Throwing Out The Subconscious or Unconscious Mind

[Nungali]

I have never, ever been one of those. Yes, I have stated that we have limits; both regarding our own capabilities and capacities as well as external limits. But we will never know how far we can go until we start pushing the envelope.

 

Thankyou, Marblehead San, again the wisdom.We all have a potential orbit that we cannot move beyond, but many have no idea how far that orbit does extend.

 

I often feel it is greater than many realise, thats why I am so pushy

 

also, I know there are some that imagine all sorts of things beyond the boundary (remeber my first joke post on the forum about wanting to actually fly, and jumping off a cliff ? )

[Marblehead]

Yeah, jumping off a cliff is easy. Making a soft landing is a little more difficult. Flying, even more so.

[Silent Answers]

If you do decide to leave (and don't think we'll look down on you for changing your mind at the last minute) have another think about those cups.

 

Once a cup is full, it either overflows, or you can empty it...only to start again. No matter which cup you're using, this process will always happen. The result is, you either become part of this emptying and refill process, learning to deal with the repercussions of both actions (to understand why it may cause depression) or you change to a new, often deeper cup...one that you probably wouldn't have found without filling the first cup a few times.

 

Taoism is another cup, but unlike most others, it comes with instructions encouraging us not to let it fill. It tells us to put a few holes in the bottom to allow for some drainage. But even this cup, infinite as it seems at first, is leading you to a life without cups. This is the long game goal.

 

What I'm saying is that it's not only normal, but a part of development for you to feel a need to cling to one cup. You've already talked about putting the cups down for a while...it's good to take a break sometimes. However, you're not ready to live without cups just yet...and when you talk of putting them aside, you're actually still clutching onto the LoA.

 

It's all about ACCEPTING each transition, from cup to cup, understanding the way they fill and empty. Then there's the rest of the crockery in the cupboard!

[Nikolai1]

Some good advice. I would suggest as well that you rest the urge to push away your Christianity. It is a full and perfect spiritual path - no other is needed - although I applaud your courage to explore other paths.

 

Cycle round. Touch base every now and then with the gospels. The letters of saint Paul are chocked full of wisdom, and show very graphically the difficulties that come when ascensions in understanding clash with the orthodoxy.

 

You talked at the beginning about welcoming the contents of your consciousness like passing guests - staying with you a while then passing on. Can a better spiritual practice than this be imagined?

 

You have deep wisdom, but no confidence. But the wisdom will win out.

 

If you abandon this thread, please don't abondon the whole forum.

 

Best wishes, Nikolai

 

[PLB]

Without expressing an opinion about the other opinions given here, I would like to say something about the "tip of the iceberg" metaphor. It has been the underlying idea in a number of maps of the psyche. I propose it also has a life as a sort of incantation given to break a spell.

 

To take a page from the history of physics, consider the case of Descartes claiming that the speed of light was infinite. If no time elapses between the origin and any distant object of a light beam, this particular element is not a part of the things that travel as we understand the word. The absolute quality means the structure of things that do travel in time are fundamentally different from light. People came along after Descartes and demonstrated that light does travel in time and has, in fact, a very specific speed. The deconstruction of the Descartes vision was not an explanation; It was a demand to change the nature of explanations and that process is just beginning, really.

 

Likewise, once one accepts that the "Rational Ego" is not an element that can be seen as fundamentally different from other things, it doesn't explain what it is. The question has to find a new place to start. We are not very far along that path.

Edited January 31, 2015 by PLB

[de_paradise]

I create hypnosis scripts based on LoA principles. I am working on one right now for "6 pack abs" It creates upfront motivation via creative visualization. (Don't eat the cookie because it wont taste as good as flat abs will feel) If you understand how the subconscious mind (subconscious isj ust a label for some unseen parts of our bio-computer) works, you will know its relational, and uses pictures. (Yes! Shut off the sh**t that seeks to take energy away from our positive goals) If you see the words "6 pack abs", I have just created hundreds of pictures of abs deep down in your bio-memory., and you don't know it. What emotions are attached to these pictures creates our behavior. It may be shame. And if its shame, maybe you have a knock-on behavior of putting something in your eating hole to get the rush of good feelings we naturally get from eating. Vicious cycle that's pretty common.

 

All my work in LoA and hypnosis has helped me work out of the big morass of negative feelings and unconscious motivations and thoughts, to get to something quite a bit more aware.

 

Working with seemingly low end topics such as manifesting money has helped me understand a lot too.

