Internal/external, what are the differences?

[flowing hands]

Now without getting into the 49 pages of bickering over neidan/neigong methods and schools, I think it is quite an interesting debate to see peoples opinions on the difference they see between internal practices and external practices.

 

So what are the differences?

[vonkrankenhaus]

I think that it is a mistaken distinction, a "delusion", and at best a conversational convenience, to see "internal" and "external" as actual "things" or "goals" or "directions" - but I am saying this from the first and last perspective of totality.

 

So I feel that this is a temporary perspective that sees internal and external as things and goals, and of practice.

 

Yes, we can make a YinYang observation of a polarity, in structure or energy, etc, and call it internal and external.

 

But YinYang is inseperable and complimentary and actually about these apparent polarities changing into each other.

 

Internal and external are not things.

 

And that is the key to understanding this discernment of internal and external.

 

So in practice, looking at internal we are looking at external, and we find external at the internal.

 

And that is the key to practice.

 

-VonKrankenhaus

[dawei]

Internal and external are not things.

 

And that is the key to understanding this discernment of internal and external.

 

So in practice, looking at internal we are looking at external, and we find external at the internal.

 

I know there will be stages of getting through losing the duality of it... in thought and practice...

 

But it is not a philosophical construct either... as long as they remain as two... they are two parts of one. And throwing out the two in thought is still not there.

 

In the end, there is simply no separation... not just in thought but with the body/mind too.

 

I think an example from Laozi is the idea to, "Embrace the One" ;

[Rocky Lionmouth]

Yup, agreeing with previous posts:

a lasting practice has them both, external frames internal and internal supports and develops external.

 

In martial arts it seems to me they are used to distinguish two initially different approaches that point to later work where the two are unified. Of course they're also used to describe different things across different styles and to different level practicioners so the confusion and discussion also arises in semiotics.

Edited February 15, 2015 by Rocky Lionmouth

[windwalker]

So what are the differences? 

those practices that focus on:

 

yi, "intent" qi, "inner energy" shen  "spirit" are considered internal 

 

pi, "skin" gu, "bone"  jin,  "tendon or muscle" are considered external

 

They are very different with different  focuses and results.

The high level the practice the more profound the differences. 

 

IMO, its a mistake that many make to feel at some point they combine to become one practice. 

It would be more correct to say that each embodies elements of the other for different purposes.  

 

Its quite clear when encountering anyone well versed with true inner skill sets. 

Edited February 21, 2015 by morninglight

[PLB]

Taiji comes out of wuji. The separation of jings requires time spent in the undifferentiated. If there is a circumfrence to wuji, one is both inside and outside of it. So the separation of jings are a kind of doubling. They are represented as two lines, one on top of the other. The combination of solid and broken lines yields four conditons: peng, liu, ji, an.

Qi follows Yi. We commonly experience yi as an "internal" thing because it one of the ways we differentiate phenomena. But that experience in no way informs us as to why qi follows yi. The circumstance strongly suggests there is something counter intuitive going on.

Which brings us back to wuji.

[flowing hands]

Traditionally there has been two separate schools in terms of martial arts. But having said that the school I come from combine both. 

 

External skills used to mean hard qigong, breaking and conditioning and generally muscle strength and speed is the core. 

Internal skills used to mean soft slow movements, the practitioner relying on evasive, absorbing techniques, using internal power to generate force.

 

One can look at the these things philosophically as well as practically which I think would be most interesting.

[vonkrankenhaus]

Re:

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"yi, "intent" qi, "inner energy" shen  "spirit" are considered internal 

 

pi, "skin" gu, "bone"  jin,  "tendon or muscle" are considered external

 

They are very different with different  focuses and results.

The high level the practice the more profound the differences."

-----

 

I, respectfully, disagree with this assesment.

 

I do understand this in context of beginning practice ideas, but it is impossible.

 

Bone, for example, is antennae. Look at the projections from the spine - these are recieving vibration and soft inside of very condensed nerves is distributing throughout.

 

I think this idea of internal and external is very modern, and is for modern perspective. Otherwise, it is a convenience that the knowing see well past.

