Throwing Out The Subconscious or Unconscious Mind

[Nungali]

I did find some of the shows I witnessed that could be categorized as LoA somewhat on the silly side. Then again, there are always dumbed down simplified versions of spiritual teachings for the masses. It's inevitable. Opium for the people!

 

All I wanted was to clarify that the basic tenet of the Law of Attraction - the assumption that thoughts tend to attract their likes - is not at odds with Occultist lores. Just consider the Law of Analogy, especially as applied in Hermetic/Sympathetic Magic.

 

 

But your basic tenet only applies if we rule out the sometimes subversive or dissident nature of forces that influence thoughts from the unconscious or elsewhere. (The real underlying reason for this threads premise in the first place,  hmmmmmmm ?  

 

 One thing in your example deals with sympathies between things ... another deals with human consciousness. Entirely different kettle of fish there.  

 

Surely some of the personal processes evident  (to some) in this thread have demonstrated that ? 

Edited March 26, 2015 by Nungali

[Michael Sternbach]

But your basic tenet only applies if we rule out the sometimes subversive or dissident nature of forces that influence thoughts from the unconscious or elsewhere.   One thing in your example deals with sympathies between things ... another deals with human consciousness. Entirely different kettle of fish there.  

 

Surely some of the personal processes evident  (to some) in this thread have demonstrated that ? 

 

The intent and thought of the Magician is what matters most in any form of Sympathetic Magic. External tools of an analogous nature only serve to focus that intent.

Edited March 26, 2015 by Michael Sternbach

[Marblehead]

because you are content with what you needed to manifest ... and got it ( I assume by NOT just visualisation  and 'good thoughts'  ? )   but not what you 'greeded'   ? 

I really doubt there have been many times in my life where I experienced the emotion of greed.  I can't remember any right at the moment.  Yes, I have always managed to get what I needed.  I took action to manifest that whatever.  No, I didn't get down on my knees and pray to some deity.  I sometimes had to work very hard.  And no, I didn't attract those whatevers, I took action to cause them to be legally mine.

[Nungali]

Sympathetic magic isnt worth a crock unless it results in an effect.   If the intent isnt focused then it dissipates ... like the air  to which thoughts are corresponded.

 

What? Thoughts and mind are are at the top of the pyramid now are they ?  How can someone like you, that appreciates the holistic principles ... see one aspect as 'what matters most' ? 

 

You must know I cant agree with that from a magical, Buddhist, or elemental theory view.  Mind and thought are servants to the overall integrated processes of 'manifestation' .... no, you cant just do (what the mind considers ) what matters most (that is ; itself  matters most) its all the processes in integration. This is just the mind asserting control (and that usually happens when the 'higher' planes are knocked out or confused; water, fire and spirit.  The water of the emotions are confused and unregulated, the fire of individuation and inspiration are oppressed, and most people dont seem to understand 'spirit' at all ! So mind takes over.

 

This is the modern world of Cartesian Dualism and Economic Rationalism where mind (and 'lower' air )  is supreme.

 

The intent and thought of the magician you talk about seems 'old school' ie. pre-psychology where  subversive forces were seen to come from 'outside', as long as you were safe from the devil or demons, your mind was fine.

 

I dont think your statements here address the things you also seem to admit about the unconscious being able to influence the conscious mind ?.

[Nungali]

I really doubt there have been many times in my life where I experienced the emotion of greed.  I can't remember any right at the moment.  Yes, I have always managed to get what I needed.  I took action to manifest that whatever.  No, I didn't get down on my knees and pray to some deity.  I sometimes had to work very hard.  And no, I didn't attract those whatevers, I took action to cause them to be legally mine.

 

 

Lovely ... an open and    practical  mind    

[Michael Sternbach]

Sympathetic magic isnt worth a crock unless it results in an effect.   If the intent isnt focused then it dissipates ... like the air  to which thoughts are corresponded.

 

I think that grounding the intent with physical objects as representatives is generally recommendable although not always necessary. And yes, there are techniques common in modern visualization which do take this into account.

