Throwing Out The Subconscious or Unconscious Mind

[Nungali]

That sounds interesting. References?

 

At the end of a long answer to this ... the whole screen went grey over and I couldnt post it.  

 

So I am not going to write it all out again

 

Look up this and refs related 

 

http://ultraculture.org/blog/2013/06/13/the-8-circuits-of-reality/

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eight-circuit_model_of_consciousness

 

The therapy was done in jails with hard core 'unreformable'  long term prisoners.  I dont have the research refs. It was in one of R A Wilsons books ; 'Prometheus Rising' or 'Quantum Psychology', or maybe in this 

 

 

I can outline the therapeutic practice for you if you like (but not here, a bit too OT  ... in a thread that denies the unconsconscious and programming - PM me if interested )

[Stosh]

What did I write Nungali, that you dislike so much ?

I didnt think I was saying anything very abrasive today.

[Nungali]

No you didnt.  I think you missed a key word that I wrote when I used you (purely) as an example ;

 

"  if   I dont like what Stosh wrote " . 

 

Sorry ... I should have written  ' if   I dont like what someone wrote '          (I was actually going to use Freeform as an example as I clicked 'like' on his post ... but I forgot his name and was too lazy to go back a page ) 

[freeform]

It's rare to experience complete darkness... There's usually some light pollution, or some moonlight or an LED somewhere... But yesterday I entered a cave and it was completely dark. I found it somewhat frightening and somewhat exhilarating. I went in and did a few turns and had no idea where I was - which direction I was facing...

 

When I switched on my torch ('flashlight' for most of you) - then I could see - but I could only see the parts that the light beam illuminated. I wonder - if I denied the existence of anything outside of the illuminated circle - would this empower me or disempower me?

 

It would certainly make my world smaller. And that in itself would make life easier... If I saw a stalagmite that looked scary, I could just move the light beam and focus it somewhere else.

 

Of course if I kept bumping into things unseen, or stepping into puddles or potholes it'd be a bit uncomfortable - but I could just ignore all that and keep my attention on whatever the beam of light is illuminating - then the brightness would help to distract me from my wet foot and my grazed forhead.

 

Is this a world I'd like to live in? I wonder how long I could do that for...

Edited March 21, 2015 by freeform

[Marblehead]

No you didnt.  I think you missed a key word that I wrote when I used you (purely) as an example ;

 

"  if   I dont like what Stosh wrote " . 

 

Sorry ... I should have written  ' if   I dont like what Marblehead wrote '          (I was actually going to use Freeform as an example as I clicked 'like' on his post ... but I forgot his name and was too lazy to go back a page ) 

There.  Now that looks so much better.  Many don't like what I write.

[Marblehead]

Is this a world I'd like to live in? I wonder how long I could do that for...

Damn!  Freeform got lost in Plato's cave!!!

[DreamBliss]

It sounds more like he's in Schrodingers Box.

 

Is he alive or dead? Or both?

[DreamBliss]

It's rare to experience complete darkness... There's usually some light pollution, or some moonlight or an LED somewhere... But yesterday I entered a cave and it was completely dark. I found it somewhat frightening and somewhat exhilarating. I went in and did a few turns and had no idea where I was - which direction I was facing...

 

When I switched on my torch ('flashlight' for most of you) - then I could see - but I could only see the parts that the light beam illuminated. I wonder - if I denied the existence of anything outside of the illuminated circle - would this empower me or disempower me?

 

It would certainly make my world smaller. And that in itself would make life easier... If I saw a stalagmite that looked scary, I could just move the light beam and focus it somewhere else.

 

Of course if I kept bumping into things unseen, or stepping into puddles or potholes it'd be a bit uncomfortable - but I could just ignore all that and keep my attention on whatever the beam of light is illuminating - then the brightness would help to distract me from my wet foot and my grazed forhead.

 

Is this a world I'd like to live in? I wonder how long I could do that for...

 

One problem with this analogy... To enter the cave you had to be outside first. So you already know the outside exists. You can prove it simply by stepping back outside.

 

So, were I in your shoes, I could not, and would not, claim there is no outside because its right there, outside the cave. In this case denial is not empowering.

Edited March 21, 2015 by DreamBliss

[freeform]

Imagine - for this thought experiment - that you were born in the cave... with a torch in your hand...

