Throwing Out The Subconscious or Unconscious Mind

[DreamBliss]

Hehehe.  Yes we think in language (symbol).  No language, no thinking.  Honey bee mentality.

 

And yes, in a way, learning a language is being programmed, in a way.

 

To know that the word "tree" represents a woody plant and not a vending machine is important.

 

I honestly do not know about the connections the poster you are replying to has made.

 

I will say that I speak a language I was never taught. I have no idea what the words mean, but at certain times in my life, usually at what I would call very happy or joyful moments, can speak this strange language, sometimes I sing in it.

 

In my honest opinion we don't need words for thoughts. We would just think in pictures. Words are just symbols for things we encounter or experience in the physical world. Plants have an intellegence, but if they are speaking a language, I sure don't know what it could be!

Edited February 26, 2015 by DreamBliss

[Marblehead]

I honestly do not know about the connections the poster you are replying to has made.

Hehehe.   I have no idea either but thought it to contain an important concept.

 

I will say that I speak a language I was never taught. I have no idea what the words mean, but at certain times in my life, usually at what I would call very happy or joyful moments, can speak this strange language, sometimes I sing in it.

Yes, you are speaking here of spontaneous and intuitive living.  And yes, living spontaneously and intuitively will most times allow for happy or joyful moments in our life.  But remember, this is mostly us interacting with our Self.  These experiences can be very peaceful and happy times

 

In my honest opinion we don't need words for thoughts. We would just think in pictures. Words are just symbols for things we encounter or experience in the physical world. Plants have an intellegence, but if they are speaking a language, I sure don't know what it could be!

I will agree that for our self, and our self only, we don't need language.  But to be able to communicate with others properly we need a common language. 

 

Yes, plants communicate, mostly with chemicals.  But we don't want to be spraying our chemicals on others.  So we use words.

 

I think that in dreams (our unconscious mind) language isn't that important.  We are having direct experiences with our brain.

[DreamBliss]

Maybe that's how I get a female to mate with me! Just douse her with the right chemicles...

 

No wait, that sounds bad...

[Marblehead]

Maybe that's how I get a female to mate with me! Just douse her with the right chemicles...

 

No wait, that sounds bad...

Hehehe.  Yes, that sounds bad.  But most other animals use that method in one way or another.  It has been suggested that humans did too in the early stages of our evolution but we became civilized and started using store bought chemicals to do the job.

[Nikolai1]

 

Maybe that's how I get a female to mate with me! Just douse her with the right chemicles...

 

No wait, that sounds bad..

.

 

 

I'm sure  DreamBliss pheromones are strictly legal

[freeform]

Err... Surely one would just manifest a female?!

[Marblehead]

Err... Surely one would just manifest a female?!

Hehehe.  If one can ever figure out what they are made of.

 

 

PS  Some say they are made of sugar and spice and everything nice but my experiences is that there is other stuff in there too.

Edited February 26, 2015 by Marblehead

[DreamBliss]

Err... Surely one would just manifest a female?!

 

You have to manifest money before the female, or else you will be in serious trouble...

 

[Nungali]

I am off to cure the suffering of the world by looking at the disadvantage, the homeless,  the sick, the mentally deranged and the unfortunate and not projecting a label on to them ....   yes that is sarcasm.

 

Since you want to accept what I offer, get ready for the bitter draught. I am not going to swoon your   - out of control unconscious denying -  ego with sugar sweet comments here.  

 

Oh and thanks for the tip in telling me that those that suffer are spiritual beings too ... really ?   I thought that people that suffered had no spirit ...   (see the end of para 1 )

 

Just imagine when I worked in the hospital, the psyche unit, the refugee relocation centre  if instead of actively going there and helping I   turned up and walked around not labelling anyone to help the 'forces' correct their life ... or something.

 

Now you are talking about manifesting a woman.

 

I cant wait until you move out of home and get off the titty and have to do some real  manifestation to look after just yourself (let alone anyone else ) properly. 

 

You said " I did not ask for you to be here consciously."  yet you have cancelled out and declared null ( just by an act of declaration) your unconscious mind .... so I suppose all that is left for you is the super-conscious  or 'spirit' or something.   But since you believe you attract what you ask for ... even when you are not aware of it (here you may be beginning to get somewhere  )   that leaves you a space to try and figure out why I am here, interacting with you. ... I wondered when the 'logic; of your system would throw that up. 

 

"Everything happens for a reason. It does not have to have a reason to happen."   So, good, you are getting clearer, that means if people suffer misfortune, it might not be their fault.   Why do bad things and situations happen to people?  It does not have to have a reason .... a reason can easily relate to a judgement ... like you made preciously ... they must have attracted it to themselves.  Actually, by that 'philosophy'  you have invited me to do  what ever I want to you and with you ... as its all what you wanted and it doesnt even come from your Id / unconscious ...  because you dont have one.

 

" So the first step is to stop throwing labels on everyone. To stop calling people things like disadvantaged, homeless or poor. To stop comparing people to yourself and other people and trying to define them that way. Such a viewpoint reinforces a victim role. Do you really want to contribute to someone playing a victim role?"  Typical Low of attraction BS!     You want to hide and mask this ...  the suffering in the world.  You think it can be cured by giving it another name.

 

Should I stop using the word refugee camp, homeless, disposed, diaspora for these people 

 

 

 

because it makes you feel they are being judged ..... sorry if that offends you ... lets not put a label on them . And heavens no! lets not compare them to myself   as having less and suffering more ... because  what will that make of me ? 

 

No ... they are all in a holiday camp and testing out a new plastic product .    Feel better now ? 

 

" You help to create it by criticizing, comparing, contrasting and judging people, placing them in groups, us VS them, duality, all that stuff. "

 

Utter crap !    I help to create it by turning a blind eye to it, by accepting the injustice, by not going and doing aid work, by sitting here on my fat white arse playing on a computer and wasting money that I could have sent to help give a kid a clean drink of water.   And I think that even though I have done done years of work with the sick, elderly homeless and refugees.

 

What? Too hard Princess?   Then put me on ignore and go back to the fur patting people that support you, they will make you feel a lot better than I will ! 

 

" Even if you do not believe that we create our reality, what makes you feel better? To see someone on the street you would call disadvantaged, homeless or poor, and feel sorry for them? Or have pity on them? Or to look at this person and see God in them. See Source in them. See a better life experience for them. Spend a few moments and see them doing some sort of work they love, smiling, happy, getting a paycheck, having a roof over their head, etc."

 

Why cant I see god in them and acknowledge they are having a hard time and friggin help them ? !      See that old lady struggling to cross the street ... no, dont go and help her, dont call her an old lady and dont say the word 'struggling' ... just visualise her young and healthy and skipping across the road. 

 

The rest of your post seems to attempt to justify other subjects with this outlook

 

 

And here we get to the gist of why this Law of Attraction BS is so popular with western culture.  Its a band-aid for the guilt lurking deep within our social unconscious, a way of dealing with life in the world, where those ;other spiritual beings' are living in shit while we rest on a silk pillow and philosophise (shallowly)  about why they might be in that situation.

 

Look .... imagine all sorts of good things for them ....  but go and do some work ladling soup or handing out blankets to 'people on the street that may need to be warm tonight'   ie. homeless and hungry  people. (i hope those two words didnt hurt your ears too much .) 

 

I am only doing this because you have attracted it remember. 

 

Seriously, I just had to check your profile to check your age.   Dude ... by now you should have got beyond this ! 

[DreamBliss]

“I am off to cure the suffering of the world by looking at the disadvantage, the homeless, the sick, the mentally deranged and the unfortunate and not projecting a label on to them...”

 

That is only part of the process...

 

“Since you want to accept what I offer, get ready for the bitter draught. I am not going to swoon your - out of control unconscious denying - ego with sugar sweet comments here.”

 

I am not aware, at this moment, of any denial in what I have said. I want you to always speak your truth, authentically and honestly.

 

“Oh and thanks for the tip in telling me that those that suffer are spiritual beings too ... really ? I thought that people that suffered had no spirit ...”

 

I made no assumptions as to your thinking processes. What you think is none of my business. I observed that you were emphasizing the exterior life experience, focused solely on that. I was attempting to gently steer you away from that emphasis.

 

“Just imagine when I worked in the hospital, the psyche unit, the refugee relocation centre if instead of actively going there and helping I turned up and walked around not labelling anyone to help the 'forces' correct their life ... or something.”

 

If you are in that situation, then physical action may be required. The problem is when you identify with the doing as the way to fix the problem. That is rowing upstream. You can not “fix” this sort of situation by throwing effort and work into it. That reinforces the reality of that which you wish to change. It creates resistance.

 

Do the work, as called, compelled or drawn. But while you do the work stop emphasizing and focusing on the exterior circumstances, the collective and individual life experiences. In other words stop getting caught up in apparent reality and calling it “reality.”

 

Instead stop the criticizing, judging and labeling. Stop seeing the people as somehow lacking or less than or imperfect or suffering or hurting or whatever. These things may be happening, yes. But these things are not reality. They are apparent reality. You are witnessing life experiences. You are emphasizing the exterior apparent reality and not the interior Truth.

 

I call it “apparent reality” because it is just one of many possible realities. If there is a reality of hurt, pain and suffering, then there must also exist its opposite, healing, painlessness and freedom from suffering. You can not have one without the other as this is a physical world of duality. If one extreme exists, so does its opposite.

 

You are emphasizing and focused on one extreme, one version of reality that these people are experiencing and that you are witnessing. You are placing all your energy there, and in that way, you contribute to the problem, not the solution. It is better to emphasize and focus on the other extreme, put energy there, and contribute to a solution.

 

The best way of course is to move beyond appearances. Just jump out of the whole duality of suffering or not suffering. But we have to work with where we are, and if where we are is in duality, it is better to emphasize and focus on the on what is desired, not on what is not desired.

