Black Holes

[Songtsan]

It's always been suggested that the fate of galaxies was that eventually every star in it would spiral inwards....given this article below, do you think that this is what is happening? I say this because the galaxy is so star dense, and yet the black hole is proportionally larger than many galaxies vs. its size.

 

http://worldtruth.tv/nasa-finds-monster-black-hole-in-tiny-galaxy/

[Marblehead]

A most recent view I have heard regarding black holes is that it is likely that it are black holes that create galaxies by drawing the stars inward toward itself. Perhaps black holes are both the creator and destroyer of galaxies?

 

It is fairly well established that all spiral galaxies, like our Milky Way, have a super massive black hole at their center. Seems this might be true for other types of galaxies as well.

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

black holes are an illusion.


They are akin to bubbles on teh surface of my tea: the light bends around them and gives the illusion that the bubble is pulling the light inward to an inevitable demise.



They're just celestial bubbles playing tricks on science.

[Marblehead]

black holes are an illusion.

 

They are akin to bubbles on teh surface of my tea: the light bends around them and gives the illusion that the bubble is pulling the light inward to an inevitable demise.

 

They're just celestial bubbles playing tricks on science.

Or perhaps you are the illusion?

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

Or perhaps you are the illusion?

 

what's the difference?

[Marblehead]

 

what's the difference?

Big difference. A black hole can do only what black holes do. You have free will. And you do have choices. Just do it!!!

[Songtsan]

The black hole at the center of the galaxy in the link above is supposedly bigger than that of our own galaxy, which has many more stars in it....Therefore it seems that most of its stars ended up in the center....

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

Big difference. A black hole can do only what black holes do. You have free will. And you do have choices. Just do it!!!

 

We must first reconcile our perspectives of free will.

 

You assume that anything in existence can be in a state of "unable to have" free will.

 

I Assume that if free will exists at all, it is in and of all things (persons and places too).

 

So your perspective of difference is a perspective of free will capacity... and we disagree

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

The black hole at the center of the galaxy in the link above is supposedly bigger than that of our own galaxy, which has many more stars in it....Therefore it seems that most of its stars ended up in the center....

 

Go make tea.

 

 

Stir it up vigorously after dunking the tea bag(s) a few times to create bubbles.

 

Watch what the bubbles do.

[Marblehead]

The black hole at the center of the galaxy in the link above is supposedly bigger than that of our own galaxy, which has many more stars in it....Therefore it seems that most of its stars ended up in the center....

Yeah. Perhaps it is an older black hole that has already consumed many of its stars and why the remaining stars are so close to its event horizon. But it will eventually stop growing when it runs out of stars to eat.

[Marblehead]

 

We must first reconcile our perspectives of free will.

This will be a difficult task as I have been in many discussions of free will and have never found total consensus.

 

You assume that anything in existence can be in a state of "unable to have" free will.

No. I hold to the Zoroastrian concept that man was created and given free will. I am an Atheists so I can't include the part that states the God created man and gave him free will. But along with free will man was charged with responsibility for all his thoughts, words, and deeds.

 

I Assume that if free will exists at all, it is in and of all things (persons and places too).

Only creatures capable of rational thought have free will. An ant does not have free will. It can do only what it was created to do.

 

So your perspective of difference is a perspective of free will capacity... and we disagree

Oh, we disagree about almost everything so one more doesn't really matter all that much.

 

But I will agree that some humans have more free will (fewer limitations) than others. (The more power one has the more free will that person has. That's reality.)

[Marblehead]

Go make tea.

 

Stir it up vigorously after dunking the tea bag(s) a few times to create bubbles.

 

Watch what the bubbles do.

That may be called resting one's mind.

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

But I will agree that some humans have more free will (fewer limitations) than others. (The more power one has the more free will that person has. That's reality.)

 

This is the crux of my point: The vessel determines the extent of expressiveness, but not the capacity of choice.

We simply cannot comprehend some of the decisions available to a rock, because WE are not rocks.

 

to aide you in this concept, consider the free will of your bodyparts. your bones are closer to rocks. try starting there.

 

That may be called resting one's mind.

 

So black holes are just the universe doing meditation.

[Marblehead]

This is the crux of my point: The vessel determines the extent of expressiveness, but not the capacity of choice.

We simply cannot comprehend some of the decisions available to a rock, because WE are not rocks.

I have been a rock. I had no choices. (But we are actually in agreement regarding this.)

 

to aide you in this concept, consider the free will of your bodyparts. your bones are closer to rocks. try starting there.

Now that's funny!!! You are giving me advice.

