Throwing Out The Subconscious or Unconscious Mind

[C T]

LoA? You bet. For every dollar the ordinary working person earns in big corpos., his or her CEO earns 296. No wonder its so hip to LoA. 

[DreamBliss]

Stosh

 

You are asking me for atonement to go along with my confession. Very well, how shall I atone? Before you reply, consider that in requiring any action from me, you are, in effect, attempting to control my behavior. Why would you want to do this? Because somewhere, deep down inside (call it the subconsious mind if you wish) you believe that you will be happy if I both confess and atone.

 

For all the collective critisms of LoA posted here there is one thing I am confident they have right. That our happiness be found outside of our circumstances. If your happiness depends on the actions of others, you will never be truly happy. You will be constantly seeking to control your circumstances or others to make your life experience more desirable to you. I think that is an even worse way to go about finding happiness than LoA.

 

Find your happiness independant of your control or the actions of others. Stop chasing fool's gold and make room for the real thing, true joy, found only in being who you are, not in how you think you should be, not how others tell you to be. In being yourself allow your purpose to unfold. That is where true freedom and true happiness lay.

Edited March 25, 2015 by DreamBliss

[DreamBliss]

Everyone Else, Primarily Nungali

I can not speak from any experience, as you seem to be saying you have. But I think that lumping all LoA and "New Age" teachers into one group is like calling all Muslims Jihadist's. Do I have the right word there? Very soon you will go out into the world, and every time you see someone with darker skin carrying a heavy backpack you will be wondering of they are carrying a bomb. I am sure you are intelligent enough to see the issue here.

Likewise you can not assume that all LoA teachers, and all "New Age" teachers, are out to out their hands down your pants, figuratively or literally. Anymore than you can assume all Catholic priests assault boys and all North Koreans are communists.

 

You already know that in every belief system, every single one, there are frauds and those who take advantage of others. You will find them even in Buddhist temples and masquerading as Yogi's in India. But you also must know that in every belief system, every single one, there are those who are genuine and pure, motivated by love.

It is probably a good idea to be very careful with the criticizing, judging and labeling. Because sooner or later you will not be able to see beyond the criticism, judgment or labels. Your perception is not clear, your mind is not open, you are not receptive, which means that you are ultimately resistant. Which, as I have explained before, only gives power to that which you are resisting. When you can see things clearly, without criticism, judgment or labels, your perception will be clear, and you can be non-resistant.

To make this more clear... Your belief in the subconscious mind, and your disbelief in LoA teachings, appears to matters far too much to you, and that is only to your detriment, of which I am sure you are fully aware. You can fight me (and others like me) trading blow for blow, or you can use my energy against me and kick my ass. The choice is yours.

Edited March 25, 2015 by DreamBliss

[Marblehead]

Well Dreambliss, it seems your subconscious is still alive and well.  That's good, really.

 

I think that perhaps a better goal than throwing out the subconscious, would be to get your life in a state whereby your subconscious no longer sends your conscious mind thoughts that you don't like.

 

(That's where inner peace will be found.)

[Michael Sternbach]

Yes, it could suggest that.  It could also suggest that inner and outer are the one thing (that way we dont have to postulate a 'medium' of connection    ). 

 

.... your move now ...  

 

Avec plaisir, Monsieur.

 

Regardless how we model the relationship between internal and external reality: If the planets manifest themselves as both  psychological functioning (thoughts and emotions) and external events, it is reasonable to assume that the latter reflect the former, because - as you know - Creation ever proceeds from the higher levels (spiritual, mental and emotional) to the lower level (physical).

 

Now, if you agree that we do have whatever degree of freedom in choosing how we think, it becomes clear that the thoughts we choose would influence our emotions as well as (seemingly) external events.

Edited March 25, 2015 by Michael Sternbach

[Stosh]

There's plenty of evidence that the tail does indeed wag the dog. Rationalizing for example. Its well known in sales. 

If the planets affect ones mind, that would be the physical affecting the mental.

If the creative act of the mind results in action, the relationship  is of the mental influencing the physical. 

While I am not denying  things affect one another, your example of planetary influence appears contrary to your conclusion. 

Which would ,ironically, be an example of the heart ruling the mind. Case in point.