 

What? Thoughts and mind are are at the top of the pyramid now are they ?

 

Not quite. What is above them is Spirit/Fire/The Ace of Wands/The Source where - unbeknownst to the Conscious Mind - the Archetypal impulses originate of which the Mind becomes aware of, then wields its Sword and makes decisions as how to deal with and express them in physical and external reality. The Conscious Mind = Tiphareth = The Sun, with a strong tie-in to Air - and Mercury who connects the upper and the lower levels and introduces the concept of duality.

 

That's why our thoughts really matter.

 

 How can someone like you, that appreciates the holistic principles ... see one aspect as 'what matters most' ? 

 

I don't recall saying that the mind matters most. But it surely occupies a special position from where it is capable of making decisions.

 

But this is not to deny that there is constant interplay between all levels going on, of course.

 

You must know I cant agree with that from a magical, Buddhist, or elemental theory view.  Mind and thought are servants to the overall integrated processes of 'manifestation' .... no, you cant just do (what the mind considers ) what matters most (that is ; itself  matters most) its all the processes in integration. This is just the mind asserting control (and that usually happens when the 'higher' planes are knocked out or confused; water, fire and spirit.  The water of the emotions are confused and unregulated, the fire of individuation and inspiration are oppressed, and most people dont seem to understand 'spirit' at all ! So mind takes over.

 

This is the modern world of Cartesian Dualism and Economic Rationalism where mind (and 'lower' air )  is supreme.

 

The intent and thought of the magician you talk about seems 'old school' ie. pre-psychology where  subversive forces were seen to come from 'outside', as long as you were safe from the devil or demons, your mind was fine.

 

I dont think your statements here address the things you also seem to admit about the unconscious being able to influence the conscious mind ?.

 

I hope that I have remedied this omission a little with this post.

[Nungali]

Michael, I thought of another example (while I sit here and have my morning coffee);

 

Think of aikido and the 'immovable body' ... supposedly (and I agree with this) it relies on 4 principles;  Extend Ki, concentrate on hara, no mind and keep weight underside.  They are mental visualisations.

 

But they are actually helpers to get one to not be sucked into the opponents  body movement or emotional state, and to 'purify your own emotional and mind state so you dont react wrongly but respond automatically.

 

Some teachers might say it is all in the mind and the power of visualised Ki ... but it isnt. They are tools that help the mind and emotions focus on the practicality at hand. When I was unable to do it, the teachers corrected me by gettting me to realign and move my body differently ...  (even though they said it was the power of Ki     )

 

If you think it is 'magic power of thought or visualisation ... I could show you how that falls down (and you would too ) if we could get into physical contact. 

 

But without the benefit of that physical interaction, I will let this guy explain the basics;

 

 

 

 

Of course, the point of this practice is not to be adversely effected by others emotions, and mental states that enter our personal  'sphere', whether it is in martial arts, work environment, our relationships, etc. 

 

But just having the mental attitude will not make other fly through the air or make you 'immovable'.

 

Unless you are one of these programmed followers ;

 

see @ 1:25

 

 

or if you come up against a non follower:

 

 

watch the beginning and then go to  2:15

 

 

 

but at the same time, you  cannot do this in an unstable emotional or mental state; 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X1HXk04rxP4

 

 

 

I hope I made sense now ? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

But also

Edited March 27, 2015 by Nungali

[Michael Sternbach]

Or to say it more simply, the Conscious Self is a God in the making. It holds the Divine spark that can kindle the fire of its all-encompassing awareness. That is, if it removes the beliefs that hinder its clear vision. (Now I sound like Seth and Buddhism. ) In other words, if it chooses the right path (oops, and now I sound like Star Wars. )

 

But I'm sure you get the idea?

[Nungali]

I don't recall saying that the mind matters most.

 

"  thought of the Magician is what matters most  "  post 278 

 

But it surely occupies a special position from where it is capable of making decisions.