 

A practical example is needed... You walk into a Refugee Relocation Unit. You see a woman there, her arm blown off by a mine, the same mine that took the life of her child. She is dirty, in obvious pain, blood seeping through her bandages.

 

It seems to me that you, in this situation, would immediately see a woman, her arm blown off, that lost her child. A woman who is dirty, and in pain. You may go over, kneel down, stroke her head, tell her she is loved, and feel pity for her. Sorrow for her and her loss. If you did so, you would do her a disservice.

 

Because that woman is not the role she is playing at all. That is God you are looking at, God appearing to you as a woman with an arm blown off who has lost a child. Your perception must change. You must see God, in the role of that woman.

 

Only in that space, were you to kneel down and caress her head, would you be doing so out of love, not pity. Only then would you be able to truly love and accept her as she is. Because there is no criticism, and no judgment. You are not identifying with her role. You see who she really is. If you can see who she really is, you can also see, in your mind's eye, a better life experience for her.

 

You could envision her healed, finding a loving and supportive man, the two of them having another child. You could see her happy. You could see her energetic, healthy, well. You could see her being loved and supported.

 

From that place you could take any action to help her that you felt called, compelled or drawn to take, or serve in whatever way it falls into place for you to serve. It could be as simple as handing her some water and helping her drink it. Or it could be more complex, helping her to not identify with her role and think that she is a woman whose arm has been blown off and who lost her son.

 

But it seems to me that you would be incapable of seeing that or acting from that place. I make an observation here, based on the things you have said. It is only my opinion, not a criticism or judgment. I obviously do not know you. I can only observe and base what I say on that.

 

“Now you are talking about manifesting a woman.”

 

No actually, I did not. Another poster brought that up, and I joked along with them and another who commented.

 

That said, I am manifesting a reality where I have someone to share my life with. Where I start a family and have my own house and land.

 

“I cant wait until you move out of home and get off the titty and have to do some real manifestation to look after just yourself (let alone anyone else ) properly.”

 

If I leave the house this spring or summer, as planned, this is exactly what will happen. I look forward to it. I can not master the teachings, to where I become them, until I am living them. On my own I will be forced to live them.

 

You may want to spend some time looking inside yourself to see why you would use words with sexual connotations. I believe I detect the odor of something repressed here, likely sexually repressed. Once again I recommend Osho, “Sex Matters.”

 

“You said " I did not ask for you to be here consciously." yet you have cancelled out and declared null ( just by an act of declaration) your unconscious mind .... so I suppose all that is left for you is the super-conscious or 'spirit' or something. But since you believe you attract what you ask for ... even when you are not aware of it (here you may be beginning to get somewhere ) that leaves you a space to try and figure out why I am here, interacting with you. ... I wondered when the 'logic; of your system would throw that up.”

 

It is not my system, and it is far from logical. Just as in a concept such as Tao or the Dao logic does not apply. I paged through Seth's, “The Nature of Personal Reality” intending to find the passage that drove me to my decision and the reason I started this thread. I was unable, at this time, to find it. It could have been a combination of what I read from Seth and something I read in Abraham's, “Ask and It Is Given.”

 

So I will attempt to explain here to the best of my ability. There is only the conscious mind, no exceptions. Within the conscious mind are those things that you are aware of, and those things you are not aware of. The things you are not aware of are not hidden from you. I recall something I read somewhere about the ego looking out through the window and telling you what it sees.

 

Anyhow this stuff that does not fit in with your perception of reality, the stuff you don't want to remember, all these things get thrown in the corners so to speak. They are never lost, just not easy to locate, as they have not been placed in the filing cabinet system of your mind. They just don't fit in with how you think about things, based on your current beliefs, so you misplace them.

 

There is no subconscious programming. There is no subconscious. It is all consciousness, all the time, nothing hidden. Just the things you are aware of, and the things you are not aware of. Some thoughts get thought over and over again, become habitual thought patterns or beliefs. So if you act out your beliefs, you are acting out the thoughts you are no longer aware of that underlie that belief.

 

Maybe I have doubts about the teachings still, even after proving them right in my own experience. Maybe I have had thoughts repeatedly in the past like, “Life doesn't work that way...” or “That doesn’t happen to me...” or “My prayers are never answered...” or even “God doesn't care...”

 

I am not aware of thinking these thoughts. If they exist they have become thought patterns or beliefs. So when I post something like this thread, there are those beliefs, and they draw in someone like you, and that is how I could have drawn you to me.

 

It could also be from an intention I set, as I may have said already. I set an intention to master the manifestation teachings. Well this thread helped me become aware that I need to become the teachings more than I need to master them, and the things you have said contributed to me having that realization.

 

I don't know the truth of what is happening here, whether I was drawn to you by you are you were drawn to me by me. It really doesn't matter in the end. I will, as I said, read all you posted and come to realize what you are reflecting back at me, if you are serving as a mirror, or what you are telling me, if you are serving as a teacher. In case its the other way around I just have to be whatever it is I need to be for you, and have set an intention to do so.

 

I could look at the exterior circumstances. I could look at my life experience. If I were to look solely at that, to emphasize and focus on that. I would call you an enemy. I would see you as an enemy. In my perception you would be my enemy, and, I would then make an enemy out of you.

 

I chose to not do that. To look at you as my mirror, as my teacher. To see this exchange as an opportunity to learn and deepen my practice. To ignore the “apparent reality” of your enmity and see the less obvious, possible inner Truth. Ultimately you are God playing a role, and God may need to play this part to show me something or teach me something. Just as I am also God playing a role, showing you something or teaching you something.

 

This then is me applying and putting into practice the very thing I suggested to you.

 

“'Everything happens for a reason. It does not have to have a reason to happen.' So, good, you are getting clearer, that means if people suffer misfortune, it might not be their fault. Why do bad things and situations happen to people? It does not have to have a reason .... a reason can easily relate to a judgement ... like you made preciously ... they must have attracted it to themselves. Actually, by that 'philosophy' you have invited me to do what ever I want to you and with you ... as its all what you wanted and it doesnt even come from your Id / unconscious ... because you dont have one.”

 

This paragraph is a little harder for me to untangle I admit. I will try... My intention is not to try to figure out the why of any “apparent reality.” My practice, my intention, is to look beyond appearances.

 

I could never stop you from doing what you want with me. I can not control you, or force you to change and I have no desire to. My practice is to love and accept you as you are, no matter what you do or say. To be aware and conscious, observing what you present to me.

 

I am not aware of any criticism or judgment I have made. As far as I know I was very clear about when the things I have said were my opinion, or were what I am observing. I would appreciate it if you would use a specific example, taken in context.

 

You are correct. I have no subconscious. There is no part of me I can not consciously access and become aware of. At this time I believe this to be the truth not only for myself, but for all of humanity.

 

"'So the first step is to stop throwing labels on everyone. To stop calling people things like disadvantaged, homeless or poor. To stop comparing people to yourself and other people and trying to define them that way. Such a viewpoint reinforces a victim role. Do you really want to contribute to someone playing a victim role?' Typical Low of attraction BS! You want to hide and mask this ... the suffering in the world. You think it can be cured by giving it another name.”

 

Um... I am pretty sure that by saying, “The first step is to stop throwing labels on everyone...” means to get away from using labels or names in the first place. I agree, giving it another name does not solve the problem. But this is not what I recommended here.

 

What I recommended is to stop labeling and giving names period. To stop emphasizing and focusing on the exterior, the apparent reality or life experience, period. To change how you see these people, your perceptions about them, period.

 

“Should I stop using the word refugee camp, homeless, disposed, diaspora for these people because it makes you feel they are being judged ..... sorry if that offends you ... lets not put a label on them . And heavens no! lets not compare them to myself as having less and suffering more ... because what will that make of me ?”

 

Notice I have deleted your images from my posts. Why did I do that? Am I denying reality? No. The pictures emphasize and focus on the exterior, the “apparent reality” and the “life experiences.” There is no way I can contribute to the solution of happy, healthy people unless I see that in my mind's eye, or use those kinds of picture. Because that is the another possible reality that exists, and if that is the one I want to manifest, that is the one I must emphasize and focus on.

 

Here is a picture taken in India, which as you know contains the people typically referred to as the poorest in the world. I will do more good for those in this apparent reality if I see them like this, than I would if I saw them as the pictures you shared portrayed:

 

 

I have taken no offense with anything you have said. The only way you can offend me is if I choose to be offended.

 

“No ... they are all in a holiday camp and testing out a new plastic product . Feel better now ?”

 

No, that would not work, because you do not really believe that. You have to believe it first in order for your feelings and thoughts to change regarding the situation.

 

If you are unable to believe that these people can be happy, that these people could actually be out on a holiday camp, some huge spiritual or social gathering, and if how you feel depends on your belief, you will be unable to feel good. You can not get there from there.

 

Only when the belief is genuine will the feelings and thoughts be genuine.

 

You can look at such pictures and see the hopeless apparent reality or you could think about the fact that these people could actually be making the best of their circumstances, their current life experience. That they could actually be a loving community of people, who, in this situation, are in a unique place to know very clearly what they do not want, so they can focus just as cleanly on what they do want.

 

You see poverty in these pictures. I see potential.

 

"'You help to create it by criticizing, comparing, contrasting and judging people, placing them in groups, us VS them, duality, all that stuff.' Utter crap ! I help to create it by turning a blind eye to it, by accepting the injustice, by not going and doing aid work, by sitting here on my fat white arse playing on a computer and wasting money that I could have sent to help give a kid a clean drink of water. And I think that even though I have done done years of work with the sick, elderly homeless and refugees.”

 

Here I detect guilt and possible shame. Perhaps you feel you are not doing enough, or have not done enough?

