Throwing Out The Subconscious or Unconscious Mind

[Michael Sternbach]

Yes.  I am not the one saying I cant be imprinted .... I came with an imprint, various forces tried to restamp me; some succeeded some didn't .

 

What I am getting at is this:

 

Since your internal emotional and mental conditions as well as your external circumstances can both be seen in your chart (with its transits, directions, etc), to a degree - doesn't this suggest that there is a connection between your inner world and your outer world?

[Stosh]

Doesnt that mean he is connected to a chart?

[Nungali]

What I am getting at is this: Since your internal emotional and mental conditions as well as your external circumstances can both be seen in your chart (with its transits, directions, etc), to a degree - doesn't this suggest that there is a connection between your inner world and your outer world?

 

Yes, it could suggest that.  It could also suggest that inner and outer are the one thing (that way we dont have to postulate a 'medium' of connection    ). 

 

.... your move now ...  

[Marblehead]

I move that Dreambliss gets back into the discussion.

[DreamBliss]

Sigh...

Very well Marblehead. I did sort of promise to wander through the maze of Numbskull's... I mean Nungali's questions. But I am breaking the part of my promise that says I will do so consciously, because damn it, I just don't feel like it!
 

No, you missed the whole point. It sounds like an objective experience ... to you. But it isnt, the cat box is an experiment in the process of the 'outside' objective observer.

What Feeform writes about is a subjective experience.

One is outside the box, the other inside the cave.

Can you see how this interesting misconception (on your part) reflects the problem you have got yourself into here philosophically ?

Nope. You have completely lost me here.
 

I think you missed the point of the analogy.

The cave is your 'consciousness' the dark things are the 'unconscious' the torch is awareness. Things in the mind become illumined by awareness of them and focus on them.

The state of 'happiness' being focused on what the beam reveals is the person who denies their unconscious

The state of the unseen all round that is not in the beam of light of awareness is the unconscious content of the mind.

... Immediately you want to escape the analogy by invoking the outside world beyond the cave by focusing on 'a claim that there was no outside' in the first place ... it was a twist, by you, on the statement about what was outside the circle of light within the cave and you manipulated the idea to outside of the cave .... oh dear!

Can you see how your unconscious subtly manipulated you to do that ? Or was it a conscious subversion of the philosophical point in discussion .... if so you cheated ! If not , your unconscious manipulated you.

I believe it was a conscious subversion of the philo... Blah Blah Blah... Discussion. So, according to you and solely in your perception I am a cheater.

You know, I used to play Halo 2 on the Xbox 360. I got really good at using these special spots in the maps that would propel me to otherwise inaccessible places. They were called superjumps.
 
I have always been someone who enjoys finding their way out of a level. I enjoyed getting out of some of the Half-life 2 maps as well. Others, playing against me, might be tempted to call me a cheater. But I feel no guilt or shame at all.
 
In fact I am proud of the few feats in my life I have been able to accomplish, whether or not I was playing by someone's rule book. I enjoy pushing the boundaries and going beyond what others say I can or should. Fuck borders, limitations, rules and restrictions!

What all that has to do with this thread I have no clue.

Edited March 24, 2015 by DreamBliss

[C T]

I enjoy pushing the boundaries and going beyond what others say I can or should. Fuck borders, limitations, rules and restrictions!

I think 'pushing the boundaries' is just another way of saying 'tapping into the powers of the subconscious'. If the subconscious or unconscious is denied in any manner or on any level, then your assertion makes no sense. 

[Stosh]

Nevermind, its not worth it.

Edited March 24, 2015 by Stosh

[DreamBliss]

I feel the need to add something here. A confession.

 

I forgot something important that I knew. I am sure I am not alone here. We have a realization about something, we make changes accordingly, but then that old way of thinking sneaks up on us. I am fairly certain of what one poster will call that...

 

I got defensive in this thread. In other words, I became resistant, and I know better. Resistance is what kills you when you are fall from a great hight, are stabbed or shot. The practice is to allow shit to pass right through. There I go again, calling it shit, more resistance.

 

You can't have a bias or feelings. The practice is to admit, allow and accept. To be open and receptive. To not critisize or judge. I have done probably a little of each of this in response to everyone, in my perception, trying to convince me that the subconsious mind exists.

 

This is no better than the Christians and the Muslims killing each other over which religion is the Truth. You can not be my enemy unless I apply that label to you, unless I see you as my enemy, perceieve you to be my enemy.