 

Michael Beckwith from the Secret fame is the LoA guru I like the best because he is always relating back to spirituality and the path to individual enlightenment. The Seth stuff is good too, at least the way Dr. Hsu Tien Shen eplains it.

[C T]

.. nvm ...

Edited January 31, 2015 by C T

[Nungali]

hmmm ... I had to look that up ;

 

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=nvm&defid=6595066

[Jetsun]

Pretty much every psychological discipline ever invented is based on the fact that there is a subconscious and unconscious, if there isn't then all the millions of people practising and writing books about psychology, psychoanalysis, advertising, hypnosis, NLP, as well as all sorts of areas are all completely deluded. The fact that most of these things work to a certain degree suggests that they are not.

 

Why else would people act like insane idiots all the time and do all sorts of counter productive stupid stuff if there wasn't unconscious motivations?

 

Its true you can't see the unconscious because it is unconscious, but that doesn't mean you can't see its results in your own and others behaviour and become aware of it when something moves from the unconscious into consciousness.

 

With LoA even if it works its all ego based, say you get the Ferrari it may be the worst possible thing for you at that moment, without greater wisdom you could just be inviting misery.

[C T]

hmmm ... I had to look that up ;

 

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=nvm&defid=6595066

 

[Nungali]

Pretty much every psychological discipline ever invented is based on the fact that there is a subconscious and unconscious, if there isn't then all the millions of people practising and writing books about psychology, psychoanalysis, advertising, hypnosis, NLP, as well as all sorts of areas are all completely deluded. The fact that most of these things work to a certain degree suggests that they are not.

 

Why else would people act like insane idiots all the time and do all sorts of counter productive stupid stuff if there wasn't unconscious motivations?

 

Its true you can't see the unconscious because it is unconscious, but that doesn't mean you can't see its results in your own and others behaviour and become aware of it when something moves from the unconscious into consciousness.

 

With LoA even if it works its all ego based, say you get the Ferrari it may be the worst possible thing for you at that moment, without greater wisdom you could just be inviting misery.

 

No .... if I declare it not so using powerful Law of Attraction wisdom, it simply ceases to matter ... pouff! ... gone.

 

And if you say otherwise I will simply go elsewhere ... or run off to my room crying with my fingers in my ears and slam the door (and play computer games all day) !

Edited February 1, 2015 by Nungali

[Marblehead]

Why else would people act like insane idiots all the time and do all sorts of counter productive stupid stuff if there wasn't unconscious motivations?

 

 

Because they are controlled by conscious stupidity?

[C T]

Because they are controlled by conscious stupidity?

Not all are, though, if you think about it. Some very 'normal' people, leading very 'normal' lives, sane by all accounts, simply flip for no apparent reason. Thats all got to do with the subconscious (picture Golum) putting together its own hideously dark puzzle, unbeknownst to observers and even the person himself or herself, and when the last piece drops in place... the rest is history, as they say.

Edited February 1, 2015 by C T

[Marblehead]

Yeah, I generalized and I'm not supposed to do that but I assumed that none would take what I said too seriously.

 

And I do agree with you. Some of us have switches inside and if that switch is tripped it is hard telling what we might do. And yes, in such cases it is likely that the unconscious would have control.

[Nungali]

I will always remember what Ron Hubbard Junior answered (when exposing his father) when he was asked why some of the people in Scientology seemed otherwise smart ( doctors, scientists, lawyers , etc. ) his answer was ;

 

"They may have been intellectually smart ... but they were not emotionally smart."

[Nungali]

Not all are, though, if you think about it. Some very 'normal' people, leading very 'normal' lives, sane by all accounts, simply flip for no apparent reason.

 

 

 

" The subjects of this study came to the attention of friends or the public because of unusual behaviour. The average layman's picture of the mentally ill as raving lunatics is far from reality. Most of these people have become entangled in inner processes and simply fail to manage their lives well. In the hospital most have freedom of the grounds and the average visitor is impressed that, aside from occasional odd bits of behavior, the patients have most of their powers and appear like almost everyone else. Many return home in a month or two, never to need mental hospitalization again. " Dr Wilson VanDusen

[freeform]

Thats all got to do with the subconscious (picture Golum) putting together its own hideously dark puzzle, unbeknownst to observers and even the person himself or herself

 

That's a pretty common 'understanding' of the subconscious. It's also, again, completely counterproductive to any sort of growth. "even the person himself" - like the subconscious is a dark tormented shadow of the real 'person' who's in fact the conscious mind.