[4bsolute]

Imagine - for this thought experiment - that you were born in the cave... with a torch in your hand...

 

Imagination is utilizing your subconscious mind.

 

To transcend the subconscious mind, one goes in meditation down from the conscious waking mind (behind eyes) down through the throat, which holds the subconscious and dreaming mind into the heart space. Through this one enters "nothingness" and with enough letting go (not focus) one discovers it's first light, which is revered to one's soul. This state then lets one Consciously bring one's soul up into one's conscious waking mind and create from this place, without further having the filter of the subconscious mind active.

 

The subconscious mind with the uncontrolled thought pattern is usually the barrier for all practitioners, for one wants to control these thought structures. And so the waking mind gets active again and you go actually up into your head again instead of going down into your chest. Reason: identification.

 

The longer one remains in pure consciousness and not utilizes (neither changes, simply lets it be) the subconscious, the more it gets purified to an extend where it will dissolve.

 

People call this "not thinking" - but this alone does not transcend the subconscious mind. It might automatically over a very long time, but that requires to discard and not pay attention to Any thought that pops up Including thinking consciously. Transcending does entering pure consciousness and bringing this light up in ones waking mind (enlightenment).

 

One can call this mastery of the human state. And this is just the beginning.

 

I would love to tell you that I am there, I am surely in one of my future Selves, but as you can see this Self is not yet merged with it. I am researching my subsconious mind at the moment. That includes emotional mastery and the one of thought.

 

With this information given here I am forwarding Lincoln Gergar's research on the Self, which seems the most reasonable for my own approach.

Edited March 21, 2015 by 4bsolute

[DreamBliss]

Imagine - for this thought experiment - that you were born in the cave... with a torch in your hand...

 

In that case, I would certainly explore the cave, but what is outside the cave has no interest to me as I am not aware of it. As far as I am concerned, it does not exist. Also what is outside the cave has no effect on me while I am inside the cave.

 

For you, using this example, you know the outside exists, and your point depends on that. However the person in your illustration knows only about the inside of the cave, and the fact they don't believe in anything outside of it has no detrimental effect.

 

Once they stumble outside they will change their beliefs:

Edited March 21, 2015 by DreamBliss

[DreamBliss]

Imagination is utilizing your subconscious mind..

 

I must nitpick here... For me imagination is conscious visualization. It has nothing at all to do with the subconscious or unconscious mind.

[Nungali]

There.  Now that looks so much better.  Many don't like what I write.

 

And some get very upset in themselves about what I write about. 

 

But I think you just like to see your name in print         ( I had a Jewish friend that used to like watching the old 10 commandments movie ... he liked to hear his name mentioned all the time    )

[Nungali]

It sounds more like he's in Schrodingers Box.

 

 

No, you missed the whole point.  It sounds like an objective experience ...  to you.  But it isnt, the cat box is an experiment in the process of the 'outside' objective observer.

 

What Feeform writes about is a subjective experience.

 

One is outside the box, the other inside the cave.

 

Can you see how this interesting misconception (on your part)  reflects the problem you have got yourself into here philosophically ? 

[Nungali]

One problem with this analogy... To enter the cave you had to be outside first. So you already know the outside exists. You can prove it simply by stepping back outside.

 

So, were I in your shoes, I could not, and would not, claim there is no outside because its right there, outside the cave. In this case denial is not empowering.

 

No, you missed the point.

 

You have to follow the analogy to understand it .... the setting is in a cave ... 

 

you did it again!   you didnt like the analogy of the cave unconscious ... so you just stepped back outside ....

 

caves exist , I admit that ... but they just dont exist for me as I dont like them. 

 

Yes, you can avoid caves ... but you can not avoid your own unconscious mind . 

[Nungali]

 

In that case, I would certainly explore the cave, but what is outside the cave has no interest to me as I am not aware of it. As far as I am concerned, it does not exist. Also what is outside the cave has no effect on me while I am inside the cave.

 

For you, using this example, you know the outside exists, and your point depends on that. However the person in your illustration knows only about the inside of the cave, and the fact they don't believe in anything outside of it has no detrimental effect.

 

 

 

 

I think you missed the point of the analogy.

 

The cave is your 'consciousness'  the dark things are the 'unconscious' the torch is awareness.  Things in the mind become illumined by awareness of them and focus on them.