Edited March 25, 2015 by Stosh

[Marblehead]

I hope you guys don't get lost in space while travelling around all those planets.

[Michael Sternbach]

There's plenty of evidence that the tail does indeed wag the dog. Rationalizing for example. Its well known in sales. 

If the planets affect ones mind, that would be the physical affecting the mental.

If the creative act of the mind results in action, the relationship  is of the mental influencing the physical. 

While I am not denying  things affect one another, your example of planetary influence appears contrary to your conclusion. 

Which would ,ironically, be an example of the heart ruling the mind. Case in point.

 

In the occult view, a planet is not primarily seen as something physical. It does have a physical body as we know today, but what is influencing Earth and everything on it is its Soul.

 

The Souls of the planets in unison form what is called the World Soul or Anima mundi in the occult view. The Anima mundi determines, to a degree, what is happening in humans and on Earth, yet Free Will has a say regarding how it wants to deal with and manifest her energies on the physical plane.

Edited March 25, 2015 by Michael Sternbach

[Michael Sternbach]

I hope you guys don't get lost in space while travelling around all those planets.

 

Where I would be meeting you and Nungali.

[Stosh]

In the occult view, a planet is not primarily seen as something physical. It does have a physical body as we know today, but what is influencing Earth and everything on it is its Soul.

 

The Souls of the planets in unison form what is called the World Soul or Anima mundi in the occult view. The Anima mundi determines, to a degree, what is happening in humans and on Earth, yet Free Will has a say regarding how it wants to deal with and manifest her energies on the physical plane.

Well Ive never heard of that , so Ill stand down.

[Nungali]

Everyone Else, Primarily Nungali

 

I can not speak from any experience, as you seem to be saying you have. But I think that lumping all LoA and "New Age" teachers into one group is like calling all Muslims Jihadist's. Do I have the right word there? Very soon you will go out into the world, and every time you see someone with darker skin carrying a heavy backpack you will be wondering of they are carrying a bomb. I am sure you are intelligent enough to see the issue here.

 

 

I am curious then from where you speak , if it is not from experience ! 

 

I try to select my words carefully at times ... thats why I used the term 'pop LoA' ... also I defined other concepts as accurately or in ' ...' .

 

If you read what I wrote carefully, or care to comment me by quoting, instead of summarising what you thought I wrote ... then it might be clearer and get a better answer. 

 

yes I do have a lot of experience ...way far enough to know that the power of thoughts are relevant to a material state and manifestation and to relaise anyone who thinks this isnt a retard ... or that every Muslim is a Jihardist  .  

 

 

Likewise you can not assume that all LoA teachers, and all "New Age" teachers, are out to out their hands down your pants, figuratively or literally. Anymore than you can assume all Catholic priests assault boys and all North Koreans are communists.

 

Ditto .... but the issue there is, the bad ones get away with it because of the blind faith and trust folowers gave to the good ones ( or, actually, given to any one in the position of clergy or 'spiritual  leader' in their group ) .  They give trust and hope as BOTH offer something the other needs and wants ... and has an issue about 'not getting' .... money or 'everlasting immortal life'. 

 

 

You already know that in every belief system, every single one, there are frauds and those who take advantage of others. You will find them even in Buddhist temples and masquerading as Yogi's in India. But you also must know that in every belief system, every single one, there are those who are genuine and pure, motivated by love.

 

yes I do know that, and you know I know that as I just wrote it in a post above. 

 

 

 

 

It is probably a good idea to be very careful with the criticizing, judging and labeling. Because sooner or later you will not be able to see beyond the criticism, judgment or labels. Your perception is not clear, your mind is not open, you are not receptive, which means that you are ultimately resistant. Which, as I have explained before, only gives power to that which you are resisting. When you can see things clearly, without criticism, judgment or labels, your perception will be clear, and you can be non-resistant.

 

Yes, I know that too .... you seemed to have missed the crux I posted earlier ... not overall against the principle of mind directing manifestation , just the pop LoA brand that doesnt consider the aspects of the rest of the elemental make up;

 

Fire water air earth :  inspiration, feeling assessment, planing- models - logistic - reason , putting into action with physical energy.  Also in that order.  I think any 'spiritual system' realises the folly of putting the  'base mind'  at the top of the pyramid ?  