 

A better word would be opposition. I don't think of anyone here as my enemy. But there are those that have opposing points of view, or perhaps points of view that are complimentary which I do not realize yet, blind men feeling different parts of the elephant.

 

Anyhow if I see you as my opposition, then I have resistance, then I give you power over me, and by giving you power over me I reinforce the undesired viewpoint. How in the hell I keep forgetting this I don't know. Again I am fairly certain I know what one poster will say...

 

So no more resistance. Time for admit, allow and accept. Time for openess and receptivity. Time to stop critisizng and judging. You have your viewpoint, I have mine. I don't have to defend my viewpoint, it isn't worth defending anyway. I also don't have to subscribe to yours. From this point on I am non-resistant to your various points of view.

 

I have made my decision, and am free to change it if it proves to be false. I will hold my belief loosely, so that I can let it go if it is no longer worth holding. But the choice to do so, that decison, is mine, and mine alone.

 

Namaste!

Edited March 24, 2015 by DreamBliss

[Nikolai1]

Your blog on Jonathan Livingston seagull is awesome

[Stosh]

O geez! 

[DreamBliss]

Hey, someone said you were pissing and moaning about how everyone was mean to you, I defended you a bit, but Now your post includes cutesy name calling,  I posted to you , a response to your challenge and you just walked on past it. Are you a child? somewhere around ten? 

 

I am deeply sorry that I did not give you the attention you wanted. I will rectify that mistake immediately, and try to find this challenge, to give you a proper response.

 

I appreciate you taking the time to defend me, but it is not necassary. There is nothing here to defend.

 

I presume this is the challenge?

 

Dreambliss , Ok, you want to see subconscious before you believe it exists. Theres lots of indicators, and you can see those. But theres an admission fee.

The fee is posted as follows.

You are required to accept, any manifestation which you did not consciously include, as to have been supplied by your subconscious.

If youre good at visualization, this should be a very short ride.

Do you accept the terms? Or will you consider the fee null and void due to the somewhat circular reasoning that If you became aware of it, it wasnt ever subconscious.

 

You may have a point there. In the teachings of Abraham, if memory serves, we read that much of the things we manifest into our lives are done by default, unconsiously. As I understand it, we think a certain way about certain things over and over again, and at some point we are no longer aware of those thoughts, we are not consious of the thinking that is putting resistance between us and what we wish to manifest.

 

So it certainly seems to prove what the majority of you are saying here. But there is one small problem... When we talk about the subconscious mind we are referring to a hard to access or hidden part of the mind. With what Abraham is talking about it is very easy, by just practicing awareness of our thoughts, to become aware of these ways of thinking and change them.

 

That means these thoughts do not fit the typical model of the subconsious mind, which requires special processes, techniques and tools to access. To my mind that means these ways of thinking are not in some seperate area of the mind, but exist instead inside of consiousness, while being outside of awareness.

 

In other words we are not normally aware of these habbitual ways of thinking. But we are not unconscious of them. I guess that means I disagree with Abraham in this area, but then again, I am not sure what Abraham means by unconscious. I will have to continue my studies.

Edited March 24, 2015 by DreamBliss

[DreamBliss]

Your blog on Jonathan Livingston seagull is awesome

 

Thank you.

[Stosh]

I am deeply sorry that I did not give you the attention you wanted. I will rectify that mistake immediately, and try to find this challenge, to give you a proper response.

 

I appreciate you taking the time to defend me, but it is not necassary. There is nothing here to defend.

Yeah well  you should ! The effeort was on your behalf but you still dont seem to recognize that , clear in the patronizing response. And yes defending you isn't necessary, that was me also sticking my neck out for you in a small way. And yes nothing to defend is correct , since the cause is a lost one. You arent appreciative of what is being offered and extended, you aren't being respecting of the folks who are responding. and The melodramatic , I am not here stuff doesnt apply when the subject is non material in all its content. 

[DreamBliss]

Yeah well  you should ! The effeort was on your behalf but you still dont seem to recognize that , clear in the patronizing response. And yes defending you isn't necessary, that was me also sticking my neck out for you in a small way. And yes nothing to defend is correct , since the cause is a lost one. You arent appreciative of what is being offered and extended, you aren't being respecting of the folks who are responding. and The melodramatic , I am not here stuff doesnt apply when the subject is non material in all its content. 