 

The only reason for you to feel guilt or shame is if you did not do what you were called, compelled or drawn to do. But it sounds like you did. Even if you didn't, there is no time like right now, in this moment, to forgive yourself, love and accept yourself as you are, and then go do whatever you are called, compelled or drawn to do.

 

Addressing the symptoms of this particular disease, which as I said is a societal disease, will not cure the cause. If you give that kid a drink of water, or a hundred kids, you have helped deal with the perceived issue on the level of “apparent reality.” But you have in no way addressed the cause. You have to find the cause of why these children need this water if you want to fix what is appearing as a problem. What is causing that need? When you find that, address it. If you address the cause, the symptom goes away.

 

Better to address the cause of children needing water than giving out glasses of water. Because that, once again, is rowing upstream. That, once again, is resistance. All your doing and effort will never be enough to address the cause. You can not get there from there. There will always be another child needing another glass of water until the cause is addressed.

 

If you put even a fraction of the effort you have put into this thread into finding and addressing the causes, and if you were to get others to address it with you, you will fix, very quickly, this perceived problem. The more of you there are addressing the cause, the quicker the symptom will go away.

 

Merely looking at what you perceive to be a problem, and grabbing other people by the neck and forcing them to see it too, will not fix it. You can not address the apparent reality of homelessness and those you call mentally ill or poor by thinking of that as reality. Neither can you throw effort and money at it. People have tried that for years and the problem has only gotten worse.

 

Because as I have said, throwing effort at it validates it. It enforces it. It perpetuates it. You think of the perceived problem as something that must be attacked, or defended against or fought. You go after it like a soldier goes to war. As long as there as an enemy you will swing your sword. The sword only stops swinging when there are no more enemies, or you have worn yourself out by swinging it around so long.

 

There is a question that must be asked, and that is, “What is causing people to have these undesirable and unwanted life experiences?” Now you are on the right track. You can't fix the problem while you are focused on it. You can only fix the problem while focused on a solution. Part of the solution is finding the cause of the problem, so you can rip it out by its roots, so to speak. Chopping it off at ground level only leaves the roots to sprout new growth.

 

You may also want to get rid of this victim/warrior attitude you have. Like you are some battle scarred veteran who has been out on the battlefield, slaying the enemy, and are feeling guilty and ashamed you have not killed more of your enemies, or saved more of your comrades.

 

“What? Too hard Princess? Then put me on ignore and go back to the fur patting people that support you, they will make you feel a lot better than I will!”

 

I appreciate your offer, but I must refuse. Also I do not require others to behave in certain ways to make me feel better. If my happiness is based on how people treat me it would be very hard to be experience happiness or joy!

 

"'Even if you do not believe that we create our reality, what makes you feel better? To see someone on the street you would call disadvantaged, homeless or poor, and feel sorry for them? Or have pity on them? Or to look at this person and see God in them. See Source in them. See a better life experience for them. Spend a few moments and see them doing some sort of work they love, smiling, happy, getting a paycheck, having a roof over their head, etc.' Why cant I see god in them and acknowledge they are having a hard time and friggin help them ? ! See that old lady struggling to cross the street ... no, dont go and help her, dont call her an old lady and dont say the word 'struggling' ... just visualise her young and healthy and skipping across the road.”

 

This part makes me chuckle every time I read it, You have an excellent sense of humor!

 

I never said you couldn't do exactly that. You can go and help that old lady across the street, and at the same time you can stop seeing her as the label “little old lady” while you go help her. You can also see in your mind's eye this person, this manifestation of God, surrounded by people who love her and care for her, so that she always has someone not only to cross the street with, but to walk with. To visit with her, to listen to her stories. To spend time with her.

 

You can do more than just help her across the street. You can get to know her, you can be there for her, you can visit with her, listen to her stories. If this is what you feel called, compelled or drawn to do.

 

But at the very least you can stop seeing in your mind's eye, stop perceiving this person as some old lady, hunched over, tottering across the street, needing someone (like you perhaps?) in tights and a cape to swoop down and in a great baritone voice, with rippling chest muscles and arms as big as tree trunks, and say, “Can I help you madam?” As you slowly walk her across the street, shoving the cars out of the way as you do.

 

“The rest of your post seems to attempt to justify other subjects with this outlook. And here we get to the gist of why this Law of Attraction BS is so popular with western culture. Its a band-aid for the guilt lurking deep within our social unconscious, a way of dealing with life in the world, where those ;other spiritual beings' are living in shit while we rest on a silk pillow and philosophise (shallowly) about why they might be in that situation.”

 

Well it was not my intention to justify anything. To even say anything that needed to be qualified with a justification. Once again an example, taken in context, would be appreciated.

 

I feel no fear, guilt or shame about those you label as “disadvantaged” or “needy” or “poor” or “mentally ill” or “homeless.” If I feel called, compelled or drawn to help I will. I spend no time, not one moment, visualizing any other person living in shit. Why would I want to see God living in shit? To be honest I spend no time thinking about this subject at all. I also wonder what it has to do with the myth of the subconscious mind...

 

Do you feel fear, guilt or shame about the slaughtering going on in Africa? Or for the people in the Ukraine? Or for American soldiers fighting overseas? Maybe for a few of these, but certainly not all of them.

 

From what I can tell your life experience brought homeless people and refugees into your awarness. You acted on what came into your awarness. But you may not feel bad about American soldeirs dying overseas, for example, because that has not come into your awarness. You may not be a soldier, and probably there are no solderis in your immediate loved ones.

 

If something comes into, or is brought into, my awareness, if I feel called, compelled or drawn to do something, or if it just works out that I can do something, I will. But I will not spend my time and waste my energy inundating myself with visualizations of poor suffering people because somehow, by forcing myself to look upon what others define as “reality”, it will help the situation. You and I both know better.

 

I recall an old black and white photo from the Vietnam war, a naked girl walking down a road. Tell me how printing out something like that, and pasting it on my wall, is going to stop violence and war? Tell me how, in any way, it is going to help the situation? You can't, because you know, whether you admit it or not, that it won't.

 

“Look... imagine all sorts of good things for them... but go and do some work ladling soup or handing out blankets to 'people on the street that may need to be warm tonight' ie. homeless and hungry people. (i hope those two words didnt hurt your ears too much.)”

 

This is exactly my practice. It is not focused on any particular group. Rather I help where I am needed, where I am called, compelled or dawn. Where everything just sort of falls into place. The opportunity is there to help, and I do so. I leave the tights, and any compulsion to wear them, at home.

 

I have not worked in a soup kitchen or given out blankets. I also do not live in a city where such service is needed. So I help out, as needed, right where I am, at this moment.

 

Always remembering as I help someone that they are on their own unique path. They are playing their role. So I do not get caught up in their “apparent reality.” They must follow their path, but there is no need for me to see them in any sort of victim role, or reinforce any victim role they may be presenting to me. They may appear to me as poor, homeless or mentally ill. But I don't have to see them that way.

 

The best thing I can do is envision the best life possible for them, never criticizing or judging their current life or assuming their current life is not already the best one for them. I work with what I observe, and if what I observe seems to me to be undesirable, I can imagine something better. That has more value than any physical effort I take to help them, because that will go to the cause and address it. The physical work will only ever address the symptom.

 

“I am only doing this because you have attracted it remember. Seriously, I just had to check your profile to check your age. Dude... by now you should have got beyond this!”

 

The only person who knows my life path is me. Also age has nothing to do with experience or maturity.

 

As far as getting beyond anything, that would presuppose that whatever it is you feel I should be beyond is not worth me being at right now, in this moment. The inherent flaw in that is I am here in regards to that, right now, in this moment. I am exactly where I should be. There is absolutely nothing wrong with my current location at any level.

 

Even though I might want more desirable circumstances...

 

"How can you find a solution,

If you only see the problem?

Your seeing is problematic,

If you only see the problem."

Edited February 27, 2015 by DreamBliss

[freeform]

DreamBliss - you're obviously a creative, sensitive individual. I can see you're striving for something bigger, grander than the limitations you're stuck with. That's admirable.

 

Many people feel a sense of deep, hungry, emptiness that they need to somehow fill or satisfy. Some (many) people try to fill it with food, some fill it with sex, some with drugs, some with money, some with power, many with just busy-ness. And most people don't even realise what they're doing. They don't realise that the things that they do is an attempt to satisfy a deep longing for something that's not available at that level - it's not outside of them - that's why they're addicted to work, or looking good in front of people, or having power, or even some religious dogma.

 

Being a sensitive individual that you are, you've come closer to this empty void more consciously than most. Which creates a double bind.

 

That 'void' is actually one's 'salvation', if you will. The problem is that you need to not only come close to it, but to dive right in - which is the most frightening dive possible - it means death to who you thought you were. It's really a life or death situation - with all the charge that that involves.

 

If you just dip your toe you'll just have a stronger sense of yearning. You won't discover experientially that that void of dark emptiness is actually full of all possibilities.

 

Dipping your toe and then clambering out into mundane existence is tricky. The experience reveals to your false, self-constructed personality that it's not really real, that it's just a construct. So once the toe comes out, the personality goes into overdrive trying to rebuild itself ever stronger, ever more impenetrable. It does that by becoming certain of things, constantly gripping at anything that looks like 'truth'. It does that by making itself seem real. By creating problems and then solving them, by taking things around you and presenting them as evidence of its realness.

 

There is no truth - it's not real, it's yet again a construct of who you think you are. The false self is just a combination of things - of conditioning from your life - from what you parents are like, to how your teachers treated you, even conditioning brought in from other lives.

 

Have you noticed that there are quite a few 'gurus' that fell from grace into dubious activities such as the hoarding of wealth, seeking of power, sexual deviancy... all of this is a result of taking a dip in the void, then clambering out and having that false sense of self rebuild itself, in ever more morose ways.

