Working with Destiny

[Taoist Texts]

Zhuangzi: - Fa (return) Ming (destiny)

 

聖人達綢繆，周盡一體矣，而不知其然，性也。復命搖作而以天為師，人則從而命之也。憂乎知而所行恆無幾時，其有止也若之何？

 

 

Tr. Burton

The sage penetrates bafflement and complication, rounding all into a single body, yet he does not know why - it is his inborn nature. He returns to fate

 

 

 

This relevant quote kindly provided by Dawei is yet another example of how the ancient Chinese concepts are mistranslated and misunderstood, even by the alleged experts, so the below analysis is for your, oh you merry gentlemen, good pleasure.

 

Fate is defined as:

 

Destiny or Fate is a predetermined course of events

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destiny

 

Example: ‘I wanted to have a tuna sandwich but there was only ham left in the fridge, so it was my unavoidable fate to have ham sandwich” . That makes sense.

 

Now, if I say ‘it was my fate to have ham but I went ahead and had tuna anyway’ that would be an erroneous and meaningless usage of the word fate, rendering the overall statement meaningless.

 

Either you can not deviate from fate and consequently can not return to it, OR, there is no fate in any meaningful sense of the word (which makes “returning to it” meaningless as well).

 

Therefore ‘returning to fate’ is a meaningless statement, arising from a literal (mis)translation. But what does 復命 fù-mìng mean in reality?

 

Turns out it is a technical bureaucratic term in ancient China:

 

复命

fù mìnɡ

[report on completion of mission]

http://cidian.xpcha.com/7a4gd6q5sn2.html

 

Or, more precisely it is to ‘return the mandate’ as in ‘the emperor hands his minister a specific mandate (an order written on silk) to accomplish a certain mission. On accomplishing it, the minister reports back and hands the mandate back to the emperor’

 

In proto-Taoist lore this term ‘to return the mandate’ came to be used in a sense of ‘rejecting the external impulses (orders)’. However this expression is far from being a part of the key terminology, since it is used exactly once in ZZ and exactly once in TTC, which is absolutely insufficient to establish a frame of references

 

《道德經 - Dao De Jing》歸根曰靜，是謂復命。復命曰常

 

TTC ‘Return to the root is calm, it is called ‘rejecting the orders’, it is constancy’

 

Think about it for a moment: if you take 復命 to be ‘returning to fate’ meaning ‘starting obeying fate again’ how that would be calm or constancy? It makes no sense. Doing (again) whatever fate orders you to do is no calm nor constancy.

On the other hand, if I receive orders but choose and am able to reject them, then I will stay in calm. That makes sense.

 

Same with ZZ

 

《莊子 - Zhuangzi》復命搖作而以天為師，人則從而命之也。

 

ZZ. “(the sage) rejects orders and act with only Heaven as his teacher (meaning that he is spontaneous just as Heaven is, not obeying anyone’s orders) but the commoners follow the fate’. This makes sense, the official translation above – does not.

 

Therefore 復命 does not mean ‘return to fate’. It means the exact opposite ‘reject fate’

 

In conclusion, I would like to summarize a take-away lesson from this analysis: “when you ponder an expert opinion on a concept in an ancient text, please be aware that there is an excellent chance of said opinion be the exact opposite of what the text meant to say”.

 

[Marblehead]

Nice. But then, I don't hold to the concepts of fate/destiny anyhow so I guess I will call it support for my view.

[Daeluin]

When I was attempting to translate 復命 online, the only choice in the list that really made sense to me for 復 was "turning over." Not as in turning in, but turning over the situation. I can see this as a type of transcendence. When one "turns over" the mandate, one is done with the mission, has transcended it. When one returns to the root, one "turns over" the orders, transcending their operation. The sage "turns over" fate.

 

I'm no translator, but I like the common theme here of flipping, transcending, overcoming, up-ending, overturning, getting to the other side of, which all seem to work identically in these 3 contexts, as well as the idea of transforming the post-celestial into the pre-celestial.

 

In this perspective I don't think rejection is the best way to think about it. One overcomes the burden of the mission by accomplishing it. Thus one gets to the other side of the burden, turning it over, and it is no longer a burden but a reward. So perhaps this concept isn't (or wasn't originally) primarily about whether or not the mandate is returned (it might be returned in failure too), but whether or not one is able to accomplish the mission and turn around their fate. In older times failing the mission might cost one their life, so this emphasis might make sense. Thus in the same context one overturns the rules of heaven (fate) not by rejecting them, but by besting them at their own game and transcending it.