 

Unfortunately, you caught me at a bad time. I am not very high vibration or spiritual right now. Going through some things and am not acting as well as I feel I should, as well as I generally pratice regularly to act. And yes, I know I am making excuses for myself. Like I said, bad time.

 

I guess when you called me a child and asked if I was 10 I took exception, that is why my repsonse was condenscing and sarcastic. Listen we have to break this chain-of-pain here and stop critising and judging. We're like brothers bickering.

 

I may not agree with much of what has been said, but I do appreciate it. I am grateful and thankful. I received exactly what I asked for. I have no complaints at all.

 

When I tell you that you don't need to defend me or stick your neck out for me I do appreciate the gesture. But I say that for you, not for me. Because if you defend someone or stick your neck out for them with an expectation of gratitude then that is not the right way to serve another. If we serve another, in any capacity, is must be without expectation of any kind. We serve when called, when, in the natural flow of our lives, the opportunity to serve arrives.

 

I am not expressing this very well, I am sorry. But it is to your detriment to do something for someone with an expectation of how they will respond. Better to give your gift and walk away, your reward in the giving, not in their response to it. I hope you can see where I am trying to point you here.

 

Also keep in mind that when you defend the helpless princless you reinforce her helplessness. You reinforce the victim role for her, and the saving, prince charming (or Mario) role for yourself. But she may not be a princess, and you may not be prince charming. Better for each of you to be who you really are, not someone you are not.

 

Nothing I have said here, with the possible exception of my condescending response, was intended to hurt, and I am not even sure that was. More like I was trying to make you aware of what you had said that invoked that response from me.

 

In any case,, as far as I am aware, I have no desire to hurt anyone, or be hurt by anyone. As I may have said elsewhere, I am not a masochist, I do not enjoy giving or receiving pain.

Edited March 24, 2015 by DreamBliss

[Marblehead]

 Fuck borders, limitations, rules and restrictions!

 

 

What all that has to do with this thread I have no clue.

Actually nothing.  But it sounded good when I read it.

[Marblehead]

I feel the need to add something here. A confession.

That is a good post even though I don't 100% agree with your perspective.

[Stosh]

Confession is nothing without atonement. Its just another ploy.

[Marblehead]

Confession is nothing without atonement. Its just another ploy.

Hehehe.  You sure do get critical some times, don't you?

 

He's trying.  You gotta' give him credit for that.

[Stosh]

Hehehe.  You sure do get critical some times, don't you?

 

He's trying.  You gotta' give him credit for that.

Trying to what?  He complained about the harsh responses , then comes back leading off with an insult , says he wants proof of his subconscious , then when he is provided with a way to get it , ignores that, then when called for ignoring it, implies that Its my neediness for attention that he would be satisfying. Its a game of blame , yanking chains. Yeah Im critical of that, If theres anything that gets my goat , its perverting the good and helpful impulses of others into bad ones.   

[Nungali]

Sigh...

 

Very well Marblehead. I did sort of promise to wander through the maze of Numbskull's... I mean Nungali's questions. But I am breaking the part of my promise that says I will do so consciously, because damn it, I just don't feel like it!

 

 

Nope. You have completely lost me here.

 

 

I believe it was a conscious subversion of the philo... Blah Blah Blah... Discussion. So, according to you and solely in your perception I am a cheater.

 

You know, I used to play Halo 2 on the Xbox 360. I got really good at using these special spots in the maps that would propel me to otherwise inaccessible places. They were called superjumps.

 

I have always been someone who enjoys finding their way out of a level. I enjoyed getting out of some of the Half-life 2 maps as well. Others, playing against me, might be tempted to call me a cheater. But I feel no guilt or shame at all.

 

In fact I am proud of the few feats in my life I have been able to accomplish, whether or not I was playing by someone's rule book. I enjoy pushing the boundaries and going beyond what others say I can or should. Fuck borders, limitations, rules and restrictions!

 

What all that has to do with this thread I have no clue.

 

 

I will tell you then what it has to do with the thread.  Consider its subject matter. Now consider that a poster used that cave and spotlight analogy to explain a concept about the topic of this thread. That is what it has to do with it.

 

If you learnt how to hold up your opinions in any sort of 'philosophical debate' from playing computer games .... well, I gues that is the way of the world nowadays , as is pop LoA .   <shrug> 

 

Niumbskull ,  eh ?     