 

 

I have not denied that at all actually , I affirmed it in the Liber Librae quote about the power of thought  

 

But this is not to deny that there is constant interplay between all levels going on, of course.

 

So ... is it that interplay or one of the components of the interplay that is more significant ? 

[DreamBliss]

Nungali

 

I apologize. You obviously have had experience with what you refer to as pop LoA. You obviously have a reason to see it the way you do. I admit that, if compared to you, I have no ground to stand on. I admit that you have more experience in this than I do.

 

I don't know if it will make you feel any better, but I am right with you in regards to the teacher sitting there trying to manifest some sort of protection for the children, instead of actualy doing anything about it. I remember on the news some time ago I heard about some Christian family that was trying to pray their children well instead of actually taking them to a doctor, that in fact they didn't believe in doing that, and I can't remember exactly what happened but I think the children died.

 

Although it s critism and judgment, I find such actions despicable  and unintelligent. If modern medical care is needed, if it is life threatening, then it should be used. It is there for a reason. Very few people are at the level where they can use their faith, whatever belief system they hold, to heal themselves. Even if a parent is at that level, their children may not be. Any resistance can interfere with faith. Better to admit one's lack of faith and use the resources at hand.

 

Belief systems should never get in the way of common sense. Sometimes prayer is needed, sometimes action is needed, I think the key is to work from the inside out, not let external circumstances have power over you, but not ignoring external circumstances at the risk of your own safety or the safety of others.

 

I want to clarify one more thing... LoA and my course of action of throwing out the belief of the subconsious mind have nothing to do with each other. I read something in LoA, and it made me realize that I had adopted beliefs that, in my mind, did not empower me. So I made my choice. But I was not following the instructions in an LoA book.

 

To be clear: LoA does not teach against the belief of the subconsious mind.

Edited March 27, 2015 by DreamBliss

[Marblehead]

Or to say it more simply, the Conscious Self is a God in the making. It holds the Divine spark that can kindle the fire of its all-encompassing awareness. That is, if it removes the beliefs that hinder its clear vision. (Now I sound like Seth and Buddhism. ) In other words, if it chooses the right path (oops, and now I sound like Star Wars. )

 

But I'm sure you get the idea?

In other words, magic works only if you believe it works.

[freeform]

I honestly feel that those that have posted against LoA have a stick up their arse regarding it, but I think they put it there, that they have never really had any personal exprerience at all with these teachings.

Being disrespectful to people who you've asked for help will endear you to no one.

 

Especially if you show no valid attempt to try and be 'open minded' as you keep saying, and at least temporarily see from the point of view of another perspective before rebutting it in a well considered, intelligent way. Instead of just robotically reacting in a childish and obtuse manner.

Edited March 27, 2015 by freeform

[Michael Sternbach]

In other words, magic works only if you believe it works.

 

No, magic is at work all the time. But belief amplifies everything it touches - it is a magical force.

[DreamBliss]

In other words, magic works only if you believe it works.

 

Same for LoA. Belief and faith are the keys that unlock the door.

Edited March 27, 2015 by DreamBliss

[DreamBliss]

Being disrespectful to people who you've asked for help will endear you to no one.

 

Especially if you show no valid attempt to try and be 'open minded' as you keep saying, and at least temporarily see from the point of view of another perspective before rebutting it in a well considered, intelligent way. Instead of just robotically reacting in a childish and obtuse manner.

 

You are correct. Again I apologize. I went too far with that. I critisized and judged. I failed to practice what I preach. I failed to maintain my practice, to keep up with my intention, to neither critisize or judge. Even now I am critiszing and judging myself. I have no answers and no more words on this. I will simply apologize to anyone else who posts similarly.

[Michael Sternbach]

Michael, I thought of another example (while I sit here and have my morning coffee);

 

Think of aikido and the 'immovable body' ... supposedly (and I agree with this) it relies on 4 principles;  Extend Ki, concentrate on hara, no mind and keep weight underside.  They are mental visualisations.

 

Same in Taiji, by the way. But they are not just mental visualizations. They are performed both mentally and physically. They are only initiated by the mind (is that what you mean?).

