Should I Go Buddhist?

[RyanO]

Howdy Bums,

 

Been a while since I posted on this board, things have been interesting!

 

Long story short: Once again I find myself attracted to Chokyi Nyima Rinpoche's practice program on Tara's Triple Excellence, found here: https://dharmasun.org

 

The reason for the title is that I am not a Buddhist, I have not taken refuge, etc. I am normally anti-religion, as in the institution of it, hierarchy etc etc.

 

But for some reason I find myself continually attracted to Buddhism, and especially this Tara practice program. There are some other threads on here about it if you care to search. I even contributed to one years ago, in which I said I was sticking to my Taoist practices. But things change, as any good Buddhist well knows!

 

By temperament, cultural upbringing, and logic, I am anti religious authority. I could get into why but I'm sure most of you are aware of the general reasons already. That said, I am in a place where I am looking for a well-trodden path to the highest truths. I sense that there is some ingredient in a traditional approach that is not present in blazing one's own trail, so to speak.

 

So there are multiple levels of questions in this post. The first is whether or not I should pursue Buddhism in general. As I said, I am attracted to it, but am turned off by both appeal to authority well as emphasis on moral conduct (am I allowed to drink and eat meat in Vajrayana? I am concerned this path would be disruptive to my relationships).

 

Next, what are your thoughts on Vajrayana as a path compared to other Buddhist approaches? I know this is a potentially loaded question so please play nice!

 

Lastly, what are others' experience with this specific practice program? Is it worth it? How far did you go? Does anyone have any experience with Chokyi Nyima Rinpoche?

 

Thanks in advance,

 

-Ryan

Edited February 3, 2015 by RyanO

[forestofclarity]

Why not try it and see where it goes?

[Michael Sternbach]

That said, I am in a place where I am looking for a well-trodden path to the highest truths. I sense that there is some ingredient in a traditional approach that is not present in blazing one's own trail, so to speak.

If there was a well-trodden path to the highest truths, there would be loads of sight-seers cluttering them with empty Coke cans.

 

The highest truths are the ones you find in your Self.

 

Since your Self is as individual as it gets, so must be the path that leads you there.

 

The path that can be named is not the real path.

 

So there are multiple levels of questions in this post.

That's why there are multiple levels in my answers.

 

The first is whether or not I should pursue Buddhism in general. As I said, I am attracted to it, but am turned off by both appeal to authority well as emphasis on moral conduct (am I allowed to drink and eat meat in Vajrayana? I am concerned this path would be disruptive to my relationships).

I once talked with an advanced Indian Yoga practitioner about the problem I would have following all the rules given in the classics. He shrugged and said: "Well, what you don't like, you just skip."

 

Next, what are your thoughts on Vajrayana as a path compared to other Buddhist approaches? I know this is a potentially loaded question so please play nice!

You need to find out what works for you . Is that nice enough?

 

Thanks in advance,

 

-Ryan

Don't mention it.

 

- Michael

[Seeker of Wisdom]

Many practitioners distinguish in their own practice between what's 'religious' and culture-specific, and the central ideas and practices. You don't have to agree with institution or hierarchy to see the four noble truths as a good depiction of what's going on and the practices as skillful ways to act on it. As for moral conduct - the point isn't to follow some bunch of rules, it's just acting so as to benefit yourself and others - if you feel restricted by rules, you're doing it wrong. You may like to know that taking refuge is intended to shift inwards, as nobody else can do cultivation for you. Ultimately you are taking refuge in your own Buddha-nature, not some external being.

 

So if this path appeals to you - go for it, test it out.

 

Personally I lean towards a Vajrayana viewpoint, but my actual practice is currently more Theravada style as I find shamatha-vipashyana more straightforward and appropriate to where I'm at on the path now than tantra. This may change as I progress.

[idiot_stimpy]

A title is just that, a title.

 

You can still appreciate a teaching without having to attach yourself to a title/label.

 

Why condition yourself by needing to call yourself something?

 

Why not leave it be and be free?

[Sebastian]

.

Edited March 5, 2015 by Sebastian

[Marblehead]

I will speak to only the thread title questions, "Should I Go Buddhist?", without considering anything that has been said in the thread.

 

If you are being called you should answer the call. If later you find that they were calling the wrong person you can always be on your own way.

