MooNiNite Posted February 17, 2015 Is Pre-Heaven Qi lost forever? Is it possible to replenish it? Many say no, but is that absolute? Even if one cultivates the light body for example. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted February 17, 2015 Is Pre-Heaven Qi lost forever? Is it possible to replenish it? Many say no, but is that absolute? Even if one cultivates the light body for example. Excellent question as well as the concept in total. A long time ago here Stig and I had a rather short discussion of this. His question was basically the same as yours. My answer has not changed: Pre-Heaven Chi still exists. No, I don't think we can replenish it but Tao does. (But only after total destruction and cleansing. A return to Oneness.) The reason I suggest that we cannot is because there is nothing of us that is still Pre-Heaven Chi. All our (Chi) energy is modified in order to create our manifest form. However, Pre-Heaven Chi can and I believe does permiate everything throughout the universe. I won't say we can attain it or hold to it but I will say we can allow it to effect us by way of being totally open to the universe. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
allinone Posted February 17, 2015 Isn't preheaven energy, from earth? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted February 17, 2015 Isn't preheaven energy, from earth? Different people understand things differently. Pre (Before) Heaven. Before stars were created. That puts it next to Tao and before any manifestations. Manifestations are the result of the loss of (or modification of) original Chi. Remember; man follows Earth, Earth follows Heaven and Heaven follows Tao. From our physical body we must go backward into the past to find original Chi. 4 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LaoZiDao Posted February 17, 2015 Traditional Neidan methods are to restore pre heaven jingqishen. Marble is both right and wrong. If we had no preheaven Qi (Yuan Qi) we would not be alive. On its complete depletion comes death. Qi separate from Shen (Yin Shen emerges) still within Samsara. Before cultivate "lightbody" its first a requirement to restore Yuanjingqi, then join with Shen = what's called 2 Qi or Xing Ming merging = elixir = embryo of Yangshen = "light body". This is the basic schema found in Neidan classics and traditional schools. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ish Posted February 17, 2015 (edited) On 17/02/2015 at 11:22 AM, MooNiNite said: Quote Edited April 4, 2018 by Ish 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted February 17, 2015 Traditional Neidan methods are to restore pre heaven jingqishen. Marble is both right and wrong. If we had no preheaven Qi (Yuan Qi) we would not be alive. On its complete depletion comes death. Qi separate from Shen (Yin Shen emerges) still within Samsara. I can accept that. I use different names based solely on my understandings. "Yuan Qi" I normally call "Life Force" which is part personal Chi and part universal Chi. And yes, the loss of "Yuan Qi" equals death. Before cultivate "lightbody" its first a requirement to restore Yuanjingqi, then join with Shen = what's called 2 Qi or Xing Ming merging = elixir = embryo of Yangshen = "light body". This is the basic schema found in Neidan classics and traditional schools. I am ignorant regarding this so I cannot comment. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted February 17, 2015 The "light body" is highly refined pre heaven qi IMO . I can't go any further than I have already spoken. (Ignorance, you know.) Many stars, Tao, Nature, are pre heaven energies. Earth is post heaven energy i would say. However how does one reach the pre heaven energy? By refining of the post heaven. Should I say it? Hehehe. You caused me a brand new thought. How does one reach the pre-heaven energy? Man becomes one with Earth, Then Earth (with man) becomes one with the Heavens, Then the Heavens (with man and Earth) become one with Tao. And there you are. You haven't gone anywhere but you sure have moved. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Aetherous Posted February 17, 2015 Even Chinese Medicine works with yuan qi...the lower dantian area deals with it. If you're alive it's not lost, because your continued life depends on it. Is it possible to replenish it instead of just slowing its use? Some say yes. But theoretically that would mean you can live longer than a normal person, like beyond 120 years...and who has proof of that? Also, the Daoist neidan practitioners say that they do replenish it. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vonkrankenhaus Posted February 17, 2015 Re: ----- "Is Pre-Heaven Qi lost forever?" ----- Had you found it, and then lost it? ----- "Is it possible to replenish it?" ----- Has it ever been exhausted? -VonKrankenhaus 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MooNiNite Posted February 17, 2015 Even Chinese Medicine works with yuan qi...the lower dantian area deals with it. If you're alive it's not lost, because your continued life depends on it. Is it possible to replenish it instead of just slowing its use? Some say yes. But theoretically that would mean you can live longer than a normal person, like beyond 120 years...and who has proof of that? Also, the Daoist neidan practitioners say that they do replenish it. i find this interesting. The greatest masters live normal life spans. some up to 200 years (as far as i know), but rarely further. The big question is Do they die from pre-heaven exhaustion? Or maybe they die from....something else? old age i guess? but that wouldnt make sense if they had completely merged their physical body with the light (celestial immortal..) so why do they die?! maybe pre-heaven qi exhaustion.. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan Posted February 17, 2015 Is Pre-Heaven Qi lost forever? Is it possible to replenish it? Many say no, but is that absolute? Even if one cultivates the light body for example. Truth: I don't know. Idealization: Pre-Heaven Qi is kind of like a blueprint; or in relation to Post-Heaven, the underlying code tha operates the game. That being said, i don't see as to why not. Pre-Heaven is like a picture of perfect harmonious interaction, or in my mind, a fluid and moving and active perfect harmonious interaction; whereas post-heaven is a product of allowing the rules to be broken and subsequently pursuing (but not always achieving) return to pre-heaven. Prognosis: Pursue Pre-Heaven by not pursuing; do by not doing. Accomplish by never initiating; succeed by only responding in kind. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted February 17, 2015 (edited) so why do they die? They (we) die because we use up our life force. Sure, it's called old age. But the body has the capacity for allowing us to live a lot longer than most of us do. No, I don't have any answers. Edited February 17, 2015 by Marblehead Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LaoZiDao Posted February 17, 2015 i find this interesting. The greatest masters live normal life spans. some up to 200 years (as far as i know), but rarely further. The big question is Do they die from pre-heaven exhaustion? Or maybe they die from....something else? old age i guess? but that wouldnt make sense if they had completely merged their physical body with the light (celestial immortal..) so why do they die?! maybe pre-heaven qi exhaustion.. Most Martial Arts Masters die quite young I find, because they deplete their Yuanqi. If they are really celestial immortal they do not die, already before this stage its possible to be hundreds or even millions of years old. Chances of you hearing about or seeing such things is next to 0. Your not understanding basic Daoist theory. Maybe go and read Neijing for starters. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan Posted February 17, 2015 (edited) I still stand by my claim that i am a pre-heaven being in this post-heaven manifestation.I do not believe that pre-heaven was lost, but that manifestation has separated from pre-heaven; much like cells split apart. Edited February 17, 2015 by Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted February 17, 2015 I still stand by my claim that i am a pre-heaven being in this post-heaven manifestation. I do not believe that pre-heaven was lost, but that manifestation has separated from pre-heaven; much like cells split apart. This may be valid but I suggest that pre-Heaven Chi still exists. But we do need open ourself up so that there is a place for it to enter and perhaps even stay a while. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dawei Posted February 17, 2015 Is Pre-Heaven Qi lost forever? Is it possible to replenish it? Many say no, but is that absolute? Even if one cultivates the light body for example. No-Yes-No I think it is mixing up material body questions with light body ideas on some level... although there is no separation. Pre- and Post- are our perception of these energies... as separate... but they are linked and connected. I would more likely liken it to the car lights don't shine as much... you need to clean them to get a better shine... but the filament burns due to resistance and it will wear out. You'll need to discharge it at some point. Part of the problem is that the body can only contain so much light energy... it has a resistance. If you cultivate to the light body too far, you'll not want this body to hold that anyways... 4 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MooNiNite Posted February 17, 2015 Most Martial Arts Masters die quite young I find, because they deplete their Yuanqi. If they are really celestial immortal they do not die, already before this stage its possible to be hundreds or even millions of years old. Chances of you hearing about or seeing such things is next to 0. Your not understanding basic Daoist theory. Maybe go and read Neijing for starters. i trust John Chang, he said Bhodidharma lived to be 200, He also said Cheng San Geng lived to be 200 and died like any other man. These are some of the most powerful beings, nothing fancy like they are still alive and running around. No dead just like any other human, John Chang states this clear as day. People like John Chang can sense them and know all about them. These great celestial masters are dead, they just leave nothing behind. Also if you read Enter The Dragon Gate Wang Liping's master has died as well. This book also mentions several daoist masters..and Liping's teachers clearly state them dying. Iv seen the descriptions of how spiritual immortals can live a millennium...doesn't mean much compared to the actual masters themselves. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MooNiNite Posted February 17, 2015 I'v spoken with a master on this subject as well and he said it is not possible to live forever however, he also mentioned the didn't know why anyone would want to. Now that I think of it, all the great masters in India died at a reasonable age also...hey same with Tibet..hmm Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Aetherous Posted February 17, 2015 Maybe there is immortality of the light body, but not the physical one. Not like I know. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LaoZiDao Posted February 18, 2015 This may be valid but I suggest that pre-Heaven Chi still exists. But we do need open ourself up so that there is a place for it to enter and perhaps even stay a while. No pre-heaven Qi, no life. It definitely exists. To restore and keep Yuanqi(neidan) and reduce wastage(extensive sleeping, celibacy etc) are not the same things either. The latter still leads to death, ie: complete depletion of Yuanqi. To spend it, its happening at all times, lifestyle can reduce waste, Neidan methods can restore Yuanjingqi. 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Orion Posted February 18, 2015 (edited) You already live forever, it's just that your body and corporeal spirit don't. The point of extending the life of the body is to achieve a certain degree of attainment so that death becomes a smoother, conscious transition into the next chapter. It's done to extend the current workshop, so to speak, to maximize its potential. It's just more efficient to do it that way, having fever lives that are longer than a bunch of lives that are shorter. We spend much of our initial growth simply re-learning how to exist in the world, which takes up a lot of time depending on the circumstances of the rebirth. If you can live to 200 you can postpone having to go through all that as much. As for pre-heaven qi, I can't say I know for sure. My impression is that yes, we already have the seed of pre-heaven qi within us. How can we not if we are still part of the great ocean? Edited February 18, 2015 by Orion 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cheshire Cat Posted February 18, 2015 Is Pre-Heaven Qi lost forever? Is it possible to replenish it? Many say no, but is that absolute? Even if one cultivates the light body for example. Apart from bizarre philosophical daoist theories which relies upon abstruse and unverifiable concepts, we could consider that the quantity of one's pre-heaven Qi manifests the natural life-span in the absence of depleting conditions, strong illnesses or traumatic events. Therefore, to understand what pre-heaven Qi is to understand the key factor of ageing. But, from a scientific point of view, we have just theories that you can easily find summed up in some article online. imho. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
voidisyinyang Posted February 18, 2015 If you obtain enlightenment that means the pineal gland is opened up - the pineal gland is the Cavity of Prenatal Vitality (Pre-birth qi). So with an opened pineal gland then you can access the Emptiness that has unified energy of spirit-vitality or Prenatal shen-qi energy and with that access you can then restore the energy. The book Taoist Yoga: Alchemy and Immortality teaches how to do this - basically if you start from the Emptiness as a philosophy then you can rebuild that connection of Prenatal Spirit (Yuan Shen) as the front channel of the small universe descending from the CAvity of Spirit (the heart) with the Prenatal Vitality (Yuan Qi) as the back channel of the small universe. If you have "evil thoughts" this causes the Yuan Qi of the pineal gland to be triggered and sent down the spine which then converts the Yuan Jing into fluid for reproduction. So that is what must be reversed by focus on the Emptiness. The "evil thoughts" also occur by the Yuan Shen going out of the eyes via the heart - the Yuan Shen and Yuan Qi both originate in the heart from the two sides of the heart. So this original unity gets separated in the postnatal breathing. You can study the Taoist Yoga book for more details. 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michael Sternbach Posted February 18, 2015 (edited) It is an interesting thought that one could continuously replenish one's qi from the universal qi, thus becoming relatively immortal. There are stories about some Alchemists having achieved this also in Western countries. Surely, there is little evidence. But being immortal, it would be preferable not to let too many people know about it, right? I could also imagine that at a certain stage of spiritual evolution, one might be able to transform one's physical body and "ascend" to other planes without dying in the usual sense. Perhaps, one could then even return to Earth in the same body as one wishes. It's fun to imagine these things... Edited February 18, 2015 by Michael Sternbach Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