 

But they are actually helpers to get one to not be sucked into the opponents  body movement or emotional state, and to 'purify your own emotional and mind state so you dont react wrongly but respond automatically.

 

Some teachers might say it is all in the mind and the power of visualised Ki ... but it isnt. They are tools that help the mind and emotions focus on the practicality at hand. When I was unable to do it, the teachers corrected me by gettting me to realign and move my body differently ...  (even though they said it was the power of Ki     )

 

If you think it is 'magic power of thought or visualisation ...

 

There is indeed much more to Ki than a mental visualization. It is the Vital Force of the ancient Greeks, Mercury, Prana, Orgone, the World Soul, probably even the Rainbow Dragon of the Aborigines    - choose whatever name you like.

 

I could show you how that falls down (and you would too ) if we could get into physical contact. 

 

But without the benefit of that physical interaction, I will let this guy explain the basics;

 

 

 

Yes, he is using anatomy and mechanics, but he starts out by concentrating on a foot.

 

Of course, the point of this practice is not to be adversely effected by others emotions, and mental states that enter our personal  'sphere', whether it is in martial arts, work environment, our relationships, etc. 

 

But just having the mental attitude will not make other fly through the air or make you 'immovable'.

 

I never said it would.

 

Unless you are one of these programmed followers ;

 

see @ 1:25

 

 

Hilarious.

 

or if you come up against a non follower:

 

 

watch the beginning and then go to  2:15

 

 

Well, at least it shows that he really believed what he was teaching.

 

but at the same time, you  cannot do this in an unstable emotional or mental state; 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X1HXk04rxP4

 

Also choreographed, but impressive.

 

I hope I made sense now ? 

 

Yes, you do. Most of the time, anyway.

Edited March 27, 2015 by Michael Sternbach

[forestofclarity]

If you throw out the unconscious mind, unfortunately, you also toss out memory and object recognition. So you won't be able to move, speak, or do anything other than witness a bizarre flurry of sensations. 

[Nungali]

Nungali

 

I apologize. You obviously have had experience with what you refer to as pop LoA. You obviously have a reason to see it the way you do. I admit that, if compared to you, I have no ground to stand on. I admit that you have more experience in this than I do.

 

I don't know if it will make you feel any better, but I am right with you in regards to the teacher sitting there trying to manifest some sort of protection for the children, instead of actualy doing anything about it. I remember on the news some time ago I heard about some Christian family that was trying to pray their children well instead of actually taking them to a doctor, that in fact they didn't believe in doing that, and I can't remember exactly what happened but I think the children died.

 

Although it s critism and judgment, I find such actions despicable  and unintelligent. If modern medical care is needed, if it is life threatening, then it should be used. It is there for a reason. Very few people are at the level where they can use their faith, whatever belief system they hold, to heal themselves. Even if a parent is at that level, their children may not be. Any resistance can interfere with faith. Better to admit one's lack of faith and use the resources at hand.

 

Belief systems should never get in the way of common sense. Sometimes prayer is needed, sometimes action is needed, I think the key is to work from the inside out, not let external circumstances have power over you, but not ignoring external circumstances at the risk of your own safety or the safety of others.

 

I want to clarify one more thing... LoA and my course of action of throwing out the belief of the subconsious mind have nothing to do with each other. I read something in LoA, and it made me realize that I had adopted beliefs that, in my mind, did not empower me. So I made my choice. But I was not following the instructions in an LoA book.

 

To be clear: LoA does not teach against the belief of the subconsious mind.

 

 

Thats all good except for the last bit,   no, it may not have instructed you to do that ... but I think your believed course of action in what you wanted to do in throwing out the subconscious by a mental act of denial came about by your dabblings with this LoA thing.

[Nungali]

In other words, magic works only if you believe it works.

 

 

Not really .    I saw a doco on placebos ... one scientists gets this idea; "What if we tell them its  a placebo and dont blind the test?"

 

It still worked in a similar proportion. 