 

Thanks very much for your post TT, this new context really helps inform these old texts, at least for me.

Edited January 30, 2015 by Daeluin

[opendao]

I'm no translator, but I like the common theme here of flipping, transcending, overcoming, up-ending, overturning, getting to the other side of, which all seem to work identically in these 3 contexts, as well as the idea of transforming the post-celestial into the pre-celestial.

 

just to think about: hexagram 復

[Silent Answers]

Anything that Dao is, is Dao, and therefore affects Dao. The same as your thoughts serve to dictate our actions, or lack of. There is design and destiny all around on every scale, but there's also a bit of leeway to allow for unexpected seemingly random events, which in many cases produce amazing results. Other than this leeway, pretty much every event in our lives has been served up for us to make a choice. Either choice is within our destiny, however, some may retard our journey, some may advance it and some may bring it to an end.

 

Comparing it to a role playing video game pretty much sums it up for me. The game has certain goals and a story line, which you generally follow...in between there are often side quests that are optional, and may grant us some special insight. In the end though, you have to come back to the story which lays out the game's main point. You might do it right first time, or you might have to keep repeating a level boss / an issue that must be dealt with. In this respect, there is both freedom of choice and an ultimate destiny path for your current character within the game of Dao.

[Daeluin]

just to think about: hexagram 復

 

Ah, of course. How incredibly synchronistic and fitting. Hexagram 24 ䷗, "Return." When yin culminates yang returns. And yet the symbolism is much more than just returning. Even as when Yang culminates and Yin returns, that tiny bit of yin has the potential to topple over all the other Yangs above it. The same is true for the tiny bit of Yang with the potential to overcome the all of the Yins above it. All of these Yin lines are seemingly dominant, but earth is receptive, and the Yang line is in the position of Thunderous force. Many translations name the hexagram "Return" while also referring to it as "the turning point."

 

Stephen Karcher's Total I Ching defines the character as:

 

Return, Fu: go back, turn back, come back; return to the starting point; resurgence, renaissance, rebirth; renew, renovate, restore; again, anew; the beginning of a new time; turn from the city to the countryside; recover, take back, call back spirit of deceased; return of the ancient past and the time of the great sages. The old character shows footsteps leaving the city.

 

I wish I had my Ritsema and Rabbadini here, curious what they say.

 

The essence I'm getting is one of undertaking a journey for purposes of rebirth and turning around a situation. Perhaps returning to truth, or returning to one's self anew. Even though on a superficial level it concerns returning, clearly there is a much deeper context here at the heart of how one returns, or, revives. It would seem the character is concerned more with the journey itself, not returning from the journey. The footsteps are leaving the city, not returning to it. Karcher adds that in later characters the element for 'road' was added.

 

Fascinatingly, Karcher adds that during the winter solstice when this energy is in operation the early rulers would close the frontiers and markets, that merchants and sojourners would not move, so as to nurture this returning energy within the people and country during time when everything is still and the energy is hard to sense, even though it is ripe with potential. This is the time of the western celebrations of christmas and new years, during which people exploit the yin stillness to spend their yang energy doing whatever they want without resistance from the environment. And yet if people would preserve their inner yang an connect to the stillness of the environment, they could instead harness this strong vital force with the potential to revive them. I love the paradox encoded here of returning by stopping, or returning by going away from where one might desire to go. So rich.

Edited January 30, 2015 by Daeluin

[dust]

This relevant quote kindly provided by Dawei is yet another example of how the ancient Chinese concepts are mistranslated and misunderstood, even by the alleged experts, so the below analysis is for your, oh you merry gentlemen, good pleasure.

 

Agreed that Watson's translation isn't great here.

 

 

Turns out it is a technical bureaucratic term in ancient China:

 

复命

fù mìnɡ

[report on completion of mission]

http://cidian.xpcha.com/7a4gd6q5sn2.html

 

Or, more precisely it is to ‘return the mandate’ as in ‘the emperor hands his minister a specific mandate (an order written on silk) to accomplish a certain mission. On accomplishing it, the minister reports back and hands the mandate back to the emperor’

 

In proto-Taoist lore this term ‘to return the mandate’ came to be used in a sense of ‘rejecting the external impulses (orders)’. However this expression is far from being a part of the key terminology, since it is used exactly once in ZZ and exactly once in TTC, which is absolutely insufficient to establish a frame of references

 

I hope you're not ignoring the section on that page that defines 复命, in Taoist terms, as "returning to (sb's) original condition" !!