 

Relatively, yes, perhaps !   But it is what is what is inside the skull that is not numb.... its very 'switched on' .     

[Nungali]

 

 

You may have a point there. In the teachings of Abraham, if memory serves, we read that much of the things we manifest into our lives are done by default, unconsiously. As I understand it, we think a certain way about certain things over and over again, and at some point we are no longer aware of those thoughts, we are not consious of the thinking that is putting resistance between us and what we wish to manifest.

 

So it certainly seems to prove what the majority of you are saying here. But there is one small problem... When we talk about the subconscious mind we are referring to a hard to access or hidden part of the mind.

 

yes, that is a good way of putting it.   But lets not forget that the unconscious is in contact with the conscious mind but not in the same way the parts of the conscious mind interact with each other.  Most agree that this language of communication between the unconscious and the conscious is in the form of symbolism and 'impelled action' which may come from an unknown, unaware or mistaken impulse.  So, we can, with awareness, modify the messages and get clearer on their source and motivations.

 

 

With what Abraham is talking about it is very easy, by just practicing awareness of our thoughts, to become aware of these ways of thinking and change them.

 

 

To me, this is ' modify the messages and get clearer on their source and motivations.'  Its still working in the conscious realm. Abraham seems to be saying, that 'unseen' energy that can disrupt this process is in the unconscious.  The change is working on the level of the thoughts that have arisen in the consciousness . 

 

 

 

That means these thoughts do not fit the typical model of the subconsious mind, which requires special processes, techniques and tools to access. To my mind that means these ways of thinking are not in some seperate area of the mind, but exist instead inside of consiousness, while being outside of awareness.

 

In a way that is right;  thats why I said the iceberg image was 'wrong'  'mind' isnt divided up like that.

 

The same way we can say a Kabbalistic Tree of Life diagram isnt really the correct model;

 

 

It is a handy 2-D diagram to explain some concepts .... all those spheres are 'happening at once' , some versions show the map as  a spherical model - and indeed, the Tree of Life may have evolved from this concept;

 

 

 

 

In other words we are not normally aware of these habbitual ways of thinking. But we are not unconscious of them. I guess that means I disagree with Abraham in this area, but then again, I am not sure what Abraham means by unconscious. I will have to continue my studies.

 

Maybe he just means that the unconscious has a component  where 'habitual ways of thinking ' (that influence our behaviour) can be out of our awareness - we are not aware of them?  Hence some of our actions too are unaware and unregulated by our unconscious. 

 

Maybe this is case of ... not  "I dont believe in the same type of God you do believe in either."  

 

But ;  "I do not believe that I have an unconscious that functions in a way that I previously thought it did." ? 

[Stosh]

yes, that is a good way of putting it.   But lets not forget that the unconscious is in contact with the conscious mind but not in the same way the parts of the conscious mind interact with each other.  Most agree that this language of communication between the unconscious and the conscious is in the form of symbolism and 'impelled action' which may come from an unknown, unaware or mistaken impulse.  So, we can, with awareness, modify the messages and get clearer on their source and motivations.

 

 

 

 

To me, this is ' modify the messages and get clearer on their source and motivations.'  Its still working in the conscious realm. Abraham seems to be saying, that 'unseen' energy that can disrupt this process is in the unconscious.  The change is working on the level of the thoughts that have arisen in the consciousness . 

 

 

 

 

In a way that is right;  thats why I said the iceberg image was 'wrong'  'mind' isnt divided up like that.

 

The same way we can say a Kabbalistic Tree of Life diagram isnt really the correct model;

 

 

It is a handy 2-D diagram to explain some concepts .... all those spheres are 'happening at once' , some versions show the map as  a spherical model - and indeed, the Tree of Life may have evolved from this concept;

 

 

 

 

 

Maybe he just means that the unconscious has a component  where 'habitual ways of thinking ' (that influence our behaviour) can be out of our awareness - we are not aware of them?  Hence some of our actions too are unaware and unregulated by our unconscious. 

 

Maybe this is case of ... not  "I dont believe in the same type of God you do believe in either."  

 

But ;  "I do not believe that I have an unconscious that functions in a way that I previously thought it did." ? 