 

 

 

 

To make this more clear... Your belief in the subconscious mind, and your disbelief in LoA teachings, appears to matters far too much to you, and that is only to your detriment, of which I am sure you are fully aware. You can fight me (and others like me) trading blow for blow, or you can use my energy against me and kick my ass. The choice is yours.

 

No, you have that a bit wrong .... you put your own energy against yourself by 'throwing out' and 'denying' an essential component of your 'spirit' and soul.  You have been kicking your own arse all the way through most of this. Some have tried to point that out to you. But you argued and denied ( quiet weakly and illogically I might add ) ... but you have just seen it as me kicking your arse, when what I have been doing is carving open your 'logic' for you to look at. That could be seen as 'using your own energy against you' - but it isnt.

 

It is using your own energy ... for  you.  

 

As you say ...  it is actually you that decides ... whether it is a help or a hindrance  or not ....   but to decide that clearer, you might need to get away from your programmed emotional responses that came up in response to my forthright and 'gruff ' nature.  

 

 

 

[Nungali]

Avec plaisir, Monsieur.

 

Regardless how we model the relationship between internal and external reality: If the planets manifest themselves as both  psychological functioning (thoughts and emotions) and external events, it is reasonable to assume that the latter reflect the former, because - as you know - Creation ever proceeds from the higher levels (spiritual, mental and emotional) to the lower level (physical).

 

Of course ; spirit - fire - water - air - earth. 

 

Now, if you agree that we do have whatever degree of freedom in choosing how we think, it becomes clear that the thoughts we choose would influence our emotions as well as (seemingly) external events.

 

yes .... and ? 

 

(Please go on .... I  do enjoy playing Callicles     ) 

Edited March 25, 2015 by Nungali

[Nungali]

I hope you guys don't get lost in space while travelling around all those planets.

 

 

[Nungali]

Where I would be meeting you and Nungali.

 

 

I am quiet comfortable with my map and have yet to get 'lost' .... you will find me between  a Neptune Mercury trine somewhere.

[Marblehead]

Yeah, I never get lost.  But I do now and then see some neat places I hadn't planned on seeing.

[Nungali]

Well Ive never heard of that , so Ill stand down.

 

Its a basic underlying premise for understanding the 'old way' of thought and cosmological concepts;

 

 

 

a planetary 'soul'  as a corollary, may have it roots of origin in the old Egyptian concept of the 'spirits of the  decans and nomes. 

[Nungali]

Yeah, I never get lost.  But I do now and then see some neat places I hadn't planned on seeing.

 

 

Well, I did nearly get lost once - in New Zealand. After a big blizzard. I stopped alongside the road and looked into the forest. - WOW! I had to check it out; the ground was covered in moss and gnarly treeroots with a network of frozen soild streamlets running through it. The tree ferns were all covered in one big sheet of lacework ice, icicles and other formations were everywhere, the sun was out and shining and reflecting rainbows and bands of colour everywhere.

 

I went further in in wonder, not paying attention, like a kid following the candy trail to the gingerbread house. An amazing environment - myrtle forest it was.   Eventually I ... ;    hey, which way back ? 

 

I did find my way back obviously ....   a bit too cold to lost there, however further north I found an equally beautiful warm place; fresh pure water, wild sweet potato , mushrooms, berries, watercress and and an abundance of trout that could be just lifted out the stream (if you stealthy and quick enough) ... boy!  I could sure get ' lost ' there  - permanently ! 

[DreamBliss]

Edited March 26, 2015 by DreamBliss

[Michael Sternbach]

Of course ; spirit - fire - water - air - earth. 

 

 

 

yes .... and ? 

 

(Please go on .... I  do enjoy playing Callicles     ) 

 

Well, I just demonstrated that even from a more orthodox occultist view, it is a reasonable assumption that thoughts and emotions are materialized or reflected in the body and external environment. By consciously choosing and projecting our thoughts, we can therefore alter our physical experiences.

 

That is the whole of the Law of Attraction in a nutshell.

 

I am not sure if what you are attacking in this thread is the basic tenets of the LoA, or only its dumbed down varieties.

[DreamBliss]

From what I can determine Nungali, as well as possibly others, are against what they call pop LoA.

 

But I wonder... Have they gone to pop LoA conferences? Do they even know what it is they are defining? In what way do they define this, based on what personal expreience?