 

Secondly, 復命 does appear in Analects basically as you define it (reporting to a senior)... but if we're to play with the idea that this is also what it means in Taoism, we should look at how early this term came to be used in Taoist texts..

 

And... regarding the LZ and ZZ chapters you list, we must also note some things:

 

 

 

《道德經 - Dao De Jing》歸根曰靜，是謂復命。復命曰常

 

TTC ‘Return to the root is calm, it is called ‘rejecting the orders’, it is constancy’

 

Think about it for a moment: if you take 復命 to be ‘returning to fate’ meaning ‘starting obeying fate again’ how that would be calm or constancy? It makes no sense. Doing (again) whatever fate orders you to do is no calm nor constancy.

On the other hand, if I receive orders but choose and am able to reject them, then I will stay in calm. That makes sense.

 

The second half of ch.16 doesn't exist in the Guodian. I would suggest it was one of the late additions to the DDJ, but even allowing that the GD writers just left it out on purpose, the text of first half of the GD chapter is also very different from the later versions. So I think it's quite possible that the term 復命 was never in the Laozi at all to begin with.

 

 

《莊子 - Zhuangzi》復命搖作而以天為師，人則從而命之也。

 

ZZ. “(the sage) rejects orders and act with only Heaven as his teacher (meaning that he is spontaneous just as Heaven is, not obeying anyone’s orders) but the commoners follow the fate’. This makes sense, the official translation above – does not.

 

Therefore 復命 does not mean ‘return to fate’. It means the exact opposite ‘reject fate’

 

Again, this being from the Miscellaneous Chapters, I'd very much doubt it's "authenticity" (as something written by Zhuang Zhou himself) as a later addition.

 

 

 

Either way, we have no evidence that the term 復命 existed in these texts, or Taoist lore generally, prior to the MWD (unless we have other evidence).

 

However, if we take the 2 received chapters at face value, in context, after all that... I do agree with your basic translation of ZZ

[dust]

In this perspective I don't think rejection is the best way to think about it. One overcomes the burden of the mission by accomplishing it. Thus one gets to the other side of the burden, turning it over, and it is no longer a burden but a reward. So perhaps this concept isn't (or wasn't originally) primarily about whether or not the mandate is returned (it might be returned in failure too), but whether or not one is able to accomplish the mission and turn around their fate. In older times failing the mission might cost one their life, so this emphasis might make sense. Thus in the same context one overturns the rules of heaven (fate) not by rejecting them, but by besting them at their own game and transcending it.

 

Though I agree with the thrust of TT's comment, and the meaning behind his translation, left to my own devices I wouldn't actually translate the ZZ section precisely as he did.

 

Words can have many meanings, and ZZ is well known for playing with them. If we accept that this is authentic ZZ, then...

 

復 = (originally) leave and return to the city = return = reply = begin again = again = repeatedly

 

命 = (oiginally) give orders = regulations = limit // life = destiny = fate

 

and knowing what we do of prior use of the term 復命 itself (i.e. in Analects etc),

 

復命 could potentially mean,

"repeating / returning to life (one's nature)" (traditionally accepted meaning in DDJ & ZZ ?)

"repeating / returning to one's fate"

"returning one's orders" (responding to a superior) (meaning in Analects)

 

We should also note the character 摇, meaning to wave or shake. I think it's better read together: 復命搖作

[dawei]

Though I agree with the thrust of TT's comment, and the meaning behind his translation, left to my own devices I wouldn't actually translate the ZZ section precisely as he did.

 

If we take fate as determinism... then TT means to 'reject determinism'.... which would be an allowable ZZ idea as no idea should be given a higher idea.

 

Meaning: An invocation to return or reject should both be accepted (and rejected).

 

In the end analysis... if we do this... IMO... we're only left with Fate... So it is almost a none issue

[Marblehead]

So it is almost a none issue

Except when I enter the conversation.

 

Thing is, if one does not "return" then there was no fate or destiny.

