Throwing Out The Subconscious or Unconscious Mind

[Nikolai1]

We all have our own battles to fight in life.  

 

For some, it seems to come very naturally to find work, get a flat, live a conventional life.  It wasn't hard for them to do, it therefore required no particular merit, and wasn't in any way a battle.  Such people shouldn't congratulate themselves, and shouldn't criticise others whose life has gone differently.

 

We all have our battle, but few ever face up to it.  I think Dreambliss is facing his own battle, his time has come.  

 

I find his writings inspiring and exciting, and I am glad that he takes the time to tell us all about it.  

 

edited to add:

 

We all do things in a different order.  People who on the outside might seem unaccomplished as the world judges, are often very rich, balanced and mature on the inside and have a mastery over themselves that others only have over their finances, children, subordinates at work etc.

 

All they need to do is let their outer circumstances to become stable and autonomous so that they stop disturbing the inner security.

 

But these people who work on the inside first are rare.

 

More common is for people to sort their outer circumstances out first, and then develop emotional mastery in older age as they confront death, illness, physical deterioration and boredom.

 

To the inside first type, these sixty and seventy year olds seem to be walking up for the first time to issues that they themselves had addressed in their twenties or even teens.

 

I think lots of people here will relate to that feeling: of being in a sense older than all the older people around them.

Edited March 19, 2015 by Nikolai1

[freeform]

I apologise - he's living with his grandma not his parents. It's great that he's caring for her - it's an admirable thing to be doing, and I know how much hard work it can be. And it's great that she is able to support DB with a roof over his head, food in his mouth and no need to have a standard job.

 

I think it's a disservice to be saying that he earned a 'mere' $200 for helping acquaintances - why devalue the exact sum that he wanted? Why put a negative spin on it? Doesn't that manifest dissatisfaction?

 

You're seeing my posts in this thread as a disservice and an attack - whereas I'm offering them as a different perspective - something that helps to broaden ones awareness. If support means simply agreeing and pandering to everything one says then a forum is not the place to find it - better write a blog - a forum is a space where different perspectives come together. Sometimes the different perspective doesn't quite make it in, so one pokes and prods and finds holes in the current perspective just to get the mind a little more flexible - a little more capable of seeing a different way.

 

Being offered a different perspective is like going with someone to a sunglass shop - try on a different pair and see how that fits. If there's no subconscious, then why on earth would you be hurt by seeing the world through different lenses?! Why on earth would you refuse to take off your current specs and cling to them like it somehow is part of your identity (especially if there's no subconscious!)

 

DB happily called me 'a fool' for pursuing spiritual goals in a physical universe (actually that's not exactly correct) - I didn't find it offensive or get hurt by it. In fact I kind of enjoy some light teasing. Why would he (or rather weirdly - you - on his behalf) be hurt by me laying out the context around the matter - that he's middle aged, with no job and living with relatives. Do you see how this lifestyle could create a certain tint to one's 'sunglasses'/perspective?

 

Anyway. DB - if you were hurt by my comments, I appologise - that was not my intention. Michael Steinback - well done for standing up for your friend, but I assure you I'm only attacking ideas/thoughts/perspectives, not people - defend perspectives if you must or maybe don't defend but discuss instead.

Edited March 19, 2015 by freeform

[Marblehead]

The mind looks very different looking at it from the inside vs outside.

 

I wonder how one could prove the validity of either view against the other.

That is the reason I prefer using the word "brain" instead of "mind".

[freeform]

That is the reason I prefer using the word "brain" instead of "mind".

 

I know it makes more sense for a materialist - but even then 'brain' doesn't exactly describe the full breadth of what 'mind' means.

[Nikolai1]

The brain is just another fleeting moment of Mind

[Marblehead]

I know it makes more sense for a materialist - but even then 'brain' doesn't exactly describe the full breadth of what 'mind' means.

Yes, I am aware of that.  But beyond the brain, the "other aspects" of mind are near impossible to explain and understand.  Misunderstanding of "mind" abound.  We can get down and dirty with the brain.