 

If they have gone to pop LoA conferences, have they gone to whatever they think of as its opposite? Who exactly did they see? Who exactly, in their mind is not pop LoA in the LoA teachers?

 

I honestly feel that those that have posted against LoA have a stick up their arse regarding it, but I think they put it there, that they have never really had any personal exprerience at all with these teachings.

 

By personal experience I mean they, themselves, not 3rd party. I also mean that they spent the time to actually apply the teachings and lived them to discover their veracity. Not just looked at them through the lens of their criticsm and judgment.

 

But ultimately what does it matter? I am not trying to convert anyone here. I am only a proponent of empowerment and being open-minded, and everything I have done is to that end. If people do not want to be empowered or open-minded, well that's their business.

 

I admit I struggle with the teachings. I feel I am handicapped because I have no idea what the hell this sense of oneness is, which seems like a necassary ingredient to living these teachings. But the only people, as far as I know, who exprerience this are those who are enlightened, or who have died and come back to life.

 

I will continue along my chosen path. I have found no reason anywhere in this thread to adopt the belief system of the subconsious mind. I will hobble along, limited as I am, at least in this moment, and figure things out for myself.

 

That is, afterall, part of my practice. Somehow I have to think from the inside out, not the outside in like I have been. Somehow I have to have faith and trust in the things I have decided to believe. Somehow I have to be myself, and in being myself, allow my purpose to unfold. So I will invest my energy there, not quabbling over belief systems or symantics.

 

For the record, I do appreciate that so many have cared enough to come in here and post, even if has been in disagreement. This forum is a good community and I appreciate that I was led to it. But it is just like a culture someone may end up growing up in. Sooner or later the time comes to cast off the collective beliefs of the group and go your own way. For me that time is now.

Edited March 26, 2015 by DreamBliss

[Marblehead]

From what I can determine Nungali, as well as possibly others, are against what they call pop LoA.

I'm not necessarily against it.  I just don't know enough to form an opinion and have no desire to learn about it.

[Nungali]

Well, I just demonstrated that even from a more orthodox occultist view, it is a reasonable assumption that thoughts and emotions are materialized or reflected in the body and external environment. By consciously choosing and projecting our thoughts, we can therefore alter our physical experiences. That is the whole of the Law of Attraction in a nutshell. I am not sure if what you are attacking in this thread is the basic tenets of the LoA, or only its dumbed down varieties.

 

Hmmm ....   my vehemence at one must have obscured my writings on the other ?  

 

It should all be in my previous posts. Obviously, what I am attacking is the silly premise in the OP ... that one can just throw out the unconscious by just consciously thinking that you have done that; a 'technique',  it appears, that was based on a base LoA understanding ... as that is what a lot of this LoA stuff is , and what is being taught about it.  And this crap concept, in its simplicity, and designed to turn in a buck to its perpetrators (and some of the main ones guilty of this New Age  marketing crap seem to be certain Australian women !  *  ) 

 

I mean,  I too can 'demonstrate' that  (for example) a carpenter makes a mental idea and from that comes a beautiful  chair.  

 

But he doesnt  just have the idea about the chair, define and refine it in his mind and then wait for the chair to come to him. Its just a part in the process, but an important one. 

 

Nowadays it just has to look like a chair ... thats all, you might buy it, take it home and find its pathetic! It hurts your back, the slats are on an angle that makes the edges dig into the vertebrae, and there is a frame on the seat that presses on one's leg nerves and makes them numb.  (I got one just like that last month   ) ......   a craftsman would never do that!   He would make the chair something of a pleasure and comfort to sit in , according to its purpose. 

 

 

I like this writing on thought; 

 

" To obtain Magical Power, learn to control thought; admit only those ideas that are in harmony with the end desired, and not every stray and contradictory Idea that presents itself.

 

"Fixed thought is a means to an end. Therefore pay attention to the power of silent thought and meditation. The material act is but the outward expression of thy thought, and therefore hath it been said that “the thought of foolishness is sin.” Thought is the commencement of action, and if a chance thought can produce much effect, what cannot fixed thought do? "

 

But it is just one of the four principles. 