 

Of the translations I have of Chuang Tzu I can't recall him specifically suggesting fate or destiny. Sure, he did question the concepts but I can't recall him presenting his own "answer" to the question.

[Daeluin]

Thing is, if one does not "return" then there was no fate or destiny.

 

Perhaps it may seem like that. If we don't like what our parents tell us perhaps we'll run away and never speak to them again. Funny though how later in life we might not like what our partner tells us and we leave them too, and how that stupid boss just has too many expectations. Screw 'em all, there will always be more people to make friends with, more people to partner with, more career opportunities.

 

And our circle of friends starts to become filled with people who laugh at others and don't care about anything beneath the surface and won't bother us when we don't want them too. All that matters is the stupid shit like what's on TV or what scandalous thing that celebrity did, and man those religious nuts, I tell ya! At that point we don't need to run away from anything because the buffer of superficial noise is so large that it will easily cover up anything true, and we laugh at it all anyway so who cares?

 

And then in our next life our kids abandon us, but hey, not like that means anything. Meanwhile the politicians capitalize on our desire to avoid truth and we're all getting sick but boy those painkillers whew! Gonna tell me I can't eat steak, well that's a good one! And so on, as the macabre dance continues on until all the resources that support it are consumed.

 

Cancer cells don't like destiny either.

[Marblehead]

 

Cancer cells don't like destiny either.

WoW! You got some shit off your mind with that post.

 

But life goes on, with or without us.

 

I think I have expressed myself well regarding all that you spoke of so no need for repeating myself.

 

So my destiny is to one day die. Perhaps this too can be avoided. (I'm not really serious here.)

[Daeluin]

Does a little role playing mean I don't think all vinegar tastes sweet? I'm only saying one can walk away from themselves but it doesn't disconnect them from fate, but adds new layers to fate while obscuring the origin.

 

You are painting a picture where one can assume freedom in ignorance. I'm painting a picture to show ignorance is not the freedom it assumes.

 

Yes life goes on, but we're always a part of it in some way. Endings are only new beginnings as life responds to death. Until we return we will continue on in this dance in some fashion.

Edited February 4, 2015 by Daeluin

[Marblehead]

Does a little role playing mean I don't think all vinegar tastes sweet?

Ah, the vinegar tasters. Not too bitter, not too sweet, just right. Goldilocks.

 

I'm only saying one can walk away from themselves but it doesn't disconnect them from fate, but adds new layers to fate while obscuring the origin.

I'm going to disagree here. One can never walk away from themself. I am the one person I must live with for ever. I better be loving myself.

 

 

You are painting a picture where one can assume freedom in ignorance. I'm painting a picture to show ignorance is not the freedom it assumes.

Oh, sure, I do sometimes try to paint pictures with my words. How does it go? Ignorance is bliss? Not really true, you know. Be ignorant and you will be taken advantage of.

 

I propose: Wisdom is freedom.

 

Yes life goes on, but we're always a part of it in some way. Endings are only new beginnings as life responds to death. Until we return we will continue on in this dance in some fashion.

Hehehe. I love it when you talk Chuang Tzuage.

 

Does that sound right? I think not.

[Daeluin]

Ah, the vinegar tasters. Not too bitter, not too sweet, just right. Goldilocks.

 

Goldilocks was selective.

 

I'm going to disagree here. One can never walk away from themself. I am the one person I must live with for ever. I better be loving myself.

 

Exactly.

[Marblehead]

Goldilocks was selective.

So am I.

[Taoist Texts]

http://www.nature.com/neuro/journal/v17/n1/full/nn.3594.html

 

Our findings provide a framework for addressing how environmental information may be inherited transgenerationally at behavioral, neuroanatomical and epigenetic levels.

[Flolfolil]

...

Edited March 5, 2015 by Flolfolil

[Michael Sternbach]

While it is true that genetic, cultural, educational and environmental influences all contribute to shaping our destiny, as a (Western style) astrologer I am impressed, time after time, how all these only serve to fulfill the celestial pattern that we are born under. This pattern is the blueprint of our individuality, the macrocosm becoming microcosm.

 

However, to what extent and on what levels we manage to express that pattern in the terrestrial realm, and what destiny we consequently experience, this is not predestined. This is where our free will, the wisdom we attain, the cultivation of our personality come into play. There are many avenues that can be taken or neglected - due to the so called Sternbach uncertainty relation.