[Marblehead]

The brain is just another fleeting moment of Mind

Hehehe.  Funny but I'm not buying.

[Nikolai1]

Only because you can't

[Stosh]

'it' ? 

It , being the mind.  If I read that someone thinks I want to kill my father and have sex with my mother , I dont see that as true , neither do a believe the sweeping statements  folks make about archetypes having something to do with me.  

I do have first hand knowledge of my personal experience, and I don't need to prove it to anyone else,

The psych community has come up with ideas they havent proven,and cant prove, with that level of certainty.

Though I know more than a few folks with problems , I don't know of any the psych community has  cured. 

So while I do like and respect Michael , Ive got a beef with most shrinks. 

[freeform]

Yes, I am aware of that.  But beyond the brain, the "other aspects" of mind are near impossible to explain and understand.  Misunderstanding of "mind" abound.  We can get down and dirty with the brain.

 

I understand - I'm no materialist, but enjoy that perspective. Mind - indeed - is such a loaded term.

 

I suggest 'nervous system' as a better alternative to brain. After all they have been finding brain cells in the gut - along with neurotransmitters and such. My ex girlfriend was prescribed antidepressants for colitis (kind of an autoimmune gut problem that they can't really put a finger on). Also organ memories (or is this too woo woo for your perspective?)

[GrandmasterP]

The brain is just another fleeting moment of Mind

 

 

Fleeting moment of the mind or not...

Without our brain we'd be in a right old mess.

[Nikolai1]

No we wouldn't.

[Stosh]

Yes we would , but its a doubled edged thing.

[Marblehead]

I understand - I'm no materialist, but enjoy that perspective. Mind - indeed - is such a loaded term. I suggest 'nervous system' as a better alternative to brain. After all they have been finding brain cells in the gut - along with neurotransmitters and such. My ex girlfriend was prescribed antidepressants for colitis (kind of an autoimmune gut problem that they can't really put a finger on). Also organ memories (or is this too woo woo for your perspective?)

Yes, I have spoken of the brain, nervous system and senses all being a part of our mind.  But I do find it hard to go beyond that even though I sometimes speak of the mind, soul and spirit.  These are, IMO, consistent with Taoist Philosophy although these are pretty hard for one to put their finger on.

[Marblehead]

No we wouldn't.

You think that way because you have never been brain-dead yet.

[Nikolai1]

You think that way because you have never been brain-dead yet.

 

A cheap shot!

 

Do you know why I might say something like 'I don't need a brain'?

 

Do you know how anyone could say something so outrageous?

[Michael Sternbach]

freeform,

 

That sounds much better.

 

I apologise - he's living with his grandma not his parents. It's great that he's caring for her - it's an admirable thing to be doing, and I know how much hard work it can be. And it's great that she is able to support DB with a roof over his head, food in his mouth and no need to have a standard job.

I think it's a disservice to be saying that he earned a 'mere' $200 for helping acquaintances - why devalue the exact sum that he wanted? Why put a negative spin on it? Doesn't that manifest dissatisfaction?

Well, I said this to correct the idea of the OP just relying on "the kindness and hard work" of others when in fact he is giving his best efforts for his not-always-so-appreciative associates.

 

You're seeing my posts in this thread as a disservice and an attack

No, not in general. But I do see three members implicitly or explicitly calling the OP "a child" and your subsequent misinformed post as a disservice. I don't know how DreamBliss would feel about it. I perceive him overall as an exceptionally patient and understanding personality, so maybe he wouldn't have cared much (at least consciously ).

 

However, I sensed an unsound dynamics developing that I felt inclined to quickly dissolve.

 

- whereas I'm offering them as a different perspective - something that helps to broaden ones awareness. If support means simply agreeing and pandering to everything one says then a forum is not the place to find it - better write a blog - a forum is a space where different perspectives come together.

Of course! If you read my posts, you will see that I actually challenge the OP's thesis of there not being a subconscious. Such debate is fully appropriate as long as it's taking place in an atmosphere of mutual respect.