 

The subconscious is a facet of who you are. It's in fact the biggest facet. It's more 'who you are' than your conscious mind is. But the conscious mind is a clever little devil, to assert its importance it declares itself as the "I" and the rest as some shadow double interfering with its work. When you say I - what do you mean? How big is the scope of I? I've met teachers that when they say I you feel the energy of the entire universe included... with others you sense a tiny adolescent mind being the "I".

 

The other thing... I take offence at any suggestions that we're in anyway 'sane' Seriously if you've never caught yourself doing something 'insane' - like getting angry at your partner for not taking the rubbish out or for the guy who cut you off at the traffic lights or for getting nervous about a meeting or for feeling awkward in certain situations... Trust me we're all 'insane' - at least from the point of view of the conscious mind, who's bandwidth for observing is about 7 bits of information at any one time.

[PLB]

Another way to look at it is that all the processes of perception are happening simultaneously.

The determination about a course of action comes from decisions about options available at any given point of time. It is less important to have a theory about is what is possible than to have things to do in response to circumstances.

One can be a genius about the former while being totally clueless about the latter.

The way Jung said it evades the problem of definition: How will I become more responsible for my existence?

The question assumes there are givens that one has to simply accept before getting started.

[dawei]

Unconscious

 

We can not be aware of the unconsciousness, because if we aware of it then it is already conscious. So from a purely empirical perspective the unconscious is devoid of any possible existence, or indeed meaning.

 

But your talking about it... so your aware of it... this suggest we can experience it... seems empirical

 

We infer the unconscious because we see ourselves automatically behaving and responding to the world in meaningful and intelligent ways. We imagine that we must possess a storehouse of knowledge that we are unaware of.

 

But our own body is an object in our subjective consciousness in a way that is no different to other objects: trees, stones and so forth.

 

Nature is full of meaningful patterns. If we grant ourselves an unconscious intelligence, then we must for logical consistency, ascribe the whole cosmos with the same unconscious intelligence. The wind blows in autumn in order to remove the leaves from the trees.

 

The concept of a private unconscious is therefore untenable whichever way you look at it. The concept of a private consciousness is also totally untenable for the same reasons - this is a hard statement but fact nevertheless.

 

Now you talk of it as something has made up as 'unaware of'... So now I take it that you have no personal experience yet with reaching the subconscious... and therefore, it does not exist for everyone else too

[Marblehead]

 

The question assumes there are givens that one has to simply accept before getting started.

That is an understatement. One must first assume there is an "I" before one can say "I think".

[Marblehead]

But your talking about it... so your aware of it... this suggest we can experience it... seems empirical

 

 

Now you talk of it as something has made up as 'unaware of'... So now I take it that you have no personal experience yet with reaching the subconscious... and therefore, it does not exist for everyone else too

Have we started circle talking yet?

 

All dreams and all inspirations arise out of the unconscious.

[PLB]

That is an understatement. One must first assume there is an "I" before one can say "I think".

True enough. But Jung was saying more was given than just oneself as the agent "I" if taking responsibility is to be recognized as the highest goal. To open oneself up to that "more" gets expressed in a lot of different ways.

 

That Jung saw responsibility as a process much larger than what was claimed by an "I" is one of those ways. If that sort of assumption is nonsense for a thinker, that is the end of the discussion. That is what I meant about the minimum to get started.

 

It is not the sort of thing that can be proven like a proposition in Mathematics or can be reduced to a matter of logical necessity.

 

There is this country and the shape of its terrain. You either go there and walk the hills or you do not.

Edited February 8, 2015 by PLB

[Marblehead]

True enough. But Jung was saying ...

My knowledge of Jung's psychology is so weak I best just admit that I know nothing of it.

 

I do agree that there is an unconscious and that it is not all driven by sex.

 

I can accept only a small part of his "collective unconscious". (Genetically through the mother.)

 

No, I cannot blame my neighbor when I make a mistake. Collective sharing doesn't go there.

 

I do hold strong to the concept of responsibility but most of my attention is placed at the individual (I) level.

[dawei]

Have we started circle talking yet?

 

All dreams and all inspirations arise out of the unconscious.

 

yes... because there is no separation in the end... just depends on where we are listen.

 

Two names which arise from the same

[Marblehead]

... because there is no separation in the end... just depends on where we are listen.

 

That is a interesting and valid consideration regarding our unconscious/conscious mind.