 

The state of 'happiness' being focused on what the beam reveals is the person who denies their unconscious

 

The state of the unseen all round that is not in the beam of light of awareness is the unconscious content of the mind. 

 

... Immediately you want to escape the analogy by invoking the outside world beyond the cave by focusing on 'a claim that there was no outside' in the first place ... it was a twist, by you, on the statement about what was outside the circle of light within the cave and  you manipulated the idea to outside of the cave   .... oh dear! 

 

Can you see how your unconscious subtly manipulated you to do that ?  Or was it a conscious subversion of the philosophical point in discussion .... if so you cheated !  If not , your unconscious manipulated you.

Edited March 22, 2015 by Nungali

[Nungali]

I must nitpick here... For me imagination is conscious visualization. It has nothing at all to do with the subconscious or unconscious mind.

 

 

Is dreaming the conscious visualisation of the imagination ? ? ?    Hmmmmm ? 

 

Most imaginative processes go on in the unconscious, its just their results that seem to be given to the conscious mind.

 

Try this .... think of one thing for a while. Consciously ... dont waver or change the subject matter.

 

How long did you last, what arose that was not related to the one thing ... if you were consciously focused on that one thing in conscious visualisation ...  from where did the other thoughts , images, things that you imagined,  arise from ? 

 

 

And I still wanna know where your eye and hair colour come from if you cannot be and will not be programmed  ... you haven' t answered that yet .  

Edited March 22, 2015 by Nungali

[DreamBliss]

I think you missed the point of the analogy.

No, you missed the point.

No, you missed the whole point.

 

Of course I missed the point! I wasn't aiming at it!

 

I consciously chose to not play the game 4bsolute started here.

 

So, I hit exactly what I was aiming at!

Edited March 22, 2015 by DreamBliss

[Nungali]

Is dreaming the conscious visualisation of your imagination ?  

Edited March 22, 2015 by Nungali

[Nungali]

 

 

I consciously chose to not play the game 4bsolute started here.

 

 

 

Then why did you respond  to 4bsolute's post with  a quote and this response : 

 

" I must nitpick here.."    and   "  For me imagination is conscious visualization."

 

hence the above question 

Edited March 22, 2015 by Nungali

[DreamBliss]

I was referring to his/her use of the cave example. I had a pretty good idea where they were trying to go with that, so I put up the "Dead End" sign.

 

Dreaming is not imagination, and it can be a conscious experience. That is what Lucid Dreaming is all about. Becoming  conscious  in your dreams, aware that you are dreaming. 

 

I'll walk through the maze of the rest of your questions later, consciously.

[4bsolute]

Is dreaming the conscious visualisation of your imagination ?  

 

 

I was referring to his/her use of the cave example. I had a pretty good idea where they were trying to go with that, so I put up the "Dead End" sign.

 

Dreaming is not imagination, and it can be a conscious experience. That is what Lucid Dreaming is all about. Becoming  conscious  in your dreams, aware that you are dreaming. 

 

I'll walk through the maze of the rest of your questions later, consciously.

 

Dreaming/dreams are constructed of the subconscious mind held in your throat space. Lucid dreaming is playing in this space, like a child in a sandbox. This is not reality. Reality starts when you enter your first subtle body and perceive more of your total Self.

Edited March 22, 2015 by 4bsolute

[freeform]

Yes I'm afraid you missed my point, and missed out on seeing a new perspective. The analogy was about the darkness of the cave, and the beam of light being conscious awareness... Does anything exist outside of what the beam of light lands on? 

 

I'm afraid this conversation has reached it's limit. You seem to be asking people whether they believe the subconscious exists or not - or at least what we think about your idea of denying its existence... we're trying to show you examples of why you're limiting yourself and you're taking it as an opportunity to try to prove that you're right... It's a game that unfortunately has everyone lose. 

[DreamBliss]

Does anything exist outside of what the beam of light lands on?

 

The light is awareness. The implication is that things may exist outside of awareness. The implication of that implication is that if things exist outside of awareness, then the subconscious mind can exist. The presumption is that since the subconscious mind can exist, it does exist. Also that it makes no difference to me, in the end, if it exists or not, because I am not aware of it.

 

That is not proof of the existence of the subconscious mind. That is only proof of the possibility of its existence. This sword is two-edged. If there is a possibility that the subconscious mind exists, there is also a possibility that it does not. We will never know for sure, because our flashlight can only reveal the parts of the cave its light shines on.