 

Nervous dogs don't normally bite - they bark and growl, but not bite unless, that is, they feel trapped in a corner. The false self is like a nervous dog that's trapped in a corner. It either bites or reveals itself as not real (in effect dies). The dog will always try to bite rather than be killed.

 

So what can we do? If we yearn for the void, but jumping in means death, and slowly immersing means a very likely deviation from actual growth, how can we actually progress and become whole again!?

 

Well you're on a Daoist forum... And as it turns out, the daoists have a very clear way of slowly preparing you to enter the void, to capture the essence of it, and through an alchemical formula, use it to grow an 'immortal', pre-conditioned Self. (This is an awful overview, but it's something )

 

Yes I'm sort of saying that the LoA teachings are like the guru that fell from grace. Of course they have some truth and value. But this work fell into the trap of not having any way to deal with the false self. The self that strives to fill its deep yearning with 'stuff' whatever that stuff is. As a result it simply adds to the false self, adding new layers, whilst at the same time cleverly leading you into a labyrinth of mirrors and illusions (yes I'm picturing Bruce Lee in Enter The Dragon!) This fools you into believing that you're doing spiritual work, that you're getting closer to the divine, when in fact exactly the opposite is the truth.

 

LoA is about creating - but it misses the biggest aspect of personal growth which is focused on dis-creating. The spiritual path is, in fact 80% clearing, cleaning, purging - layer after layer after layer before you start any creating. This is because any creating before this would come from the limited, false sense of self, and anything created from this aspect can only ever be perverse (even if (or especially if) it seems pure, and fluffy and spiritual).

 

A small tip for you. Part of what makes the Daoist alchemical path so effective is that it includes the body - in fact starts with the body. I invite you to pay attention to your body more. In small ways as well as large. Pay attention to what it physically feels like to be sitting and reading this, where are your feet? How do they feel? Do you feel any tightness anywhere? You could also move your body whilst staying conscious of it - whether doing exercise or calisthenics or dance or yoga or especially any of the myriad of Daoist arts...

 

When you include your body, that nervous dog of a false self discovers that it has a friend rather than just foes. That it's not trapped in a corner all by itself.

 

So here I am, having typed this up for you. Am I being a vampire? Barking up my own branch? Trying to somehow get one over on you? Or simply inviting you to see possibilities that will hopefully expand your world rather than contract it?

Edited February 27, 2015 by freeform

[DreamBliss]

Thank you for this very well thought response. I will spend time with your words.

 

For the record I am not labeling anyone an Energy Vampire. I just read that poem and felt it related to certain individuals, that it expressed a sentiment that I wanted to express, but have not had the words. So I do not see you or anyone else as Energy Vampires. I see certain people who that poem reminds me of. Certain people that poem brings to mind. That's it.

 

Likewise I spend no time thinking about fallen gurus. As I see it we are all perfect, have forgotten our perfection, and are in the process of remembering it. Just because someone falls doesn't mean their teaching is suspect. All the teachings I read go through the crucible of my own personal experience. If there is nothing left afterward it is not a teaching I adopt.

 

It may surprise you to hear this, but I have no interest in getting closer to the divine or getting more spiritual. I may say I am growing spiritually, maybe it would be more accurate to say changing. But there is no thought of, "I will be enlightened one day!"

 

I am not closed off to that either. I am open to getting closer to the divine and becoming enlightened. If this happens I will dive right in. That is just how I am. It is how I was when I left the Christian faith. Fear does not, and will not, hold me back. I will be, and am, allowing, open and receptive. But I spend no time desiring or seeking divinity or spirituality.

 

What I desire and seek, if anything, is a better life experience for myself. If I care about anything, am passionate about anything. it is about doing the work I find to be enjoyable, fulfilling, meaningful, which currently appears to be writing. Work that I can support myself and a family with.
 

If I have any desire it is to have my own house, on my own land, and someone to share my life with. To raise children, making full use of what I have come to understand about how I was raised, so they stand a better chance of being who they are, experiencing the life they came here to experience. Free of all the beliefs, hangups and issues that I have had to struggle through. I know I can't make it easier for them, they will have their own struggles. But I can better prepare them, I can support them on their life and spiritual paths.

 

The LoA teachings will help me in those things I care about, those things that I desire and seek. The path to enlightenment will not. It will, in fact, at its ultimate state it would leave me celibate, with no desire for female companionship, a home, a family or anything else. The spiritual path culminates in a life emphasis of the spiritual at the expense of the physical.
 

I would rather enjoy the physical, because that is the form I have right now and what I came here to do, as spiritually a possible, while not seeking spirituality. Does that make any sense?

 

Physically right now I am not feeling well and very tired so I am afraid I have rambled a bit and may not have been as clear as I would like. This response doesn't address everything you said, but it's the best I can give at this moment.

 

I agree that the spiritual path is one of pruning and getting rid of stuff. I am happy to do that. I have no interest in pruning away my physical life however. There will be time for the spiritual when that is the form I take.

Edited February 27, 2015 by DreamBliss

[Michael Sternbach]

I see a number of things on this thread that I consider misconceptions regarding what has come to be known as the Law of Attraction. Possibly, we need to differentiate a little regarding which of its teachers we are referring to, for LoA is an umbrella term for the teachings of countless representatives, many of which I am not familiar with.

 

So, Nungali, you may well be right that quite a lot of what is sold as LoA is naïve and shallow.

 

However, I have read and re-read the Seth books for several years, and they represent a major influence in my spiritual biography as well  in the OP's. I consider them in agreement with much of Hermetic and Daoist literature, or with the Perennial Philosophy, albeit from an independent perspective.

 

I also read Shakti Gawain's books on visualization and the art of creative living, attended Silva Mind Control courses, watched an inspiring speech by Esther Hicks on DVD, read A Course in Miracles, and found all of that well worth my while.

 

DreamBliss, Seth is not saying that there is no unconscious. In The Nature of Personal Reality, p. xviii he states:

 

Experience is the product of the mind, the spirit, conscious thoughts and feelings, and unconscious thoughts and feelings. These together form the reality that you know.

 

But he indeed doesn't agree with the popular idea of there being a subconscious that is a repository of detrimental forces and childhood traumas, unaccessible to the conscious mind other than (at best) by lengthy and costly psycho-analysis, while playing tricks with the conscious mind and having sway over it. In truth, there are no separations in the psyche, and the conscious mind can and should become increasingly aware of its unconscious programming by way of introspection.

 

From the aforsesaid book, p. 22:

 

As you will see later, you can become more and more consciously aware, therefore bringing into your cnsciousness larger and larger portions of yourself.

 

Nungali, nowhere does Seth deny that miserable circumstances are real, notwithstanding that negative and positive are relative terms as seen from a transcendental perspective. Thus, he recommends identifying and altering the negative beliefs that are causing them - emphasizing the causes, not the symptoms. But he also says that external action and determination are often necessary in order to alter sad circumstances. This holds true on both an individual and a collective level.

 

Where would we be without the commited members of organizations like Greenpeace and Amnesty International? Without individuals like yourself, not afraid to call things as they are and devoting themselves to change them? This is the spirit of the warrior. Kudos to you for that!

 

The motivation for powerfully changing negative situations does presuppose a degree of dualism. I believe that as inhabitants of a dualistic world, we cannot completely avoid dualistic perspectives.

 

Yes, there are circumstances that cannot be altered easily. For example, for an individual born in a third world country, many possibilities available to the inhabitants of the materially priviledged part of the world may seem quite out of reach.

 

In this regard, as much as I appreciate living in one of the wealthiest countries, we should be careful not to declare material prosperity as the measure of all things. Despite cell phones, fast food, and lives so busy that the average married couple speaks with each other something like five minutes a day, a world wide survey showed that the averagely happiest people are actually living in Cambodia!

 

Not that it would be impossible for a materially underpriviledged individual to attain greater prosperity. By application of the principles of manifestation, such an individual could in fact alter their circumstances for the better, at least to a certain degree. And the more individuals would do this, the more the whole place would change. What way other than this kind of empowerment would there be for the inhabitants of poor countries to enhance their material circumstances for good?

 

Furthermore, what else is Magic than the art of effecting change by exercising the power of one's psyche? LoA basically states that everybody is a Magician unconsciously, creating their own life experience based on their thoughts and emotions. To do so consciously, in accordance with one's will, that's the key. Of course, we could debate about the adequacy of the theoretical framework and practical methods of various LoA authors as compared to more traditional authors on Magic, but there is little disagreement in basic terms.

 

Suffice it to say here that to you, as an occultist drawing inspiration from the Golden Dawn system, I would heartily recommend reading Israel Regardie's The Art of True Healing - it talks about the principles of manifestation much along the lines of contemporary authors and was actually one of the sources for Shakti Gawain's Creative Visualization.

 

freeform, I do resonate with parts of your post, but the truth it contains, from my perspective, is not at odds with an intelligent and advanced understanding of LoA.

 

As far as "decreating" and purging allegedly not being included in the latter, I could give you several quotes to the contrary from "manifestation" authors. Not least, once again, Seth in The Nature of Personal Reality, p. 17:

 

And so it is from your larger identity that you form the reality that you know. It is up to you to do this with joy and vigor, clearing your conscious mind so that the deeper knowledge of your greater identity can form joyous expressions in the world of the flesh.

[freeform]

freeform, I do resonate with parts of your post, but the truth it contains, from my perspective, is not at odds with an intelligent and advanced understanding of LoA.

 

As far as "decreating" and purging allegedly not being included in the latter, I could give you several quotes to the contrary from "manifestation" authors.

Hi - thanks, but from what I've seen - there is little more than lip service to this. Certainly the case with all of the people I've met who are into this work. I haven't seen many methods for this clearing process and I haven't met any people who're actively doing anything like that. Most are unaware of the importance of it.

 

I admit I have a rather unfavourable view of this work, and that's born from the fact that I see a lot of people who want the normal things in life - a car, a house, a wife, a child, more money - these are all the things that most people get anyway - whether they pay for conferences or not.