 

 

 

*  Rhonda Byrne -   (  featured in Time Magazine's list of 100 people who shape the world.     )

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhonda_Byrne

 

 

 

Ellen Greve -  ( as of 2012, four deaths had been directly linked to her publications !  )

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jasmuheen

Edited March 26, 2015 by Nungali

[Michael Sternbach]

I did find some of the shows I witnessed that could be categorized as LoA somewhat on the silly side. Then again, there are always dumbed down simplified versions of spiritual teachings for the masses. It's inevitable. Opium for the people!

 

All I wanted was to clarify that the basic tenet of the Law of Attraction - the assumption that thoughts tend to attract their likes - is not at odds with Occultist lores. Just consider the Law of Analogy, especially as applied in Hermetic/Sympathetic Magic.

Edited March 26, 2015 by Michael Sternbach

[Nungali]

From what I can determine Nungali, as well as possibly others, are against what they call pop LoA.

 

But I wonder... Have they gone to pop LoA conferences? Do they even know what it is they are defining? In what way do they define this, based on what personal expreience?

 

Do I even know what I am defining ?  You just ignored all the posts that were written and come up with that ?

 

The better question seems' do you even know what you are reading' ? 

 

You just seem to ignore what has already been written and explained at times. It is like you dont want to see it, so you pretend it isnt there.  How many times do I have to re outline my experience about it ?

 

How many times do I have to say I live in a world where these type of new age thoughts are prevalent, that I have seen them do damage and cause disruption to the good and great things people can get together.  I have lived on an alternative community for near 30 years, I have put on many 'New Age' alternative festivals. There were all sorts of workshops and things there including LoA.  I was a tarot reader at an alternative market for 10 years .  

 

I watched a good friend die from breast cancer while she used her power of positive thought to heal it, and listened to a whole range of 'spiritual' new age 'healers' and teachers fill her innocent and persuadable head with New age rubbish.   I watched another girl die of cancer while her parents admonished her for bringing it on herself by having the wrong 'mental attitude' - it was horrible!

 

I have been in a 4 year supreme court case where the 'spiritual new age founders' of the community I lived on bore witness against their own community that did all the work and realised what they tried to visualise only ... they lost. they appealed with utter similar mental bullshit, they lost again.

 

Now the remnant wackos that practice this BS that are still there are set for a round of local court  (against me as a company director), because they believe in 'manifestation' but wont pay the rent the signed a contract to for a whole lot of stupid illogical cosmic reasons that are not going to pay  the rates or electricity.

 

They are fighting against the very people that are creating structure and order in able for them to try and live their community dream ... the judge will bring them back to earth (or at least bring down their bank balances! )

 

Also I have over 30 years experience in studying such things ... the occult and mysticism and magic, and had to pass through a series of examinations and grades to be able to prove I knew my stuff ... I worked for that group as an inspector and national secretary and an assistant to that groups international board. of directors for several years.

 

I rushed over to the school next door once as there was a bushfire in the school grounds, when I got there, high flames were racing through the long uncut grass, up the hill, towards the kindergarten, closer to the kindergarten, little kids were running in that high above their heads grass that the fire was heading towards. I found their ,new age. teacher sitting in lotus on the grass 'meditating' a 'safe field' around the children. I abused he, woke her up, forced her to take the children to the safety point, zoomed home and came back with some people, our tractor and slasher to cut a fire break and our fire-fighting equipment and saved the  school from fire and the children from injury.

 

6 months later, the dry grass is again overhead height and they are still meditating for the children's safety   

 

I told their parents and ... well, they pretty much had the same attitude about me as  dream bliss seems to ... I was wrecking their pretty perceptions about things.

 

And you want to know my experience ... and you  assume my outlook is because I have something stuck up my rectum ? ? ? 

 

And you !  What is your extensive experience  with it ? 

 

But no, you will just poke your tongue out, call me a know it all, but then question if I have ever had any experience with it?

 

This too is a typical approach of these types of New Age 'philosophers'.

 

And people wonder why I have scorn for them ! 

 

If they have gone to pop LoA conferences, have they gone to whatever they think of as its opposite? Who exactly did they see? Who exactly, in their mind is not pop LoA in the LoA teachers?

 

Been there done that already explained.

 

 

 

I honestly feel that those that have posted against LoA have a stick up their arse regarding it, but I think they put it there, that they have never really had any personal exprerience at all with these teachings.