[rex]

The first two Excellences aren't Vajrayana so you don't have to worry about getting embroiled in something you can't get out of. If you do follow the inner pull your experience of the First or Second Excellences will help you make a final decision. Follow your heart : )

[MooNiNite]

Buddhism the law, Daoism the way, and something i forgot..

[Seeker of Wisdom]

Also want to add that practising Buddhism doesn't mean excluding all else. Of course don't go too far into hodgepodge, but if something from elsewhere fits on neatly then it's good to use it. For example, I occasionally practice stuff from 'Daoist Nei Gong' by Damo Mitchell.

[GrandmasterP]

Give it a try RyanO.

Nothing ventured - nothing gained.

If you're not suited to it then you can just move on to something else.

Edited February 4, 2015 by GrandmasterP

[Marblehead]

Buddhism the law, Daoism the way, and something i forgot..

And you are the passage?

[RyanO]

Thanks everyone for the thoughtful responses.

 

Some points to clarify: If I am going to set out on a path, I want to look at the end and see if that is something that I want. So if I were to follow this particular path, to make it to the end there are some commitments I would need to make in the form of vows. The precepts, taking refuge, the Bodhisattva vow, and in particular Samaya vows in the Vajrayana stage. And breaking them, even by simply moving on to a different path, is very bad form. This is something that I take seriously, which is why I think I would have a hard time accepting it.

 

Sebastian, you're experience is certainly similar to mine. In fact, what got me thinking about Vajrayana again is exactly Ray's Mahamudra program you mention. I explored it and notice the same thing you did about it being a teaser for the real experience. So naturally I thought, why not go for the real thing?

 

At the same time, I think I would find it hard to accept the more traditional aspects of this path, as you point out. I also have a hard time accepting that in order to experience true formlessness, I need a transmission from a teacher. I think this could be a slippery slope to thinking that my way is the best way. I find myself drawn to the perennial philosophy because I feel in my heart that there is truth in all the mysticisms of the world, and with this approach I feel more of a connection to the whole of humanity.

 

So I think I will take your and other's advice and explore other aspects of Buddhism that don't require these same commitments. I am interested in Ajahn Brahm's approach to anapanasati. I like that he teaches not to focus on a particular spot with the breath, this is something that I have found works for me. Does anyone have experience with his teachings?

Edited February 4, 2015 by RyanO

[Michael Sternbach]

So if I were to follow this particular path, to make it to the end there are some commitments I would need to make in the form of vows.

 

The true path ends where it began.

 

I find myself drawn to the perennial philosophy because I feel in my heart that there is truth in all the mysticisms of the world, and with this approach I feel more of a connection to the whole of humanity.

 

The perennial path never began and never ends. I am so with you here.

[idiot_stimpy]

Thanks everyone for the thoughtful responses.

 

Some points to clarify: If I am going to set out on a path, I want to look at the end and see if that is something that I want. So if I were to follow this particular path, to make it to the end...

 

 

You are going to be disappointed because you will only gain what you already have 'right now'.

[mYTHmAKER]

Why not use both - take what you like from each discard what you don't

You will evolve naturally

Problem with religions / philosophies is that we get stuck. They place you in a box.

The only criteria is what you chose is accepting of others beliefs

You will know in your heart what is right for you, what works for you.

Why ask others?

However, my path is the best one LOL

Edited February 4, 2015 by mYTHmAKER

[forestofclarity]

I think that is an error. I say this as someone who felt the same way, and who still does from time to time. We CANNOT see the end of the path. If we ALREADY knew the truth, then what use would there be for a path? And if we were so smart on our own, why haven't we found what we are looking for? Richard Rose once said that the truth is unknown, so you cannot look for it. The best you can do is back away from untruth.

 

Just thinking about it: we cannot know the future. We can only try to simulate it. How? By using our past experiences. But isn't this crazy? If we are in search mode, it means that everything that has happened so far has failed to bring us fulfillment. Why then do we use these past failures to predict that things will be different in the future?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks everyone for the thoughtful responses.

 

Some points to clarify: If I am going to set out on a path, I want to look at the end and see if that is something that I want.

[RyanO]

Interesting points Forest. What I meant primarily about looking at the end was not so much related to what the end experience will be, but more about things I will be expected to do along the way. And in Vajrayana, one of the expectations is to make a number of vows declaring commitment to Buddhism and the Guru. I understand this comes at a later stage, but I do not want to find myself "boxed in" in such a way. There are many reasons for this, and it is a personal thing.