 

And then the heavily supported confirmation bias convinces the people that did pay for conferences to attribute their success to LoA. Not only that, but this work takes the magical aspect of life and attributes it to the least magical aspect of us - the wanting, desiring mind, further leading people away from what would actually free them. Not only profiteering, but further endarkening the very people that are brave enough to seek something greater.

Edited February 28, 2015 by freeform

[Nungali]

 

 

If you are in that situation, then physical action may be required. The problem is when you identify with the doing as the way to fix the problem. That is rowing upstream. You can not “fix” this sort of situation by throwing effort and work into it. That reinforces the reality of that which you wish to change. It creates resistance.

 

Look ... just try substituting 'fix'  with some concept of compassion.  Then you might get it. 

 

 

 

Do the work, as called, compelled or drawn. But while you do the work stop emphasizing and focusing on the exterior circumstances, the collective and individual life experiences. In other words stop getting caught up in apparent reality and calling it “reality.”

 

Why do you think I see a difference ?   Where did I insist that the 'apparent reality' was separate from 'reality' ?

 

(I will say now though that I think there there is no 'apparent reality'  ... that is 'reality' .....  and 'reality '  .   Now if you think that means I cant see a person as spirit or God , suffering or not, , that's your 'duality' being assumed onto me.

 

( I actually believe we are all part of a dream of a giant snake curled up underground sleeping. )  

 

 

 

Instead stop the criticizing, judging and labeling. Stop seeing the people as somehow lacking or less than or imperfect or suffering or hurting or whatever. These things may be happening, yes. But these things are not reality. They are apparent reality. You are witnessing life experiences. You are emphasizing the exterior apparent reality and not the interior Truth.

 

Illusory or not, they suffer.   Should I deny the poor alms in my 'dreams' ? 

 

You know, someone had this philosophical discourse with a popular 'Mullah' of mine.  It ended with someone being punshed in their  'illusory nose; and then being asked 'What hurt's then ? " 

 

 

 

 

 

I call it “apparent reality” because it is just one of many possible realities. If there is a reality of hurt, pain and suffering, then there must also exist its opposite, healing, painlessness and freedom from suffering. You can not have one without the other as this is a physical world of duality. If one extreme exists, so does its opposite.

 

Helping to alleviate suffering ... doing what one one can on the physical and other levels ...  as far as 'freedom from suffering'  better minds than mind have offered quiet clear solutions ... see below * 

 

 

 

You are emphasizing and focused on one extreme, one version of reality that these people are experiencing and that you are witnessing. You are placing all your energy there, and in that way, you contribute to the problem, not the solution. It is better to emphasize and focus on the other extreme, put energy there, and contribute to a solution.

 

Why not do both, why is the 'visualisation' better than the material action ?  I am not actually the one projecting 'duality' here. 

 

And any material action needs positive mental visualisation, inspiration, aspiration and a plan of action, in one area that was demonstrated by how the resettlement integration was managed.  You should see how some of those people live now ! 

 

Some people live better lives now because of others physical help and support. 

 

It seems to me that you, in this situation, would immediately see a woman, her arm blown off, that lost her child. A woman who is dirty, and in pain. You may go over, kneel down, stroke her head, tell her she is loved, and feel pity for her. Sorrow for her and her loss. If you did so, you would do her a disservice.

 

 [ My refugee work was not like this, it was more resettlement - although some showed me the old  (or not too ) old scars , ^ that sounds more like my hospital work ; ]

 

No ... I would not have time ...  I would be too busy stemming the blood and getting equipment ready ... 

 

or  holding the head still while the doctor drills a hole in it to stop coning , or a  tracheotomy, or ....  

 

Stroke their head  ....?    Tell them they are loved ... ?  

 

That comes later .

 

really bad example you chose ... actually, really bad ! 

 

 

 

 

Only in that space, were you to kneel down and caress her head, would you be doing so out of love, not pity. Only then would you be able to truly love and accept her as she is. Because there is no criticism, and no judgment. You are not identifying with her role. You see who she really is. If you can see who she really is, you can also see, in your mind's eye, a better life experience for her.

 

You could envision her healed, finding a loving and supportive man, the two of them having another child. You could see her happy. You could see her energetic, healthy, well. You could see her being loved and supported.

 

 

Okay ... by now she has bled out and probably passed out. 

 

 

 

From that place you could take any action to help her that you felt called, compelled or drawn to take, or serve in whatever way it falls into place for you to serve. It could be as simple as handing her some water and helping her drink it. Or it could be more complex, helping her to not identify with her role and think that she is a woman whose arm has been blown off and who lost her son.

 

So ... acknowledging she is materially thirsty in her 'unreal reality' and giving her a drink is okay ?  

 

But it is better to pat her head than stem the blood?     

 

I have no idea what you are inferring here.  ... except that you think I am caught in a dualistic 'un-compassionate ' ? 'labelling mind set, that creates bad problems and it is better to work on that level and not the physical, but the line is drawn when they get thirsty, so give them a drink ? ? ? 

 

 

“I cant wait until you move out of home and get off the titty and have to do some real manifestation to look after just yourself (let alone anyone else ) properly.”

 

If I leave the house this spring or summer, as planned, this is exactly what will happen. I look forward to it. I can not master the teachings, to where I become them, until I am living them. On my own I will be forced to live them.

 

 

What ? !  Serious ?     ... are you really living with your parents still .... that was supposed to be a smarmy dig at you ....  

 

(maybe I have started channelling stuff     )

 

 

 

You may want to spend some time looking inside yourself to see why you would use words with sexual connotations.

 

What ?  "Woman" !  ? ? ? 

 

 

 

 

I believe I detect the odor of something repressed here, likely sexually repressed. Once again I recommend Osho, “Sex Matters.”

 

Oh no, I have had heaps of sex and numerous gorgeous, beautiful, all ages and shapes and levels of maturity real and 'illusory' women 

 

Oh ... Osho is it   ( I should have known    ) ... actually some of those above mentioned women were followers of some type of 'Osho tantra' ....   boy did they have some issues about jealousy and possession  (when the 'shoe' was in the other foot), although they declared they had 'worked through all that' ..... r  i  g  h  t  !

 

 

I am known all over the place for having an open an liberal sexual attitude.

 

Even in my early days (as a lizard) on Tao Bums , some of the mod team and an 'administrator'  encouraged ( I think there was even talk of ticket sales ) me to have drugged out sex with a goat (both of us drugged that is ) ... the threads is around somewhere here ...

 

There is even a statue celebrating it in the Louvre. 

 

 

There is no subconscious programming. There is no subconscious. It is all consciousness, all the time, nothing hidden. Just the things you are aware of, and the things you are not aware of. Some thoughts get thought over and over again, become habitual thought patterns or beliefs. So if you act out your beliefs, you are acting out the thoughts you are no longer aware of that underlie that belief.

 

Way back on the first page I dissed subconscious ... what's that ?

 

Its the unconscious that all the psychology is about .    So you are UN conscious of stuff ... which means not conscious of some stuff.   Thats why you think ;  "It is all consciousness, all the time" ... because you cant be conscious of that where consciousness isnt.  The conscious can communicate with the unconscious via symbolism and image faculties, thats the 'surface' where they interact. 

 

 

Un is not, sub is under.

 

 

 

Notice I have deleted your images from my posts. Why did I do that? Am I denying reality? No. The pictures emphasize and focus on the exterior, the “apparent reality” and the “life experiences.” There is no way I can contribute to the solution of happy, healthy people unless I see that in my mind's eye, or use those kinds of picture. Because that is the another possible reality that exists, and if that is the one I want to manifest, that is the one I must emphasize and focus on.

 

Here is a picture taken in India, which as you know contains the people typically referred to as the poorest in the world. I will do more good for those in this apparent reality if I see them like this, than I would if I saw them as the pictures you shared portrayed:

october-distribution-490 small.jpg

 

I am glad they are happy. I am familiar with the poor being happier and more fulfilled than the rich... but this too is  " The pictures emphasize and focus on the exterior, the “apparent reality” and the “life experiences.”  - according to you.

 

So ?  Celebrate the good times and help in the bad if you can. Do or dont do.

 

But if you want to insist that they guy stemming the life blood needs reminded by any LoA  teachings that he should also be mindful of the persons spiritual nature, and that actually is more important .... then it reminds me of Tom Cruise saying that 'Scientologists are the one's that can really help when they drive by an accident " (my emphasis ) ... they just have such a good 'projective attitude' )

 

That they could actually be a loving community of people, who, in this situation, are in a unique place to know very clearly what they do not want, so they can focus just as cleanly on what they do want.

 

You see poverty in these pictures. I see potential.

 

I see people that need help and compassion and real help, not just 'good thought forms'. 

 

You might notice I am not denying the efficacy of a good thought form,  just the validity of those  trying to use that, and nothing else.

 

 

Here I detect guilt and possible shame. Perhaps you feel you are not doing enough, or have not done enough?

 

Yep.  Nothing wrong with feeling guilt about having an unfair advantage ... and using it. I'm just honest about it.

 

I have shame, for my culture that has a good life style at the expense of the oppressed. I cash in on that.  

 

If you have clean hands - good luck to you.  (No I dont want to hear a list of 'clean hands' excuses, I have heard them all. 

 

 

 

Addressing the symptoms of this particular disease, which as I said is a societal disease, will not cure the cause. If you give that kid a drink of water, or a hundred kids, you have helped deal with the perceived issue on the level of “apparent reality.” But you have in no way addressed the cause. You have to find the cause of why these children need this water if you want to fix what is appearing as a problem. What is causing that need?

 

Are you asking me why a child needs clean disease free water now ?  Instead of contributing to an install a pump in a well programme, I should meditate on  'what is the need for water' ? ? ?