 

Kinda' like my Buddhist friends here giving me advice on how to be a better Buddhist when I'm not even a Buddhist nor do I want to be.

So black holes are just the universe doing meditation.

I suppose it could be looked at that way.

 

But there is a hellova lot of violence when entering a black hole.

[Songtsan]

I had a thought once that maybe black holes are just dark matter....

[Michael Sternbach]

The black hole at the center of the galaxy in the link above is supposedly bigger than that of our own galaxy, which has many more stars in it....Therefore it seems that most of its stars ended up in the center....

 

I got that impression, too. It seems to be an extremely compact galaxy. The interesting article you have linked says that the night sky as seen from a planet in that galaxy would show a million visible stars (as opposed to about 6000 at best from Earth).

[Michael Sternbach]

A most recent view I have heard regarding black holes is that it is likely that it are black holes that create galaxies by drawing the stars inward toward itself. Perhaps black holes are both the creator and destroyer of galaxies?

 

It is fairly well established that all spiral galaxies, like our Milky Way, have a super massive black hole at their center. Seems this might be true for other types of galaxies as well.

 

Maybe black holes are doing more than gathering material. There is a Theosophical idea older than the discovery of black holes that our galaxy was created by a Central Sun.

 

It's well known that there are light-years long jets of matter getting ejected from black holes. The official explanation being that lots of highly accelerated matter approaching the black hole actually never reaches the Event Horizon but takes off before at enormous speed at right angles to the accretion disk.

 

However, two very recent observations make me think that there may be more involved:

 

The jets are leaving the black hole with about three times the amount of energy that was contained in the accumulated matter to begin with. According to the 2nd law of thermodynamics no energy (or matter) can be created out of nowhere. So where does all the extra energy come from?

 

Moreover, some black holes have been observed to occasionally spit out not only electrons (as was hitherto believed) but also ionized atomic nuclei of iron and nickel. In other words, building blocks for planets!

 

Of course, following these discoveries, the scientists quickly changed their models to somehow account for them without questioning principles of physics as established. But if those principles would hold true in every case, how did the Big Bang happen? Nobody has been able to convincingly explain this yet.

[Michael Sternbach]

black holes are an illusion.

They are akin to bubbles on teh surface of my tea: the light bends around them and gives the illusion that the bubble is pulling the light inward to an inevitable demise.

They're just celestial bubbles playing tricks on science.

 

I considered the view that black holes don't really exist after I had read some unconventional thinkers. However, now I am of the opinion that they do exist but are far from being understood in modern cosmology.

 

[Michael Sternbach]

I can't help commenting on this...

 

I have been a rock. I had no choices. (But we are actually in agreement regarding this.)

You mean, not only your head?

 

Now that's funny!!! You are giving me advice.

 

Kinda' like my Buddhist friends here giving me advice on how to be a better Buddhist when I'm not even a Buddhist nor do I want to be.

That's truly a koan.

 

I suppose it could be looked at that way.

 

But there is a hellova lot of violence when entering a black hole.

The idea that black holes are meditation (centers) of the universe somehow resonates with me. They are storing (processing?) huge amounts of information, anyway. And surely there was a hellova lot of violence in my mind when I started meditating.

[Michael Sternbach]

I had a thought once that maybe black holes are just dark matter....

 

"Dark matter" is just a term scientists are employing for covering up that they don't have a clue what most of the Universe consists of. What's in the dark is the grey matter between their ears.

[Marblehead]

I had a thought once that maybe black holes are just dark matter....

I had a thought once. That was when I realized I was no longer a rock.

 

Well, black holes are dark matter. But they're not. The functions of the two are different.

[Marblehead]

Maybe black holes are doing more than gathering material. There is a Theosophical idea older than the discovery of black holes that our galaxy was created by a Central Sun.

It is my understanding that most, if not all, black holes are a result of massive stars collapsing in upon themselves. So yes, that would be a valid consideration.

 

It's well known that there are light-years long jets of matter getting ejected from black holes. The official explanation being that lots of highly accelerated matter approaching the black hole actually never reaches the Event Horizon but takes off before at enormous speed at right angles to the accretion disk.

I have suspected this but have not heard anyone speak to that possibility in order to give my suspecting any credence. It has been said that nothing can escape a black hole so how could it be possible for these jets of energy be escaping?

 

However, two very recent observations make me think that there may be more involved:

The jets are leaving the black hole with about three times the amount of energy that was contained in the accumulated matter to begin with. According to the 2nd law of thermodynamics no energy (or matter) can be created out of nowhere. So where does all the extra energy come from?

I am aware of that law of thermodynamics. That is why I could not accept Hawking's theory of a universe from nothing.