[Nungali]

Being disrespectful to people who you've asked for help will endear you to no one.

 

Especially if you show no valid attempt to try and be 'open minded' as you keep saying, and at least temporarily see from the point of view of another perspective before rebutting it in a well considered, intelligent way. Instead of just robotically reacting in a childish and obtuse manner.

 

 

Let alone the psychological implications behind the insult !

 

Where is Dr Freud  when you need him !  

[Nungali]

You are correct. Again I apologize. I went too far with that. I critisized and judged. I failed to practice what I preach. I failed to maintain my practice, to keep up with my intention, to neither critisize or judge. Even now I am critiszing and judging myself. I have no answers and no more words on this. I will simply apologize to anyone else who posts similarly.

 

Well, who hasnt at some stage or other  <shrug>  ... anyway, I noticed you acknowledged my averse experience with  some New Age magical 'manifesters' in my post .

 

Any comments about the good experiences I listed and how I was able to manifest the wonderful things I enjoy ?  

 

Nungers ; " I left home long ago, I live fulfilling my life in joy and celebration, you should see what I have managed to manifest ! Everything I have needed ... but not everything I have ever greeded.   And I did it magically ... but by understanding 'practical' magic." 

Edited March 27, 2015 by Nungali

[Nungali]

Same in Taiji, by the way. But they are not just mental visualizations. They are performed both mentally and physically. They are only initiated by the mind (is that what you mean?).

 

Yes. and it needs to be followed up with the physical and also initiated from levels above the mind.

 

Not just 'think' of getting something and visualising.  Not just writing some extra zeros on the end of your bank balance statement (yes, it could be true, maybe the guy that did that did increase his income; wrote the zeros and then went out and worked harder or found a new opportunity -  but that is not how it was portrayed in the 'The Secret' film. 

 

 

There is indeed much more to Ki than a mental visualization. It is the Vital Force of the ancient Greeks, Mercury, Prana, Orgone, the World Soul, probably even the Rainbow Dragon of the Aborigines    - choose whatever name you like.

 

 But still ... if you stand there casually and not  in correct physical form and chnanell the whole Ki of the Universe ... I can still push you over. And a teacher I trained with who denied Ki and only did isometric I could not push over , even with all my isometrics and ki !   <shrug>

 

 

 

Yes, he is using anatomy and mechanics, but he starts out by concentrating on a foot.

 

 

I never said it would.

 

I am criticising some ideas arising in the thread about the power of mind alone.

 

 

 

Hilarious.

 

 

Well, at least it shows that he really believed what he was teaching.

 

I like the way that the JJ guy, when he realised he had actually hurt a foolish old man that had no place in a ring without his mindless devotees ... he became immediately concerned and rushed to his aid..... then went and collected his prize money on offer  

 

 

 

Also choreographed, but impressive.

 

Yes, its hard to do crisp and clean choreography without a clear mind and emotions.

 

And on that note ... I am outa here ... its Sat morning and I am off to train by the river at the park

 

That wont be choreographed at all ... I will probably be sent to work with the newbs again and try to contain their wild fagellating spastic movements   

 

 

Yes, you do. Most of the time, anyway.

 

Oh?    I must be slipping.  

[Marblehead]

Not really .    I saw a doco on placebos ... one scientists gets this idea; "What if we tell them its  a placebo and dont blind the test?"

 

It still worked in a similar proportion. 

Oh, there was something going on deep inside that grey matter.  The human mind isn't near as predictable as many people believe.

[Michael Sternbach]

Oh, there was something going on deep inside that grey matter.  The human mind isn't near as predictable as many people believe.

 

Correspondingly, probably on some layer, a pill is a pill to the unconscious, thus a symbol of healing, no matter what the conscious mind says about it.

 

Since we are conditioned to associate a pill with betterment unconsciously, backed up by plenty of experiences.

[Nungali]

AHA !   Unconsciously!     And  backed up by experience . 

 

There lies some deep magical power !

Edited March 28, 2015 by Nungali