Nah, Nungali, the paradigm is much simpler , Its that everyone else is confused and a sucker because they have subconscious which they dont understand, See If you didnt have that,  you too would be able to consciously control what everyone else was doing-they would be puppets. So if Mom wanted you to stop behaving badly youd just know to tell her you were going to confess something - which she wants to think would be legit , and so she would fall for it by default , and you could secretly think she was a fool.

Its not really about anything metaphysical. 

[Nungali]

Also keep in mind that when you defend the helpless princless you reinforce her helplessness. You reinforce the victim role for her, and the saving, prince charming (or Mario) role for yourself. But she may not be a princess, and you may not be prince charming. Better for each of you to be who you really are, not someone you are not.

 

Dream bliss ... you just described a process of the unconscious, selecting an archetype and delivering to the consciousness and awareness as something that should be played out ... even though the person may not be that thing.

 

be who you are, not try to act like the implanted , unconscious archetype that is sending messages to the unconscious . 

 

[ It is probably a moot point, as the original idea here ( post #1) was not actually to deny the faculty existed, but that you had thrown it out, by a conscious act of thought or will.  ... but I think you are starting to realise that some of your reposes here ... are still coming from that place.   Yes, of course they will arise more when we are tired, stressed, 'not in a good space'.

 

That's one of the dynamics ... some practices even invoke and push that state, so things will arise to consciousness, so we can begin to deal with them.  Confrontation ( training, dialogue, examination, psycho-analysis, breath work,  etc.  causes us to draw on our resources and expose or strengthen them - for good or ill.  Success is not assured for every person. 

[Nungali]

Trying to what?  He complained about the harsh responses , then comes back leading off with an insult , says he wants proof of his subconscious , then when he is provided with a way to get it , ignores that, then when called for ignoring it, implies that Its my neediness for attention that he would be satisfying. Its a game of blame , yanking chains. Yeah Im critical of that, If theres anything that gets my goat , its perverting the good and helpful impulses of others into bad ones.   

 

Okay, lets look at this (but I will leave dream bliss out of it).

 

The behaviour you just described is common in many of the pop New Age set. I have to deal with all the time ... including an hours long talk yesterday with someone who is a defendant against court case bought by a company I am a director of.

 

he eventually left thanking me and happy although somewhat 'stalled' in the tactical aim of his visit. 

 

There is a whole range of 'platitudes' and half baked philosophies that many of these people come up with to try to justify their behaviours with a super-conscious ideology that shallowly masks a mass of actions formed from impulses in the lower nature.

 

But they cant see it.

 

For years I have seen it , years and years.   I put on a dozen alternative festivals and did the real organisation and sorting out for it to happen ; I have worked on collecting the money or tickets at the gate, liaising between council health inspectors and required regulations for a hippy food stall !, parking etc etc.

 

I have heard the lot from " Pay to get in ?  Man we all own everything anyway." ....   'You are projecting poverty consciousness on me .... are you a capitalist ?   No, the food is pure and uncontaminated because I chanted Hare Krishna over it. 

 

And now some people with a pop LOA (I am talking about the rich people in the dvd that wanted more jewels  and people that want to emulate this behaviour ... and pay in millions of dollars to get it ) 

 

Of course this is a human dynamic, it just isnt new agers  (and there are some great ones of course ;  " Here is my entry fee for me and 4 kids { single dad } ... I know kids are free but its my fee plus a small donation. Now, after I get settled in and camp set up, what work can I do to help get this all happening ?" ....      ) ... Its just the way that a supposed higher consciousness and spirituality and 'philosoph' is used to mask this sort of behaviour that gets my 

 

 

 

 

 

In a way ... its a type of unconscious behaviour ... unless its deliberate ... sometimes it is , as I noticed that after some reasonable discussion they will come around ...

 

" Yeah ... that makes sense ... look, I am not actually broke, I will pay the entry fee."

 

"  Yeah ... yuo tried to 'pull one over on me then didnt you?"

 

" ....  <sheepish grin>  "

 

There you have it folks ... the different between a sheep and a goat.

 

And not that some here may not have already detected ...  but goats  do have a big part of their skull that is numb !

 

 

 

(Note:  I dont think Dream bliss is one of these deliberate scammers, he has just been conditioned by some of their beliefs - he appears to have underlying good intentions. I think he has the potential to navigate through it if he perseveres . )

Edited March 24, 2015 by Nungali

[Stosh]

Ok, we shall see, I will proceed from your more generous assessment and just let it settle. I am thinking I am going to be saying I told you so , though.