 

Sometimes the different perspective doesn't quite make it in, so one pokes and prods and finds holes in the current perspective just to get the mind a little more flexible - a little more capable of seeing a different way.

Being offered a different perspective is like going with someone to a sunglass shop - try on a different pair and see how that fits.

If there's no subconscious, then why on earth would you be hurt by seeing the world through different lenses?! Why on earth would you refuse to take off your current specs and cling to them like it somehow is part of your identity (especially if there's no subconscious!) DB happily called me 'a fool' for pursuing spiritual goals in a physical universe (actually that's not exactly correct) - I didn't find it offensive or get hurt by it. In fact I kind of enjoy some light teasing. Why would he (or rather weirdly - you - on his behalf) be hurt by me laying out the context around the matter - that he's middle aged, with no job and living with relatives.

I hope that it became clear meanwhile that what offended me was three members agreeing on what turned into an attack ad hominem, on a personal friend of mine, and on a thread I am contributing to. I did similar things on forums for others before, and on a few occasions personally appreciated other members' support.

 

Do you see how this lifestyle could create a certain tint to one's 'sunglasses'/perspective?

Anyway. DB - if you were hurt by my comments, I appologise - that was not my intention. Michael Steinback - well done for standing up for your friend, but I assure you I'm only attacking ideas/thoughts/perspectives, not people - defend perspectives if you must or maybe don't defend but discuss instead.

Always happy to do just that whenever I can.

 

I hope that you understand my position now and appreciate your clarification. We can leave it at that, as far as I am concerned.

 

Michael

[Marblehead]

A cheap shot!

 

Do you know why I might say something like 'I don't need a brain'?

 

Do you know how anyone could say something so outrageous?

Well, you offered me an opening.  What less would you have expected from me?

[Stosh]

A cheap shot!

 

Do you know why I might say something like 'I don't need a brain'?

 

Do you know how anyone could say something so outrageous?

I thought he was giving you a left handed compliment , that you appear to use your brain to good advantage and do not say stupid stuff, but I don't know why you would say something like it, other than it being an exaggeration of a basic point that we may be our own worst enemy ,, or something like that.

Edited March 19, 2015 by Stosh

[the1gza]

This thread might be suffering from being alive for too long? 

[DreamBliss]

For the record others tell us that we have this gray, wrinkled thing in our skulls (that goes well with fava beans) and that this is referred to as our brain, furthermore some of the same stuff exists in our heart and stomach.
 
Most of us have never pulled our brain out to see that it is actually there or not, or seen any other person's brain, and for the few of us that may be able to actually see a brain, living or otherwise, only a few of them would actually be able to verify anything others have said about it.
 
So really whether we have a brain or not is just a collectively held belief. That is the level at which it exists, at least until you put your hands around one or hook it up to a monitor and study what it does.
 
In the same manner we collectively believe in this thing called a mind. Ultimately it seems to be some energetic component to our brain, like the soul or our Higher Self is an energetic component to our body. Everybody seems to have their own idea a to what this mind thing is.
 
As far as I am concerned the brain and the mind are two separate things. The physical body in its entirety is manifested energy from Source, focused here in the physical world of form and time. Consciousness is that focus, and can, as I said, be projected anywhere.
 
This is all the great game, or dance, or play, whatever name you want to give it. Source playing parts, one of those parts is my physical form, you are its other roles, a bug on the ceiling is still another. We are all separate yet one.
 
My guess is that mind is our unique access to the One Mind of Source. Presumably Source is sentient, and if it is sentient, it thinks, and as it has no brain in its original form, it must have a mind, so I would say that you can definitely have a mind but no brain.
 
But if you have a mind and no brain you can't be physically focused. To be physically focused, to have a physical form, you must have a brain. The brain is a necessary element for the energetic form to become physical. Mind interfaces with the physical world through the brain, Source interfaces with the physical world through the body.

It doesn't have to be complicated, and is only as complicated as we choose to make it.

Edited March 19, 2015 by DreamBliss

[Marblehead]

This thread might be suffering from being alive for too long? 