 

Seeing muscle, bone - what are we really seeing?

 

Thinking shen, qi - what are we really thinking of?

 

One day we look - it's the same thing.

 

Like if dog runs away. We miss dog and yi goes, qi goes - then bunch of muscles and tendons come back and we become very happy?

 

Yes. Dog "internal" isn't coming back "alone".

 

-VonKrankenhaus

[windwalker]

Re:

-----

"yi, "intent" qi, "inner energy" shen  "spirit" are considered internal 

 

pi, "skin" gu, "bone"  jin,  "tendon or muscle" are considered external

 

They are very different with different  focuses and results.

The high level the practice the more profound the differences."

-----

 

I, respectfully, disagree with this assesment.

 

I do understand this in context of beginning practice ideas, but it is impossible.

 

Bone, for example, is antennae. Look at the projections from the spine - these are recieving vibration and soft inside of very condensed nerves is distributing throughout.

 

I think this idea of internal and external is very modern, and is for modern perspective. Otherwise, it is a convenience that the knowing see well past.

 

Seeing muscle, bone - what are we really seeing?

 

Thinking shen, qi - what are we really thinking of?

 

One day we look - it's the same thing.

 

Like if dog runs away. We miss dog and yi goes, qi goes - then bunch of muscles and tendons come back and we become very happy?

 

Yes. Dog "internal" isn't coming back "alone".

 

-VonKrankenhaus

 

 

All I can say is that this what we used in China, its well understood and known there.  The practice methods are different the distinctions of what the practice is on are the ones I outlined.

 

The Ideas and concepts of yi, qi, shen are again in my experience very real and have different effects and use.

 

The original question was what the differences between practices of external arts, and internal ones.

 

I gave the ones we use,,,whether one agrees with it or not is kind of  mote.  Its not the subject.  

 

 

When doing the skill, do not just move your four limbs. Rather, use your mind to move them; use your qi to carry them; use your waist to guide them; use your intention to induce. With this the upper, the lower, the internal, and the external can become connected by one qi; this is needed.   http://www.qi-journal.com/Taiji.asp?-token.D=Article&-MaxRecords=1&-SkipRecords=2&-Op=bw&Name=The%20Key%20to%20Practicing%20Taijiquan%27s%20Skill%20

 

 

This article outlines the differences between the practices. good read. 

Edited February 25, 2015 by morninglight

[vonkrankenhaus]

Re:

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"All I can say is that this what we used in China, its well understood and known there.  The practice methods are different the distinctions of what the practice is on are the ones I outlined.

 

The Ideas and concepts of yi, qi, shen are again in my experience very real and have different effects and use.

 

The original question was what the differences between practices of external arts, and internal ones.

 

I gave the ones we use,,,whether one agrees with it or not is kind of  mote.  Its not the subject. "

-----

 

Yes. And all that is correct. Anyone taking up martial arts, for example, will encounter this almost universally.

 

I'm writing about after you do that for half a century and more, and after thoughts like internal/external become different in the face of actual perception of experience.

 

These "things" dissolve into each other and leave something else there, smiling at you.

 

But you are very correct about people using this distinction just the way you wrote about it. And it is practical in that context.

 

I'm writing from another context.

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

[windwalker]

I'm writing about after you do that for half a century and more, and after thoughts like internal/external become different in the face of actual perception of experience.

I would suggest the more then likely we dont have the same perceptional experiences. 

They remain quite distinct and are source of endless discussion for many looking for it. 

 

The OP framed the context, from what other context would one answer it ?

[dogson]

Here's the most oversimplified version:

 

-internal is about cultivating chi / prana / bioenergy in the body

 

-external is about hitting things really hard.

[vonkrankenhaus]

Re:

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"The OP framed the context, from what other context would one answer it ?"

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The OP writes the following:

 

-----

"I think it is quite an interesting debate to see peoples opinions on the difference they see between internal practices and external practices.

So what are the differences?"

-----

 

I am writing one opinion, mine, on the difference I see between internal practices and external practices, after 45 years of considering and acting on this subject.

