Pre-Heaven Qi, lost forever?

[NotVoid]

It seems to me that if it is conceivable it may be possible, but there are so many possibilities... Maybe there are many possibilities we can't even conceive of...

[Marblehead]

It seems to me that if it is conceivable it may be possible, but there are so many possibilities... Maybe there are many possibilities we can't even conceive of...

Yeah, I just threw that in there hoping to get the discussion back to the discussion of Chi and even perhaps pre-heaven Chi.

 

Discussions of universal consciousness come around now and again and I always end up opposing the possibility of the concept.  I could support the possibility of such an esssence if those I speak with used Chi as the foundation of their argument but as well as I can remember no one has done this yet.  Most want to personify some type of god and Atheists don't say many positive things about the concept of gods.

 

Possibilities (potential, the "wu" state, the Mystery) are unlimited.  Again I suggest that we should never deny the possibility of anything in the future.  But then I remind all that we are living in the now moment, not the future.

[allinone]

Yeah, I just threw that in there hoping to get the discussion back to the discussion of Chi and even perhaps pre-heaven Chi.

 

Discussions of universal consciousness come around now and again and I always end up opposing the possibility of the concept.  I could support the possibility of such an esssence if those I speak with used Chi as the foundation of their argument but as well as I can remember no one has done this yet.  Most want to personify some type of god and Atheists don't say many positive things about the concept of gods.

 

Possibilities (potential, the "wu" state, the Mystery) are unlimited.  Again I suggest that we should never deny the possibility of anything in the future.  But then I remind all that we are living in the now moment, not the future.

 

Does it matter if you talk about chi or someone else talks about god?

 

both don't have any connection with reality. In this moment you have nothing, I would start from there and try to throw concepts away.

 

Being brave enough to admit that previous achivements done are nothing and no point clinging to them. It should be easy for you to do since you don't believe in reincarnation or future life.

 

But you can't do it because there is nothing there, your mind is born from those things you want to get rid off, it can't destroy itself.

Edited March 5, 2015 by allinone

[allinone]

to be ot, different types of qi are names for different stages you go through for realising your own ground or self and then merging it with the reality itself.

 

preheaven qi is proably the wrapped up mind with concepts(variety of qi's).

 

preheaven- "pre" means before "heaven" is above earth. So it is qi from earth.

Edited March 5, 2015 by allinone

[Marblehead]

Oh, No!!!  Another one who wishes to teach me!

Does it matter if you talk about chi or someone else talks about god?

You may talk about the gods all you wish.  You wouldn't be talking about them with me though because I don't talk about things I don't believe exist.

 

both don't have any connection with reality.

This, of course, is not true.  Energy (Chi) is constantly being used by my brain and the rest of my body.  Without energy I could do nothing.

 

In this moment you have nothing,

Funny.  I have everything I need and want.  I even have peace and contentment. 

 

I would start from there and try to throw concepts away.

Why should I start over?  I have already passed all my tests and have "aced" most of them.  Or were you speaking for yourself there?

 

Being brave enough to admit that previous achivements done are nothing and no point clinging to them.

You are so very wrong there.  My previous achievements have led me to my perfect condition.  And NO!, I'm not going to fucking give you all my money.  I will cling to that.  I will also cling tightly to my sword that I was able to buy because I clung to my money.

 

It should be easy for you to do since you don't believe in reincarnation or future life.

No, it was not easy, attaining what I have.  I freakin' had to work for everything I have.  And I had to pay for every one of my mistakes because I accepted the responsibilty for those mistakes.

 

One no longer needs search when one has already found what they were looking for.

 

Perhaps you could take some of your own advice?

 

BTW  The Tooth Fairy and Easter Bunny really don't exist.  It was your mother doing those things.

[Marblehead]

Thanks for getting back on topic.

 

to be ot, different types of qi are names for different stages you go through for realising your own ground or self and then merging it with the reality itself.

 

preheaven qi is proably the wrapped up mind with concepts(variety of qi's).

 

preheaven- "pre" means before "heaven" is above earth. So it is qi from earth.

I don't do the detailed study of Qi so I am limited to what I can say.  I learned enough to satisfy my questioning mind and that was all I needed or wanted.

 

I do differentiate between "universal" and "individual" Qi because this is my understanding.

 

You may be right about different types of Qi from the individual perspective but I cannot speak to that.