 

No, that is So arse about .... think why they dont have the water and then fix the problem.  

 

Do you know the cause of YOU needing water ?  

 

< double face palm going on here >

 

 

 

But at the very least you can stop seeing in your mind's eye, stop perceiving this person as some old lady, hunched over, tottering across the street, needing someone (like you perhaps?) in tights and a cape to swoop down and in a great baritone voice, with rippling chest muscles and arms as big as tree trunks, and say, “Can I help you madam?” As you slowly walk her across the street, shoving the cars out of the way as you do.

 

 

You know ... you have a bit of a sense of humour yourself.

 

Yep ... that's exactly what I am like !   

 

 

 

 

Why would I want to see God living in shit? To be honest I spend no time thinking about this subject at all.

 

 

I also wonder what it has to do with the myth of the subconscious mind...

 

Simple ... I am sure Freud  would have no trouble linking those two associations you just made there. 

 

 

 I leave the tights, and any compulsion to wear them, at home.

 

sigh ... see its ,  its actually you that wear tights , wherever you do it .  I dont own any tights .

 

 

 

I have not worked in a soup kitchen or given out blankets. I also do not live in a city where such service is needed. 

 

very upper class city then.

 

You, know, when you leave 'home' and go out, maybe even into another city, and get some life experience outside of 'Prince Guatama's walled garden'  have a read of his 'biography'.  You might also get the need for 'enacting compassion' on the physical 'non real' reality.

 

All the best with that.

 

I am sure you will work it out ... one way or the other.   

 

We are spiritual beings living in a material reality / illusion, but dont think 'good vibes' alone are going stand in for real enacted service. 

[Nungali]

I see a number of things on this thread that I consider misconceptions regarding what has come to be known as the Law of Attraction. Possibly, we need to differentiate a little regarding which of its teachers we are referring to, for LoA is an umbrella term for the teachings of countless representatives, many of which I am not familiar with.

 

So, Nungali, you may well be right that quite a lot of what is sold as LoA is naïve and shallow.

 

However, I have read and re-read the Seth books for several years, and they represent a major influence in my spiritual biography as well  in the OP's. I consider them in agreement with much of Hermetic and Daoist literature, or with the Perennial Philosophy, albeit from an independent perspective.

 

Perhaps you already understood, or read my other posts on the subject. I am talking about this umbrella.

 

Of course positive thoughts are the beginnings of good actions, but good actions need reason to refine and enact the good works. 

 

I said I wasn't going to write all this each time the subject came up, and referred to my other detailed and referenced posts on the subject.

 

The fact is, the most exstant, pop - paradigm, LoA stuff around is from the biggest ever in history all time selling re-run of a book. And the film is connected - intimately, and the people named that ripped off Millions of $ from each other, and the ones that didnt care about that (as they were so rich and getting such a phenomenal daily income anyway). And what the film depicts the 'law' being used for ; jewellery,  car parking spots,  presents,  for already rich people, blah blah and so on. 

 

The rest is about endless lying, rip offs, money laundering, court cases, greed,  etc that these 'attractors' ended up enacting.

 

With references.     

 

So yes, it is a hodge-podge  a big one. But it has created this particular paradigm ... it seems perfectly suited for those that enacted their 'new found' success on in 'The Secret Film' ... and that is what was presented, and that is what is out there that attracts the vast majority that were attracted by it. 

 

Wiki - " The book has been translated into 44 languages,^[5] and has over 21 million copies in print.^[6] Thanks in big part to the appearance in the Oprah TV show, the book and film have grossed $300 million in sales, @, 2009 

 

We both know  some of the principles are very old and have some validity and it has more 'recent' connection with the 'New Thought Movement'.  But I am talking about this new beast. 

 

And I dont like a lot of the arguments they put up, or that arise by implication;,that is;

 

1. If one gets good things from putting out and attracting what one wants then ...

 

2. What was the cause of any misfortune or suffering of myself or others,  and what is the remedy ? 

 

IMO that resultant debate ( attaching the 'spiritual goodness'  principle to the first premise ) doesnt follow  ethics or  logic.

[DreamBliss]

Nungali

I had a secret hope I would have overwhelmed you with my crystal clear and very well thought out response. That I would not be seeing any sort of comback from you. I spent, literally, hours on that. Don't worry, I already suspect exactly what you might say to those words...

Sigh... I am afraid you have caught me at a bad time. Fighting a cold, flighting the miasma of misery surrounded my grandmother and my mom, and now fighting you. I am fucking wore out! What's the point anyway? Am I going to get some medal for my clever ripostes to your replies? No. Just gonna get more tired.

I am glad to see you came back with such a great sense of humor. I do mean that. I had a good chuckle reading your reply, and I almost can't want to see what you said at my other thread.

This reply will be sloppy and all over the place...

To begin with the example of the woman with her arm blown off, I believe I had said she was bandaged, implying that she had been sewn up. That she was not in a life-threatening situation. I would never recommend that you stand there, someone bleeding out, and try to heal them by visualizing them well as they lay there dying.

Now I am sure there are people in the world who can do that, but I am just as sure that if there are, there aren't very many. So the best we have is medical knowledge to save someone's physical body, and that has to come first, in a life threatening situation.

Looking at your response I wonder if you just didn't understand it? Maybe English isn't your main language? Or did you take it out of context intentionally? I will make no judgments here, just asking questions. But it seems all your responses to what I said are like this.

Next up... I do not live with my parents. I live with my grandmother, and my parents happen to live on the same property. Luxury and wealth have not, up to this moment, been my life experience. I work hard, I do what needs doing around the place or for my parents.

The sexual repression bit was referring to your use of the word tit. Also sexaul promiscuity does not mean there is no sexual repression.

The glass of water bit was referring to you mentioning selling your computer to buy a child a glass of water.

For the record I do not own or wear tights. Also I have never worn my underwear on the outside.

Lastly and most importantly, you seem to keep getting this strange idea in your head that I am proposing a course of action that is solely visulization. Utter bullshit! I am counteracting your tendancy to put action before visualization. Over and over I get the sense from what you say that doing something is the most important thing. Wayne Dyer's son got him a t-shirt. It says, "Don't just do something, stand there!"

You have to work at the level of the physcal apparent reality. If someone is dying you do whatever you can to save their physical life. BUT NEVER, EVER GET CAUGHT UP IN APPEARANCES! It is counter to some unspoken rule in society I call, "The rule of appearances" that says, in essence, how you look, what you appear to be doing, is more important that what you are actualy doing.

You have to see through that, EVEN AS YOU DO WHAT IS NEEDED, I repeat, EVEN AS YOU DO WHAT IS NEEDED, past the form to what lies beyond form. If you truly want to help the person in the life experience you perceieve to be undesirable, you have to go past the form to the formless, and FROM THERE, visualize a better form. You can substitue the word "reality" for form if you like.

So, once again using my example of a woman with her arm blown off, WHO IS NOT IN ANY WAY IN A LIFE THREATENING SITUATION! HER WOUNDS HAVE BEEN TENDED TO! You have a choice of going up to her with this sort of, "You poor thing" mentality in a reaction to the form. This is not love and it will not help the lady to heal beyond the physical. Or you can go up to her, let her know she is loved, love and accept her as she is, in that form, in that moment, and see a better sitaution for her. You may be called to serve, and as I said it could be as simple as a physical action, or it could be helping her to percieve herself and her situation differently.

I DO NOT KNOW, AND DO NOT CLAIM TO KNOW, WHICH CHOICE YOU WOULD MAKE! But based on what you have said here, it seems to me you think it is more important to address the situation of this woman purely in the dimension of form. You seem to want to disregard or ignore addressing the situation outside the dimension of form. This is what I was trying to caution you against.

The LoA teachings, as I understand them at this moment, teach me to work on this outside the dimension of form first. That is first priority. Unless of course we are talking about a situation where action is immediately required, to save a life for example. The teachings are also fairly clear about this. The point is that what I am being taught is to look at things differently than the way the majority of humanity is raised to look at things.

As I said they are not logical, they make no sense in the realm of logic. The realm of logic sees people living under a bridge, automatically, almost without thought, labels them as homeless, with all the connotations of that association, increasing the sense of seperation between you and them, enforcing their situation, which is seen, or perceived, by you to be undesirable.

Immediately logic tells you to give them food and blankets. You are so fortunate, they are so unfortunate. Continuing to enforce that reality for them. The LoA teachings give you the tools you need to do more than that. To give out the food and blankets, but to stop seeing them as unfortunate or homeless and instead have an entirely different picture in your mind of them.

Do you understand? Because if you don't, I apologize. I have tried to be as clear as I can. I will not spend any more energy or time on this.

 

I find your belief about the snake interesting. Is this something like the aboriginal people of Australia, the Rainbow Serpent and the Dreamtime?

Edited February 28, 2015 by DreamBliss

[4bsolute]

Well you cant really throw it out, per se, since it is an integral part of the Universe, but you can bring your consciousness into unconscious parts. And thus "update" it. That is what we all do, as conscious beings/creators. Maybe that is also what you meant, in essence.

[Nungali]

Nungali

 

I had a secret hope I would have overwhelmed you with my crystal clear and very well thought out response.

 

 

  ... I see you too have a sarcastic sense of humour   .... that was a joke , yeah ? 

 

 

That I would not be seeing any sort of comback from you. I spent, literally, hours on that. Don't worry, I already suspect exactly what you might say to those words...

 

Looks like what you thought you were attracting didnt manifest ? 'Secret hope' that's an interesting turn of phrase. As far as overwhelming the capped and underpants on the outside Nungali ( a thought form you created ) with a 'crystal clear' and 'well thought out response' ... if you say so .

 

 

 

Sigh... I am afraid you have caught me at a bad time. Fighting a cold, flighting the miasma of misery surrounded my grandmother and my mom, and now fighting you. I am fucking wore out! What's the point anyway? Am I going to get some medal for my clever ripostes to your replies? No. Just gonna get more tired.