 

That is a nice safe and secure thought for you isnt it ?

 

 

 

By personal experience I mean they, themselves, not 3rd party. I also mean that they spent the time to actually apply the teachings and lived them to discover their veracity. Not just looked at them through the lens of their criticsm and judgment.

 

Ha!  I left home long ago, I live fulfilling my life in joy and celbration, you should see what I have managed to manifest ! Everything I have needed ... but not everything I have ever greeded.   And I did it magically ... but by understanding 'practical' magic.

 

As the crown was in the last disastrous stages of obviously loosing the Supreme Cort case against us, the prosecutor blurted out in unprofessional exasperation " But your honour, these people are outside the system, they have a a large riverfront property surrounded by pristine rainforest, they live in houses they built themselves, they dont even have a mortgage or debts to pay off and they live on paying $30  a week and putting on hippy festivals."

 

The judge replied; "Yes, they have been rather clever haven't they ... but they have not broken any laws ."

 

Also I can mention the continuous and numerous events throughout the court case where it magically and strangely went our way , even straight solicitors commented on that, they would say "I have never seen anything like this! How do you do it, They throw you in the river and you manage to stumble and bounce along every stepping stone and land on the opposite bank on a silk pillow with a cocktail in your hand "

 

Yes; it was 'magick' ... but it wasnt some type of 'Think magick ' and wait for 'something ' to come about.  It was ;think magic, plus, plus, plus,   : study, legal system, logistics research, visualisation, putting things into practice, divination (using strategy from the 'Art of War', devotions and offerings to Maat, etc. etc. 

 

Thoe that wanted to visualise and wait for it to happen would be evicted by now if I had not punched my way through their BS and DID something about it !

 

Now they are about to go through it again in the local court .... it wont be a case of sticks up rectums , it will be a case of sticks applied firmly across buttocks  (or bank accounts ) 

 

No experience eh!    Actually, its you that dont have a clue about me ..... but keep thinking I dont know what I am talking about, if that helps your emotional security ... but remember , it is you that actually wants to change your physical situation.

 

One day you might drag yourself out of that limbo and instead of only visualising what you want, actually go out there and try to do your part about it as well. 

 

 

 

 

But ultimately what does it matter? I am not trying to convert anyone here. I am only a proponent of empowerment and being open-minded, and everything I have done is to that end. If people do not want to be empowered or open-minded, well that's their business.

 

I already am,    but you think I am not and ignorant of it  and your 'lessons' will lead me to  it    

 

 

 

I admit I struggle with the teachings. I feel I am handicapped because I have no idea what the hell this sense of oneness is, which seems like a necassary ingredient to living these teachings. But the only people, as far as I know, who exprerience this are those who are enlightened, or who have died and come back to life.

 

What!   You see some mythological resurrection  as a sign of realising oneness.    Oh dear ! 

 

 

 

 

I will continue along my chosen path. I have found no reason anywhere in this thread to adopt the belief system of the subconsious mind. I will hobble along, limited as I am, at least in this moment, and figure things out for myself.

 

good luck then

 

 

 

 

 

That is, afterall, part of my practice. Somehow I have to think from the inside out, not the outside in like I have been. Somehow I have to have faith and trust in the things I have decided to believe. Somehow I have to be myself, and in being myself, allow my purpose to unfold. So I will invest my energy there, not quabbling over belief systems or symantics.

 

For the record, I do appreciate that so many have cared enough to come in here and post, even if has been in disagreement. This forum is a good community and I appreciate that I was led to it. But it is just like a culture someone may end up growing up in. Sooner or later the time comes to cast off the collective beliefs of the group and go your own way. For me that time is now.

 

 

And also it was before ... when you ran off and were finished here. The above paragraph seems to be your default statment when things get a little 'hot in the kitchen'.

 

Off you go then.    At  least you will have all the useful knowledge that people posted in here when you finally realise there might be more to this LoA attraction thingo than you and the other 'visualisers' might imagine. 

[Nungali]

I'm not necessarily against it.  I just don't know enough to form an opinion and have no desire to learn about it.

 

because you are content with what you needed to manifest ... and got it ( I assume by NOT just visualisation  and 'good thoughts'  ? )   but not what you 'greeded'   ?