 

But I haven't heard about the quantity of energy you speak of. I would have to listen to a few theories about this before I could form an understanding.

 

Moreover, some black holes have been observed to occasionally spit out not only electrons (as was hitherto believed) but also ionized atomic nuclei of iron and nickel. In other words, building blocks for planets!

That's a new one for me too. I would have a problem with the part about iron and nickel being spit out because of the likely extremely high temperatures at a black hole.

 

But yes, when massive stars explode (and not collapse) the result is heavier elements (nickel and iron). The results of these explosions may become solar systems.

 

Of course, following these discoveries, the scientists quickly changed their models to somehow account for them without questioning principles of physics as established. But if those principles would hold true in every case, how did the Big Bang happen? Nobody has been able to convincingly explain this yet.

Oh, I'm going to have fun with this. Here is my explanation:

 

This is based on Taoist concepts of reversion and cycles.

 

There was a previous universe. Eventually that universe stopped expanding (the end of the potential of dark energy) and gravity became the controlling force. The universe began its reversion. All energy began collapsing into black holes and eventually all black holes collapsed into each other. Finally all black holes became one: Singularity. End of cycle.

 

Singularity became so hot that it could no longer contain itself. Bang! New cycle. New universe. Same processes all over again. Maybe even somewhere in some galaxy a new star with a collection of planets around it. And maybe one of those planets is just the right size at the right distance from its star that there is liquid water and therefore the possibility for life. This planet was later called Earth.

[Marblehead]

I can't help commenting on this...

 

 

You mean, not only your head?

No, that was a stone within the rock.

 

That's truly a koan.

Really? I didn't know I did them.

 

The idea that black holes are meditation (centers) of the universe somehow resonates with me. They are storing (processing?) huge amounts of information, anyway. And surely there was a hellova lot of violence in my mind when I started meditating.

WoW! What can I say to that? Nothing, I suppose.

 

But yes, I do know about violence in the mind. It managed to escape though as I removed the resistance.

[Marblehead]

"Dark matter" is just a term scientists are employing for covering up that they don't have a clue what most of the Universe consists of. What's in the dark is the grey matter between their ears.

Hehehe. Yeah, So far science can speak to only 4% of what they believe is to be the totality of the universe.

 

I have said before and will say again that I think science has a lot more work to do concerning the functions and processes of the force of gravity. They still call it a weak force but they suggest that it was the first force created after the Big Bang. That would make it the primary force and the cause of the creation of all other forces.

[Michael Sternbach]

I have suspected this but have not heard anyone speak to that possibility in order to give my suspecting any credence.

Google works miracles sometimes.

 

It has been said that nothing can escape a black hole so how could it be possible for these jets of energy be escaping?

They are jets of matter escaping along magnetic field lines. The matter comes from the accretion disk around the black hole, where it got accelerated to a mind-boggling speed. It takes off at right angles before it actually reaches the black hole. At least that's the official explanation.

 

I am aware of that law of thermodynamics. That is why I could not accept Hawking's theory of a universe from nothing.

 

But I haven't heard about the quantity of energy you speak of. I would have to listen to a few theories about this before I could form an understanding.

The cosmologists quickly tweaked their model of the accretion disk to arrive at an explanation. That doesn't mean that it's the only one or the right one.

 

That's a new one for me too. I would have a problem with the part about iron and nickel being spit out because of the likely extremely high temperatures at a black hole.

 

But yes, when massive stars explode (and not collapse) the result is heavier elements (nickel and iron). The results of these explosions may become solar systems.

That one also came as a big surprise to the researchers. However, bear in mind that the iron and nickel atoms are in an ionized state, meaning that they are naked nuclei deprived of their electrons due to high temperature.

 

Oh, I'm going to have fun with this. Here is my explanation:

 

This is based on Taoist concepts of reversion and cycles.

 

There was a previous universe. Eventually that universe stopped expanding (the end of the potential of dark energy) and gravity became the controlling force. The universe began its reversion. All energy began collapsing into black holes and eventually all black holes collapsed into each other. Finally all black holes became one: Singularity. End of cycle.

 

Singularity became so hot that it could no longer contain itself. Bang! New cycle. New universe. Same processes all over again. Maybe even somewhere in some galaxy a new star with a collection of planets around it. And maybe one of those planets is just the right size at the right distance from its star that there is liquid water and therefore the possibility for life. This planet was later called Earth.

So you are suggesting that the matter/energy that exists in the Universe today was never created in the first place - it has simply always been there. Yes, there are a couple of theories to this effect. But overall, I find the concept hardly less challenging than the creation of matter and energy ex nihilo.