 

 

Why are you manifesting this then ? Why are you attracting it? Why is a miasma of misery surrounding your home environment matriarchs ? Why are you engaging in something that makes you feel unrewarded, tired and worn out ?

 

 

 

 

 

I am glad to see you came back with such a great sense of humor. I do mean that. I had a good chuckle reading your reply, and I almost can't want to see what you said at my other thread.

 

So now , you sorta know I am going to diss you, but you seem a little excited and impatient about it.

 

I am glad you got a good chuckle; tired, unrewarded... but chuckling ... it's a start.

 

 

 

 

 

 

This reply will be sloppy and all over the place...

 

'sokay ... I am getting used to that with you

 

 

 

 

 

To begin with the example of the woman with her arm blown off, I believe I had said she was bandaged, implying that she had been sewn up. That she was not in a life-threatening situation. I would never recommend that you stand there, someone bleeding out, and try to heal them by visualizing them well as they lay there dying.

 

Now I am sure there are people in the world who can do that, but I am just as sure that if there are, there aren't very many. So the best we have is medical knowledge to save someone's physical body, and that has to come first, in a life threatening situation.

 

Sure, but what really comes first is the thought that one might want to help in that area, then one has to learn what to actually do , then you have to see if you are actually capable of it ( even some nurses dont cope well amidst the splatter, there is usually a 'type' that can wade in and take control, in a fight, in an emergency medical situation, in an an accident. ... )

 

 

 

 

The sexual repression bit was referring to your use of the word tit. Also sexaul promiscuity does not mean there is no sexual repression.

 

Oh I see you thought 'get off the tit' was me being 'sexual' ? In your situation we better not go there ! And since you have denied the subconscious ,,,,,

 

 

 

 

 

 

The glass of water bit was referring to you mentioning selling your computer to buy a child a glass of water.

 

For the record I do not own or wear tights. Also I have never worn my underwear on the outside.

 

I tried it once , its a really bad look with 1980 flares

 

 

 

 

 

Lastly and most importantly, you seem to keep getting this strange idea in your head that I am proposing a course of action that is solely visulization. Utter bullshit! I am counteracting your tendancy to put action before visualization. Over and over I get the sense from what you say that doing something is the most important thing.

 

Okay, I will try to clear it up for you again. Very clearly the mass marketed Law of Attraction teachings show people just visualising and 'magically' manifesting.

 

I dont put action before visualisation.

 

Try this little elemental formula instead ( instead of visualising first)

 

First comes fire; inspiration / aspiration via individuation ( 'Super-conscious /  Superego ^1. ) . Then it is tempered by water; feelings, hunches, 'intuition', 'emotional' consideration, 'sleep on it' ( the Unconscious ^2. ) . next comes air; thoughts, reason, logic, mentation, ways of working out a plan and how to put it into action, interaction with the Unconscious { via 'intuition' and massed and stored information / experience } ( the Conscious ) . Then Earth ... actually going about things physically and DO ing something relevant and effective about it.

 

It can all operate in an instant ... or take some time to work out , depends on the situation.

 

You can see that physical action 'actually' comes last . Visualisation is a mid process it is , or should be using the imaginative faculties and result in a workable solution. If you are not earthing and grounding your visualisations, you are letting them just float off into the air and hoping they can find their own way somehow to effect change.

 

If your home discomforts dont get fixed by your Law of Attraction practices (and seriously, if you want to change this situation by LoA visualisation , why havent you done that ... if it works ? ... you are saying you have to 'get away' from there to be able to make the changes properly, but according to your theories, you should be able to change it where you are.

 

If you cant get away ( well, I know thats silly, of course you can ... but you might feel you cant ) at some stage, and your philosophy and mode of applying energies doesnt seem to be fixing the situation, maybe try my suggested 4 phase approach above.!>

 

 

 

 

 

You have to work at the level of the physcal apparent reality. If someone is dying you do whatever you can to save their physical life. BUT NEVER, EVER GET CAUGHT UP IN APPEARANCES! It is counter to some unspoken rule in society I call, "The rule of appearances" that says, in essence, how you look, what you appear to be doing, is more important that what you are actualy doing.

 

You have to see through that, EVEN AS YOU DO WHAT IS NEEDED, I repeat, EVEN AS YOU DO WHAT IS NEEDED, past the form to what lies beyond form. If you truly want to help the person in the life experience you perceieve to be undesirable, you have to go past the form to the formless, and FROM THERE, visualize a better form. You can substitue the word "reality" for form if you like.

 

see mine above ^

 

 

 

 

So, once again using my example of a woman with her arm blown off, WHO IS NOT IN ANY WAY IN A LIFE THREATENING SITUATION! HER WOUNDS HAVE BEEN TENDED TO! You have a choice of going up to her with this sort of, "You poor thing" mentality in a reaction to the form. This is not love and it will not help the lady to heal beyond the physical. Or you can go up to her, let her know she is loved, love and accept her as she is, in that form, in that moment, and see a better sitaution for her. You may be called to serve, and as I said it could be as simple as a physical action, or it could be helping her to percieve herself and her situation differently.

 

I DO NOT KNOW, AND DO NOT CLAIM TO KNOW, WHICH CHOICE YOU WOULD MAKE! But based on what you have said here, it seems to me you think it is more important to address the situation of this woman purely in the dimension of form. You seem to want to disregard or ignore addressing the situation outside the dimension of form. This is what I was trying to caution you against.

 

I got that looong ago. I found what is good for that is working in the geriatric ward ( which I also did on and off for 7 years).

 

Yep, they are smelly old sick confused people. yep I might have to get up in the cold at 5:30 am in winter and have a shower with the freezing southerly wind blowing through the window (because , not only were the windows in the 'bathrooms' broken, they had been broken for so long the wooden window frames were rotted out and gone, just a gaping square hole in the inner and outer wall ... sorry ... diversion there ... memories of the good old days! ) and get them out of pissy and other delightful messy beds, and start the washing showering and shaving.

 

They arent in an emergency situation. I will add that I was often disgusted by the treatment they got and other's attitudes about them. Yes I can see the spirit in their eyes, their life stories, their need for a little warm human contact and compassion and empathy. Some of them were so fascinating and amazing, I spent as much time as I could getting to know them and their stories, taking a diversion through the garden slowly and talking about the plants, the birds and the sky (instead of making them wait in an interior queue for an x-ray or something )

 

I helped look after one guy that had been to 3 wars ( Boar, WWI & WW II ) another that got off a boat in Sydney harbour, hopped up on a tea chest, waved a 10 pound note in the air and said " My name is William Carpenter, I am an honest bloke and a good worker, I got my 0 pounds and am looking for a wife. Who will give me a go?" A woman came out of the amused crowd and said 'I will". They got married, moved out on to land with supplies, established and built a farm, had 3 kids and lived together for over 50 years and 'never had an argument or harsh words to each other' ... he told me this story as we sat at night in the solarium looking at the stars. I went to make us a cuppa, when I got back he was dead.

 

I have written quiet a few of their stories down, to preserve them. yes I have seen people not give a shit, and try to only take care of the physical side and them bitch about 'the old bastards' in the staff room

 

If you think I lack compassion and understanding about the things people need other than the physical ... you are barking up the wrong tree little fox.

 

 

 

As I said they are not logical, they make no sense in the realm of logic. The realm of logic sees people living under a bridge, automatically, almost without thought, labels them as homeless, with all the connotations of that association, increasing the sense of seperation between you and them, enforcing their situation, which is seen, or perceived, by you to be undesirable.

 

No. If they are under a bridge they are under a bridge ( here its probably the local teenagers punching cones ) if they are living under a bridge, that's where they are living and they are homeless (unless under the bridge is the 'home' ).

 

You seem to not want to accept or look at certain things. Or change them so they are more comfortable to you. I am not surprised you focus on and project on to me this separation , I am not separate from them. I have sat down in the dirt and lived and talked and slept and shared with them. Just at the back of Brooklyn (north of Sydney) picnic area is a camp of 'old' and 'homeless' people. I was amazed to find it there (I saw a bit of blue tarp through the bushes and climbed up into the rocks to investigate ) the old guy living under tarps and a rock overhang invited me 'in', he offered me a cuppa so I sat and talked with him. He offered me lunch (which he gets from picnickers throw aways out of the bins ... just the nice wrapped up stuff.

 

That's just how I am ... I would rather do something .... you carry on developing your mental ,non separation visualising exercises though. I hope it helps you to eventuate it in some sort of follow on action.

 

 

 

 

Immediately logic tells you to give them food and blankets. You are so fortunate, they are so unfortunate.

 

He had blankets ... he probably would have shared some if I wanted to spend the night there. Its not that hard .... I have more you have less, if we are interacting the balance should be automatic like osmosis.

 

 

 

 

 

Do you understand? Because if you don't, I apologize. I have tried to be as clear as I can. I will not spend any more energy or time on this.

 

You said that waaaaaay back, you were going to leave and not come back, you had enough .....

 

they always come back though

 

 

 

 

 

I find your belief about the snake interesting. Is this something like the aboriginal people of Australia, the Rainbow Serpent and the Dreamtime?

 

 

 

It relates to the 'unconscious', since you deny that in yourself, you would have little chance of comprehending it.

 

 

I hope your cold gets better soon ... have you tried visualising it away ?

 

No, serious ... give it a try, imagine yourself cold free and healthy, if you do that , I guarantee (free of charge) that it will be gone in 10 days .!>

Edited February 28, 2015 by Nungali

[Nungali]

you can bring your consciousness into unconscious parts. 

 

Then they are no longer unconscious .