[Marblehead]

http://www.nature.com/neuro/journal/v17/n1/full/nn.3594.html

 

Our findings provide a framework for addressing how environmental information may be inherited transgenerationally at behavioral, neuroanatomical and epigenetic levels.

I would only question whether this is happening spiritually, genetically, unconsciously, or consciously.

[Marblehead]

While it is true that ...

I "Like"d the post but then I don't believe in destiny so I suppose my "Like" holds no significance.

[Daeluin]

While it is true that genetic, cultural, educational and environmental influences all contribute to shaping our destiny, as a (Western style) astrologer I am impressed, time after time, how all these only serve to fulfill the celestial pattern that we are born under. This pattern is the blueprint of our individuality, the macrocosm becoming microcosm.

 

Yes! But further, this pattern isn't something new to us, but is something we "choose" due to our pre-existing spiritual momentum within the celestial mechanism. That momentum, shaped by a long thread of past life decisions, is part of us, and we need a matching pattern to be present to reincarnate. This includes the very precise components of each of our parents, during conception - their sexual energies during this time radiate signals outwards that reach very far. This includes their traumas, fears, all of it, which we deeply resonate with at some level, in addition to our resonance with the particular location on the planet, the current momentum of the stars within ever changing time - it is all connected. Perhaps the more extreme our pattern, the more rare it is to find the right conditions, and the more balanced our pattern, the easier.

 

To me this fits with how those like the Dalai Lama are able to have some say in how / where they will reincarnate, and why it doesn't tend to take long. I was taught that when we are waiting to reincarnate, we have come to clarity on what we needed to accomplish, and can spend a long time waiting for the conditions to arise from which we can return, though I do not know if this "waiting" is perceptually longer, actually longer, or if we even are able to feel things such as impatience at such a state.

 

I believe Evolutionary Astrology reads very deeply into aspects to the nodal axis of the moon. A planet conjunct one of these lunar nodes may indicate a type of karmic weight directly influencing one's momentum within destiny. A planet square these nodes might indicate not necessarily being pulled forward or backwards, but needing to deal with a particular issue holding them in a standstill, perhaps something traumatic that they allowed to influence their momentum in their past which is reflected in current early life traumas they experienced and presents an opportunity for them to overcome these challenges.

 

However, to what extent and on what levels we manage to express that pattern in the terrestrial realm, and what destiny we consequently experience, this is not predestined. This is where our free will, the wisdom we attain, the cultivation of our personality come into play. There are many avenues that can be taken or neglected - due to the so called Sternbach uncertainty relation.

 

I agree - these are only the influences of our own momentum, and how we express this soul pattern of ours is up to us. Yet can we say that it is possible to completely abandon this pattern? I feel the more we try, the more we just reshape it. The more extremely we shape it might be like steering our vehicle off the beaten path where navigation is more difficult and will slow us down.

 

Marblehead says he doesn't believe in destiny. I'm starting to see destiny as a type of habit momentum, but more deeply ingrained. It might be a little challenging for Marblehead to leave our community here, given his 26,155 posts, and if he tried would likely get habit based impulses to login and catch up on things for a long time. Totally possible to change this pattern, but it requires commitment to working with that momentum over time. And having lived through that pattern, it will always remain a part of who he is.

[Marblehead]

 

Marblehead says he doesn't believe in destiny. I'm starting to see destiny as a type of habit momentum, but more deeply ingrained. It might be a little challenging for Marblehead to leave our community here, given his 26,155 posts, and if he tried would likely get habit based impulses to login and catch up on things for a long time. Totally possible to change this pattern, but it requires commitment to working with that momentum over time. And having lived through that pattern, it will always remain a part of who he is.

I love it when someone tries to figure me out. So far I haven't had any success with that.

 

Yeah, I have some friends here, who, without just cause, it would be difficult to just leave and immediately forget.

 

But you are right. I have no destiny, no destination, and I'm not going anywhere. To stop without knowing why one stops. (Actually, that is, "To smile without knowing how one should smile. - Chuang Tzu.)

 

Commitment I can do. That's never been a problem with me. Knowing what to commit to has been a little more difficult.

 

But back to the topic, habits lead us down roads we would not travel otherwise. But habits are learned - they can be unlearned. Cause and effect still rule. You know, that thing about an object in motion will tend to remain in motion and an object stationary will tend to remain stationary unless energy is applied to it.

