2015 by dwai

[Apech]

Thanks I've ordered that book.

[Andrei]

[Zhongyongdaoist]

 

Thanks for an interesting post Andrei. I don't follow archeology that much and was not at all familiar with these people, but the Wikipedia article:

 

Wkipedia on Cucuteni-Trypillian culture

 

Is very interesting and has some very suggestive information in it.

[Apech]

I will post about samkhya in more detail later. However it is the basis of the theory of materialism in the Hindu framework - it is the first that theorizes on the nature of existence and matter, and how consciousness and matter are related to each other. It is a dualistic framework.

 

It more or less sets stage for the technical terminology used in all of the Indic philosphical systems (that varying sometimes refute it and sometimes accept it and yet other times both accept and refute it based on context)

 

Sramana framework is another topic I'll post material about. If you want a detailed study on these look for a book titled "the fundamentals of indian philosophy" by Dr. ramakrishna puligandla

 

http://www.amazon.com/Fundamentals-Indian-Philosophy-Ramakrishna-Puligandla/dp/8124600872

 

 

Read this book now and also (parts of) Radhakrishnan's two volume 'Indian Philosophy' ... excellent stuff.

[9th]

Yes the sramana tradition was already old by the time the rig veda was written down - which is most certainly at least a number of generations after a strictly oral tradition (seeing as they are verses of song, music).  In particular: see the Kesin Hymn:

He with the long loose locks supports Agni, and moisture, heaven, and earth:
He is all sky to look upon: he with long hair is called this light.

The Munis, girdled with the wind, wear garments soiled of yellow hue.
They, following the wind's swift course go where the Gods have gone before.

Transported with our Munihood we have pressed on into the winds:
You therefore, mortal men. behold our natural bodies and no more.

The Muni, made associate in the holy work of every God,
Looking upon all varied forms flies through the region of the air.

The Steed of Vāta, Vāyu's friend, the Muni, by the Gods impelled,
In both the oceans hath his home, in eastern and in western sea.

Treading the path of sylvan beasts, Gandharvas, and Apsarases,
He with long locks, who knows the wish, is a sweet most delightful friend

Vāyu hath churned for him: for him he poundeth things most hard to bend,
When he with long loose locks hath drunk, with Rudra, water from the cup.

 

And the dualistic conception of reality derives from the concepts of purusha (consciousness) and prakriti (natural phenomena), which is of course a bit more nuanced than those brief words and really parallels a number of systems and traditions in general.  It forms the basis for hindu metaphysics and medicine in many ways.

[9th]

And heres another translation that is probably better:

“The Long-Haired one holds fire, he holds the drug, the Long hair holds Spirit & Nature.

The Long-haired one reveals all, so that all can see the light, the long-haired one so proclaims the light.

These Shamans, skyclad, put on dust clad robes of yellow hue.
When gods enter them, they ride with a rush of wind.

Crazy with Sadhanas, we have mounted the wind, our bodies are all you mere mortals can perceive.

He sails through the air, looking down on all shapes below. The Long-haired one is a friend to this god & that god… devoted to what is well done.

The stallion of the wind, friend of gales, lashed on by the gods- the yogi lives in two oceans, that of Spirit & Nature

Treading the path he moves with the motions of heavenly nymphs, youths, & wild beasts.
He with long locks, who knows their deepest wish, is their most delightful friend

The wind has churned it up: the witch prepared it for him! Now; the Long-haired ascetic drinks from the cup & shares the drug with Shiva!”

 

– Rig-veda; 10;136

Edited March 23, 2015 by 9th

[Maddie]

Found this old thread but though it was interesting. Another interesting topic to consider is the commonalities the Veda's have with the other Indo-European traditions?