 

(why is this such a hard concept to get ? )

 

I suspect it has to do with  ( what I neglected to add above - the notes );

 

1.  'Superego' 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Id,_ego_and_super-ego

 

 

 

and 

 

 

2.  " The subconscious is commonly encountered as a replacement for the unconscious mind and therefore, laypersons commonly assume that the subconscious is a psychoanalytic term; it is not. Sigmund Freud explicitly argues:

 

“

 

 

"If someone talks of subconsciousness, I cannot tell whether he means the term topographically – to indicate something lying in the mind beneath consciousness – or qualitatively – to indicate another consciousness, a subterranean one, as it were. He is probably not clear about any of it. The only trustworthy antithesis is between conscious and unconscious "

 

 

 

 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subconscious

 

Unconscious : " Empirical evidence suggests that unconscious phenomena include repressed feelings, automatic skills, subliminal perceptions, thoughts, habits, and automatic reactions,^[1] and possibly also complexes, hidden phobias and desires. In psychoanalytic theory, unconscious processes are understood to be expressed in dreams in a symbolical form, as well as in slips of the tongue and jokes. Thus the unconscious mind can be seen as the source of dreams and automatic thoughts (those that appear without any apparent cause), the repository of forgotten memories (that may still be accessible to consciousness at some later time), and the locus of implicit knowledge (the things that we have learned so well that we do them without thinking).'

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unconscious_mind

 

Nowadays there seems little distinction in pop cultural usages of the words and superego functions seem unknown ? 

Edited February 28, 2015 by Nungali

[Yasjua]

Man's fivefold body (physical etc.) has potential powers beyond our wildest dreams. Not only is the entire universe reflected in man, but also the power to control the universe is waiting to be used by him. The wise man is not anxious to use such powers, except when the situation calls for them. He finds the abilities and skills of the human personality quite adequate for the business of daily living. Some of the powers can be developed by specialised training, but the man who flaunts such powers is still in bondage. The wise man counts nothing as his own. When at some time and place some miracle is attributed to some person, he will not establish any causal link between events and people, nor will he allow any conclusions to be drawn. All happened as it happened because it had to happen everything happens as it does, because the universe is as it is.

 

In Zen there's this important concept of the three-fold path. We begin by living ordinary lives. Our childhood consciousness is susceptible to every and any influence, biological or social, and we construct the worldview that we construct - no other way to put it.

 

Then we enter the void, so to speak. Mountains are no longer mountains.

 

This is where most Zen students will get stuck, and it's the job of the master to slap them out of their trance.

 

They return to the marketplace. Mountains are mountains again.

 

The above quote is from Nisargadatta Maharaj. The path I followed was laid out by him, and it's an extreme path that immediately demands total and unfettered commitment to the dissolution of your false mind. Everything has to go, all at once.

 

For whatever reason, that made sense to me, and I followed that path. Deep I went. And I used the LoA as a sort of reassurance that things would basically just work out, and my god, they certaintly did. I was a fucking magnet for blessings. I did 1/1000th of what ordinary people do to maintain their sense of security and structure in their lives and received just as much if not more of it than anyone around me. And then...

 

If you just dip your toe you'll just have a stronger sense of yearning. You won't discover experientially that that void of dark emptiness is actually full of all possibilities.

 

Dipping your toe and then clambering out into mundane existence is tricky. The experience reveals to your false, self-constructed personality that it's not really real, that it's just a construct. So once the toe comes out, the personality goes into overdrive trying to rebuild itself ever stronger, ever more impenetrable.

 

I started coming out. I was up to my neck in the void, and I kid you not, my next task was to just completely surrender. Simple as that. I was synchronistically given $1500 dollars and basically told to jump off the cliff of convention forever. In concrete terms that meant to put a backpack on my back and fuck off into the void, with no structure or life path ahead of me or behind me anymore. Just to live in endless bliss.

 

lol...

 

I failed. And that's when I started wading back into the conventional world.

 

That first quote... it says the realized man does not need the powers he is given, and does not rely on the Universe to take care of things for him. The powers of personality, as he says, are perfectly adequate for dealing with life, and anything beyond that is not sought after. Only in extreme or emergency situations are those forces of spirit called upon. Your situation is extreme, mate. There's no questioning that. You're going through a hell of a mental and energetic transformation. At least it sounds that way. So by all means, call upon, test, and use those powers. But ultimately, they won't give you what you're looking for. You are ultimately the destination of your journey. And that won't make any sense until it's concretely obvious that you're fine the way you are and that nothing need change, within or without.

 

I listened to one of Andrew Nugent-Head's commentarys on the Tao Te Ching. Apparently Lao Tzu took this pretty controversial stance for his era. He basically said, "the Heavens don't determine my destiny. I determine my destiny." BAM. That's the bullet that vaporizes all superstition and merges Heaven and Earth in Man.

 

Life is profoundly, ordinarily, simple and satisfying on the level of pure convention - somehow! Don't ask me how that works out, but the return journey from near total ego-annihilation to conventional life has, for me, actually been pretty great. I have no doubt that I could access extraordinary states of consciousness and their accompanying powers, but I really don't need them. It's perfectly adequate for me to have working legs, a voice to communicate my needs with, and the ability to relate to and move through the world with the billions of others who are here.

 

Good luck again on your journey

[Michael Sternbach]

Hi - thanks, but from what I've seen - there is little more than lip service to this. Certainly the case with all of the people I've met who are into this work. I haven't seen many methods for this clearing process and I haven't met any people who're actively doing anything like that. Most are unaware of the importance of it.

 

Seth's The Nature of Personal Reality (one of the OP's references) emphasizes clearing of the mind from detrimental beliefs and emotions throughout its text and provides several methods to that end. So does also Shakti Gawain's Creative Visualization that I mentioned above.

 

I think what you have encountered so far are rather superficial representatives of LoA (and I have little doubt that there are plenty of them).

 

I admit I have a rather unfavourable view of this work, and that's born from the fact that I see a lot of people who want the normal things in life - a car, a house, a wife, a child, more money - these are all the things that most people get anyway - whether they pay for conferences or not.

 

And then the heavily supported confirmation bias convinces the people that did pay for conferences to attribute their success to LoA. Not only that, but this work takes the magical aspect of life and attributes it to the least magical aspect of us - the wanting, desiring mind, further leading people away from what would actually free them. Not only profiteering, but further endarkening the very people that are brave enough to seek something greater.

 

We may differ in our understanding of what a spiritual way is (and certainly there is more than one). There are lots of people seeking detachment from the material world. My understanding, however, is that I am a manifestation of my soul in physical reality, and I want to manifest it to its (my) full potential; at once materializing spirit and spiritualizing matter, so to speak. Prosperity and other things that you mention can be a natural result of that.

 

Aristotle's ideal sage was wise, wealthy, and healthy.

 

Likewise, Chuang Tzu says that the sage has a lot of money at his disposal and doesn't even know where it comes from.

[Yasjua]

Likewise, Chuang Tzu says that the sage has a lot of money at his disposal and doesn't even know where it comes from.

 

Where does he say that? Quote? Context?

[Michael Sternbach]

Perhaps you already understood, or read my other posts on the subject. I am talking about this umbrella.

 

Of course positive thoughts are the beginnings of good actions, but good actions need reason to refine and enact the good works.

 

I said I wasn't going to write all this each time the subject came up, and referred to my other detailed and referenced posts on the subject.

 

The fact is, the most exstant, pop - paradigm, LoA stuff around is from the biggest ever in history all time selling re-run of a book. And the film is connected - intimately, and the people named that ripped off Millions of $ from each other, and the ones that didnt care about that (as they were so rich and getting such a phenomenal daily income anyway). And what the film depicts the 'law' being used for ; jewellery, car parking spots, presents, for already rich people, blah blah and so on.

 

The rest is about endless lying, rip offs, money laundering, court cases, greed, etc that these 'attractors' ended up enacting.

 

With references.

 

So yes, it is a hodge-podge a big one. But it has created this particular paradigm ... it seems perfectly suited for those that enacted their 'new found' success on in 'The Secret Film' ... and that is what was presented, and that is what is out there that attracts the vast majority that were attracted by it.

 

Wiki - " The book has been translated into 44 languages,^[5] and has over 21 million copies in print.^[6] Thanks in big part to the appearance in the Oprah TV show, the book and film have grossed $300 million in sales, @, 2009

 

We both know some of the principles are very old and have some validity and it has more 'recent' connection with the 'New Thought Movement'. But I am talking about this new beast.

 

And I dont like a lot of the arguments they put up, or that arise by implication;,that is;

 

1. If one gets good things from putting out and attracting what one wants then ...

 

2. What was the cause of any misfortune or suffering of myself or others, and what is the remedy ?

 

IMO that resultant debate ( attaching the 'spiritual goodness' principle to the first premise ) doesnt follow ethics or logic.

I watched The Secret long ago, soon after it was published, but I don't remember it very well. I found it rather basic, anyway.

 

But the OP's references are:

• Jane Roberts/Seth - in particular, The Nature of Personal Reality. Now, that is an interesting book. Psychologically and philosophically very sophisticated. In fact so sophisticated that, when a patient of mine once tried to read it on my recommendation, it went right over her head. I am convinced that you could make sense out of it, though. If you read it and then still want to debate about it with me, be my guest...
• Esther Hicks/Abraham. I am not really familiar with them, other than having watched a speech as I mentioned above. That one did have some good thoughts in it, and I remember it better than The Secret, anyway.

Edited March 1, 2015 by Michael Sternbach

[Michael Sternbach]

Where does he say that? Quote? Context?

 

I found it in a German translation that I don't have access to at the moment. I was trying my best to locate the quote with the help of Google before I posted what you are referring to, but to no avail. If somebody familiar with Chuang Tzu could help me out here, I would really appreciate it.

 

It's in a chapter describing how everything comes to the sage effortlessly, anyway, due to his spontaneous way of life (it also says: "He eats when he is hungry").

Edited March 1, 2015 by Michael Sternbach