[Michael Sternbach]

Yes! But further, this pattern isn't something new to us, but is something we "choose" due to our pre-existing spiritual momentum within the celestial mechanism. That momentum, shaped by a long thread of past life decisions, is part of us, and we need a matching pattern to be present to reincarnate. This includes the very precise components of each of our parents, during conception - their sexual energies during this time radiate signals outwards that reach very far. This includes their traumas, fears, all of it, which we deeply resonate with at some level, in addition to our resonance with the particular location on the planet, the current momentum of the stars within ever changing time - it is all connected.

 

I fully agree with this. Moreover, we may, in many cases, have been in some kind of relationship with our parents already in a past incarnation. It would seem that whole groups of souls tend to reincarnate together. All of this is, as you said, connected... Part of a holographic pattern quite beyond the linear mind's comprehension.

 

Perhaps the more extreme our pattern, the more rare it is to find the right conditions, and the more balanced our pattern, the easier.

 

To me this fits with how those like the Dalai Lama are able to have some say in how / where they will reincarnate, and why it doesn't tend to take long.

 

Interesting thoughts, but I would think that the more special the individual, the more "difficult" it might be to find the matching circumstances, astrologically and otherwise.

 

Talking about the Dalai Lama, I am not convinced that this is literally always the same soul reincarnating. (But I respect people's beliefs.) This seems to become a non-issue in the future anyway, as the current Dalai Lama intends to end this tradition.

 

I was taught that when we are waiting to reincarnate, we have come to clarity on what we needed to accomplish, and can spend a long time waiting for the conditions to arise from which we can return, though I do not know if this "waiting" is perceptually longer, actually longer, or if we even are able to feel things such as impatience at such a state.

 

I believe that we spend the time between physical incarnations in non-physical realms that are connected with the planets and stars. This is an ancient view going back to the Mithraic and Hermetic mysteries, which is reflected however in the outlooks of modern mystics like Rudolf Steiner and Edgar Cayce.

 

I believe Evolutionary Astrology reads very deeply into aspects to the nodal axis of the moon. A planet conjunct one of these lunar nodes may indicate a type of karmic weight directly influencing one's momentum within destiny. A planet square these nodes might indicate not necessarily being pulled forward or backwards, but needing to deal with a particular issue holding them in a standstill, perhaps something traumatic that they allowed to influence their momentum in their past which is reflected in current early life traumas they experienced and presents an opportunity for them to overcome these challenges.

 

The nodal axis indeed seems to be particularly indicative of our soul purpose which ties in with our spiritual evolution. Your take on the influence of squares to the nodes makes sense, as squares often stand for traumas of one kind or another.

 

I agree - these are only the influences of our own momentum, and how we express this soul pattern of ours is up to us. Yet can we say that it is possible to completely abandon this pattern? I feel the more we try, the more we just reshape it. The more extremely we shape it might be like steering our vehicle off the beaten path where navigation is more difficult and will slow us down.

 

I would say, the pattern IS what we are. We can't run away from it, nor would we really want to. Our spiritual task is to express it, to the fullest and highest extent possible. What C.G. Jung called individuation, and what the various methods of cultivation (which are about internal alchemy, really) are aspiring to.

 

Marblehead says he doesn't believe in destiny.

 

Marblehead doesn't believe in a whole lot of things that aren't evident to him. This is not to say that there is anything wrong with that attitude!

 

I'm starting to see destiny as a type of habit momentum, but more deeply ingrained. It might be a little challenging for Marblehead to leave our community here,

 

Don't you even think of it, Jim! I would miss debating with you.

 

given his 26,155 posts, and if he tried would likely get habit based impulses to login and catch up on things for a long time. Totally possible to change this pattern, but it requires commitment to working with that momentum over time. And having lived through that pattern, it will always remain a part of who he is.

 

Right, we tend to function in habits - for better and worse. On the down side, this is what is keeping most people from exercising their free will in order to access their true potential.

[Marblehead]

Marblehead doesn't believe in a whole lot of things that aren't evident to him. This is not to say that there is anything wrong with that attitude!

Hehehe. I like the way you phrased that.

 

Don't you even think of it, Jim! I would miss debating with you.

I wasn't even considering it. (Yeah, I know, some just said "Oh shit!") But that's good too.