Perhaps you are right.  I'll sleep on it.

[Michael Sternbach]

There are indeed cases known of people with virtually no brain, yet with normal or even above average mental abilities.

 

http://www.rense.com/general63/brain.htm

 

So: Of course it's possible to have a mind but no brain! That's what I call a "no brainer."

Edited March 20, 2015 by Michael Sternbach

[DreamBliss]

DB happily called me 'a fool' for pursuing spiritual goals in a physical universe (actually that's not exactly correct) - I didn't find it offensive or get hurt by it. In fact I kind of enjoy some light teasing. Why would he (or rather weirdly - you - on his behalf) be hurt by me laying out the context around the matter - that he's middle aged, with no job and living with relatives. Do you see how this lifestyle could create a certain tint to one's 'sunglasses'/perspective?

 

Anyway. DB - if you were hurt by my comments, I appologise - that was not my intention. Michael Steinback - well done for standing up for your friend, but I assure you I'm only attacking ideas/thoughts/perspectives, not people - defend perspectives if you must or maybe don't defend but discuss instead.

 

I am not aware of calling any specific person a fool, much less doing so happily. If I have done so, I am deeply and truly sorry. In fact, if I have ever singled out and attacked anyone at these forums, I apologize.

 

When I came back here yesterday to read this thread, and saw what Nungali had posted, I wrote something I nearly posted, but, when I was done, I put it into a new bleedings document. That is where I get angry, cry, rant and rave.

 

I am not sure what I want to say about this, or if I even know why I didn't post it. I guess maybe it didn't seem mature? It would only strengthen this image that was projected onto me of being a child? But that's not quite it, or totally it, either.

 

The truth remains, I can not be hurt or offended unless I choose to be. Someone could come over and kick the living tar out of me, and that would obviously hurt my physical body, but it its up to me to perceive the beating as bad or good, negative or positive, desirable or undesirable.

 

So it is up to me to decide if I will take offense here or not, if I will allow myself to play the role of victim, of one attacked or offended. As it is up to me to decide if I will complain about my life experience or do something about it. I can empower myself or not, the choice is always mine.

 

I was not aware that I had been complaining in here, whining about my circumstances, or doing anything remotely like that. I thought I had been clear as to how I felt about what I perceived to be my circumstances. But I didn't think I was bitching and moaning about things.

 

I did get on my high horse though with the whole lemming rock analogy. I did display an attitude of superiority there or something. I don't know I intended it like that. I think I intended it more like I am taking a stand. More like this is what I choose to do, you guys can do whatever the hell you want. But I guess even that is a sort of, "I'm better than you are! Nyah! Nyah!" attitude. I will work on that.

 

Micheal, thank you for standing up for me. I am happy to know that I have someone out there, in the world, who cares enough to do something like that. I really and truly appreciate it!

 

But I would prefer that nobody join in on this "Chain-of-Pain." I would prefer that everyone be free of all chains, from beliefs, religion, self and society. When we come in valiantly to someone's rescue, we enforce the idea that someone needs rescuing, and reinforce the victim role.

 

There is nothing at all anyone can say here that can have even the remotest effect on me unless I allow it to. Nothing. Not one word, one sentence, one paragraph. I always have the choice, and I claim that choice, to decide how I feel about what others are "saying" here, how I will respond, if at all, whether or not it hurts or offends me, etc.

 

In short I am in control. I don't have to be in control and don't seek to be in control. This is just the natural state that is mine by default, and it is the same for everyone. I am in control, I decide who will have power over me, I assign it, and everyone else can do the same. The sooner the collective human race realizes this, the quicker we will be rid of conflict!

Edited March 19, 2015 by DreamBliss

[Stosh]

There are indeed cases known of people with virtually no brain, yet normal or even above average mental abilities.

 

http://www.rense.com/general63/brain.htm

 

So: Of course it's possible to have a mind but no brain! That's what I call a "no brainer."

I went ahead and read the disclaimer , seems they leave it to the audience to decide whether the info presented is valid,, which I don't consider it to be.