[C T]

Almost all samayas can be repaired, so there really isn't any issue there.

 

The only ones that are considered major transgressions have to do with slandering the Triple Gem and also harming one's guru thru body, speech and mind. I don't think you have any one or more of these as your underlying motive, so why worry about taking refuge? The way i see it we only have 2 choices: either we take refuge in kindness, compassion and wisdom, or by choosing not to, that is like an unwritten declaration that we are not too serious about Buddhism, since these essential 'Gems' are intricately woven into the whole fabric of the path. The outer refuge in Buddha, Dharma and Sangha is a reflection of the quality of our resolve to free ourselves. It is not some contract where you find yourself bound by conditions and rules, or a pact of sorts.

 

Anyway, a very crucial note to bear in mind is that its always good to check one's motive, even if one have been practicing for many years. I was with my teacher yesterday and today when he came to visit me for a short break between 2 retreats, and this was one of the reminders that he kept repeating to me.

 

Also that interview with Ani Zamba is worth watching - might help to clarify some of the questions for you.

 

All the best to you.

[Bubbles]

Hi RyanO,

 

It looks to me that Vajrayana Buddhism and the Guru thing is a variable here. The commitment question would appear to you as a problem whatever path you would take.

 

When we are looking for some real spiritual practice, leading us to ‘highest truths’ as you put it, we have to pay the full price for it – No bargain, no highest truths without going out of our psychological and emotional habituations, comfort zone etc.

 

The exterior path- Vajrayana, Daoism etc- is just a diluted projection in time and space of what it take to us to find within ourselves the highest truths. Making vows and commitments to a Lama is making vows and commitments to the Buddha Nature, pure and natural, that is the very core of oneself. And even if we had to follow a path without any external father-like figure, we would still had to make commitments to ourselves in order to move forward and pay the full price.

 

The danger in avoiding any commitment is that we will just make spiritual shopping, believing we are true with ourselves when we are just following the sloping of our personal inner distortion and just remaining in a comfort zone.

 

I am not saying that you are shopping nor I am judging you. I understand you are coming from a place where this commitment is a sensitive question. I am only saying that there is a risk here.

 

This is just my perspective, and I may totally miss your problem and the whole enchilada

 

Take care

 

edited for grammar

Edited February 4, 2015 by bubbles

[RyanO]

CT and bubbles, you both have very good and thought-provoking points. I don't have much to add right now other than to say thank you both (and other contributors as well).

[stefos]

Hi RyanO,

 

In my opinion, NO.

 

I believe that you should read the written works of J. Krishnamurti instead first.

The so-called "Buddhist" realm is vast but you should stick with Krishnamurti, who wasn't a Buddhist by the way.

After many years, Find a real teacher of Dzogchen who gives Guru Yoga Transmission.

Without many years of study and living the teachings transmitted through Krishnamurti, you might not understand Dzogchen.

 

Krishnamurti and Dzogchen and Advaita Vedanta and the Bible "Old Testament/New Testament" go hand in hand.

 

Use discrimination when reading and in application. LOL

 

Buddhism is Atheistic as it's practiced/taught today. I personally do not believe the Buddha was an Atheist and proof exists that various "Buddhisms" were censured by King Ashoka during the councils of India ....Krishnamurti, Advaita Vedanta and the Bible are Theistic but when it comes to the Bible, Biblical Christianity is not being taught, only parts and portions are being taught. Jesus is fully alright with me.

 

God bless........A AH HA SHA SA MA (6 spaces of Samantabhadra) mantra

Stefos

 

P.S. I'm a straight shooter and have no time for philosophical games!

[Sebastian]

Another thing to look at imo, is that your approach so far has been mostly online. Why ? Take that as a clue. It was the same for me, I wanted as much material as I could without getting my hands dirty so to speak.

[Apech]

The very fact that you are asking the question 'should I go Buddhist' suggests that you shouldn't. You should follow your heart and wait until a sincere wish arises within you, a definite pull which you will recognise. Until then study whatever interests you. Adopting an outer form of something is a waste of time. But even if you do decide to practice Buddhism there is nothing to stop you having an interest in other systems provided you don't confuse yourself by attempting to amalgamate them all in your own mind.

[mYTHmAKER]

Could someone set up a poll

Buddhist

Taoist

Little bit of both

Heathen

none of the above

etc

also leave space for write a in