 

Really then it does not matter to us if there is some hidden or hard to access part of our mind, because we are in the cave, not outside, our awareness is limited to the inside of the cave, that is the extant of our world, of what we know, and of that world, of what we know, we can only see little bits of it at a time with our awareness.

 

In fact we can't even really know for sure if we are in a cave or deep in the dark recesses of the ancient dwarven city of Moria, because we can only see so much. We shine our awareness around, revealing bits and pieces, and from that construct what becomes our realty. It is dark and rocky, we must be in a cave! Our world becomes the label, "cave." That is all we know, but because our awareness isn't bright enough, we never have the complete picture.

 

So is it better to switch off the flashlight, let our eyes adjust to the darkness, and stop defining our reality by what the light of our awareness reveals? Stop presuming we know where we are or what the truth is because we can't see it all anyway? Or should we go on some quest to light up this space, so we can finally get the whole picture?

 

I don't know what the better course of action is. But I am not going to start believing in things simply because other people tell me they exist. Until I am able to see this space for myself I am not going to adopt any beliefs about it.

 

I'm afraid this conversation has reached it's limit. You seem to be asking people whether they believe the subconscious exists or not - or at least what we think about your idea of denying its existence... we're trying to show you examples of why you're limiting yourself and you're taking it as an opportunity to try to prove that you're right... It's a game that unfortunately has everyone lose.

 

I see your point.

 

I guess what is going on here is that you (speaking collectively of all who I perceive to be against my decision) are trying to convince me (again in my perception) that the subconscious mind exists.

 

But as far as I can tell none of you have presented any compelling evidence, as to A. What exactly is the benefit of believing in the existence of some aspect of your mind outside consciousness? And B. How exactly do you know the subconscious mind exists? What proof do you have?

 

I guess I feel that since you seem to be disagreeing with my decision, or finding fault with it, or finding it insufficient or limiting, that the burden of proof rests with you as to exactly why your belief in this hidden, hard to access part of the mind is better than my current disbelief in it.

 

In other words, I have not been convinced, despite your very best efforts. But the purpose of this thread has been accomplished. I stated what I was going to do, I got the feedback and various viewpoints I was looking for.

 

So thank you, all of you, for giving me your various perspectives on my decision and this subject! I appreciate all the energy, effort and time that went into your replies.

 

The overall consensus seems to be that the majority of you believe in some aspect of the mind outside consciousness, that you do not find a belief in this to be disempowering, and furthermore, that my chosen disbelief in it is limiting at the least, and self destructive at the most. Also that my disbelief is not empowering at all, and is actually denial. Do I have that about right?

 

I guess that's it from me for now.

Edited March 22, 2015 by DreamBliss

[freeform]

Just a final note to clarify for you.

 

There is no 'truth' - proving the subconscious exists is as silly as proving love exists. It's a case of pragmatism - there is that which you're aware of and there is that which you're not - there's that which you're conscious of, there's is that which is below your conscious awareness. This is a useful distinction - it's pragmatic... Numbers don't really exist, but they're useful distinctions which make many things possible.

 

By identifying with conscious awareness and denying anything but, you're closing off to the universe and saying only the bits that get into my attention are there - everything else is not. You're identifying with whatever the torch light is illuminating, but missing the whole universe around it - including (perhaps most importantly) that there's a light beam in the first place.

 

In a bullfight, from time to time the matador or his helpers will run behind a wooden barrier - this confuses the bull because for him the person simply vanishes... Young babies laugh when you hide your face and reveal it again - because in a similar way the person disappears for them in that moment - and the surprise of it makes them laugh.

 

Yes I think it's silly for you to put yourself in that position - but I don't think its destructive because you're just saying words and getting stuck in your head - in reality you'll carry on behaving as if there is a subconscious and as if there is a face hidden behind someone's hands. So it's all just words.

 

However you seem to want to grow and develop as a person - having a belief that limits you like this (even if it's a farce of a belief) will hold you back. And I've seen that LoA - as it's actually applied by everyone I've talked to is, in fact damaging - in that it not only stops development, but regresses you... It's kind of like seeing a friend join a fundamentalist religious group - but hey it's their choice.

 

Good luck with it all!

Edited March 22, 2015 by freeform