 

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"I would suggest the more then likely we dont have the same perceptional experiences."

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Excellent.

 

Then we are prepared to offer the OP "quite an interesting debate" as requested.

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

Edited February 25, 2015 by vonkrankenhaus

[windwalker]

you mention 45 yrs but dont really say what it was spent on or what you did during that time.

 

this talks of my  history http://www.morninglighttaiji.net/about.html

 

I really dont see what the debate would be about. The teachers that I've met would never suggest that in the end 

they some how come together as you stated. Each practice is quite different with different ideas and skill sets 

developed.

 

Can you share a little of your history, it might be helpful in understanding your view point. 

[flowing hands]

External: toughen the sinew, harden the bones, quicken the muscles, tit da practices.

 

Internal: soften the body, relax the sinew, strengthen the spirit and the jing; 'the soft and the yielding can overcome the hard and strong', qi gong, neigong,

 

In the school that I come from we start off with external and then we practice internal. Both 'work' affecting each practice, but there are many schools that are still very much categorized by their practices.

[vonkrankenhaus]

Re:

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"this talks of my  history http://www.morningli....net/about.html

 

I really dont see what the debate would be about. The teachers that I've met would never suggest that in the end 

they some how come together as you stated. Each practice is quite different with different ideas and skill sets 

developed.

 

Can you share a little of your history, it might be helpful in understanding your view point."

-----

 

Excellent.

 

I will write what the debate could be about, and it looks like you have enough experience to make it worthwhile for us to discuss, although anyone could also understand, and many here have somewhat similar experiences and background.

 

I will also add relevant history, to show why I learned what I have - but not too much, as I have already mentioned some in other posts.

 

Thank you for humoring me. I understand that the idea I have put forth is unusual. But I have had the experience of seeing many sifus doing very good gongfu and qigong, etc, but not really becoming free, and not really attaining very good health.

 

I spent a long time studying and testing how and why this happens.

 

-VonKrankenhaus

[windwalker]

I will also add relevant history, to show why I learned what I have - but not too much, as I have already mentioned some in other posts.

 

Thank you for humoring me. I understand that the idea I have put forth is unusual. But I have had the experience of seeing many sifus doing very good gongfu and qigong, etc, but not really becoming free, and not really attaining very good health.

 

As I mentioned a question was asked I put forth my answer based on my own work and experience, and of those whom I've met over the yrs. 

 

I dont quite understand what other shifu's having good health or not or being free, as anything to do with training methods, practices, or skill sets.   

 

It would be good to understand your back ground to help understand your view points. 

 

My only point is that they really are very different practices that dont lead to the same skill sets. 

A lot of this really depends on depth and skill level of the practice.  

 

a caveat,  In no  way do I feel one is better then the other, nor have I heard of this from others I've met or trained under.  The main point was to make a distinction of what each was and was not.  

Edited February 26, 2015 by morninglight

[vonkrankenhaus]

Re:

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"I dont quite understand what other shifu's having good health or not or being free, as anything to do with training methods, practices, or skill sets.  "

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That's an interesting statement, and I wanted to address it before continuing.

 

I must ask then, what is the purpose of their training?

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

[windwalker]

Re:

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"I dont quite understand what other shifu's having good health or not or being free, as anything to do with training methods, practices, or skill sets.  "

-----

 

That's an interesting statement, and I wanted to address it before continuing.

 

I must ask then, what is the purpose of their training?

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

Dont know, your the one who brought it up, maybe you should clarify why you thought it was important.

3 strikes and your out.

 

no more interest in continuing the Q&A   good you have 45yrs of doing something,,,best of luck with it.

[vonkrankenhaus]

Re:

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"Dont know, your the one who brought it up, maybe you should clarify why you thought it was important.

3 strikes and your out."

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I thank you for this fascinating response.

 

I apologize if I have confused anyone.

 

I thought it was important to know first what the purpose of internal/external training could be wherein health and freedom aren't applicable, or maybe, even comprehensible, before making distinctions in various internal/external training methods and what they lead to.

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

[Gerard]

You need to train your mind. The single most important thing.