 

I don't agree with your last paragraph but that doesn't matter as I wouldn't be able to discuss the opposition very well.  I have previously presented my understanding regarding what "pre-heaven" Qi is.

[allinone]

Thanks for getting back on topic.

 

I don't do the detailed study of Qi so I am limited to what I can say.  I learned enough to satisfy my questioning mind and that was all I needed or wanted.

 

I do differentiate between "universal" and "individual" Qi because this is my understanding.

 

You may be right about different types of Qi from the individual perspective but I cannot speak to that.

 

I don't agree with your last paragraph but that doesn't matter as I wouldn't be able to discuss the opposition very well.  I have previously presented my understanding regarding what "pre-heaven" Qi is.

 

Purifying oneself from dirty thoughts and with discipline its possible to intuite right thinking and method.

There is no point discussing something else other than how it all fit together into one word or sound.

At the end it sounds like a gospel. true that.

[Marblehead]

Purifying oneself from dirty thoughts and with discipline its possible to intuite right thinking and method.

There is no point discussing something else other than how it all fit together into one word or sound.

At the end it sounds like a gospel. true that.

Too late for purity for me.  Dirty thoughts?  Hehehe.  That depends on with whom I am sharing them.  Beyond good and evil (beyond dualities) they are only thoughts.

 

I guess I have practiced right thinking as I am at peace with my Self.

 

And yes, our thoughts are energy (Chi) but they are NOT, in almost all cases, pre-heaven thoughts.  There aren't even thoughts is pre-heaven Chi.

 

I don't do gospels, sorry.

[allinone]

Too late for purity for me.  Dirty thoughts?  Hehehe.  That depends on with whom I am sharing them.  Beyond good and evil (beyond dualities) they are only thoughts.

 

I guess I have practiced right thinking as I am at peace with my Self.

 

And yes, our thoughts are energy (Chi) but they are NOT, in almost all cases, pre-heaven thoughts.  There aren't even thoughts is pre-heaven Chi.

 

I don't do gospels, sorry.

 

your thinking is not beyond duality, they have value, weight. Your thoughts have not much value or have too much weight since they have made you stop searching, living. These thoughts are preheaven. 

 

Post-heaven are thoughts what you think what your state is, peaceful.

[Marblehead]

your thinking is not beyond duality, they have value, weight. Your thoughts have not much value or have too much weight since they have made you stop searching, living. These thoughts are preheaven. 

Oh, My!  You see much more than I have shown you.

 

Stopped living, you suggest?  Tell that to my aching bones and muscles.

 

But yes, I have stopped searching after I realized that there was nothing to search for.

 

Non-dualistic thoughts, in my opinion, are pre-heaven thoughts; pre-heaven Chi.

 

Post-heaven are thoughts what you think what your state is, peaceful.

Hehehe.  I "know" my state is peaceful.  And yes, I dwell with the spirit of the valley.  (She is pre-heaven Chi.)

[allinone]

Oh, My!  You see much more than I have shown you.

 

Stopped living, you suggest?  Tell that to my aching bones and muscles.

 

But yes, I have stopped searching after I realized that there was nothing to search for.

 

Non-dualistic thoughts, in my opinion, are pre-heaven thoughts; pre-heaven Chi.

 

Hehehe.  I "know" my state is peaceful.  And yes, I dwell with the spirit of the valley.  (She is pre-heaven Chi.)

 

I wonder who talked you into materialism and atheism? Or how you end upped being a rejector of ideas what can't be proved yet.

 

edit:im out, was nice to talk.

Edited March 6, 2015 by allinone

[Marblehead]

I wonder who talked you into materialism and atheism? Or how you end upped being a rejector of ideas what can't be proved yet.

 

edit:im out, was nice to talk.

I will respond to that.

 

No one talked me into being an Atheist.  It came naturally.  Mostly based on my observing life in general and especially the actions and reactions of those who professed to be religious.

 

And yes, I felt very comfortable when I first started reading Nietzsche.

 

Rejecting the umprovable is based on my life experiences as well.  I heard so much bullshit in my early years regarding who could do what and when showtime came nothing happened.  And this is becoming even worse today what with the internet and all the available information people learn and tell you what all they know but yet can't do anything on their own.

 

If you can't do it don't say that you know how to do it.

 

So, botton line, I am a self-created Materialist and Atheist.  I also like calling myself a Taoist.

[Marblehead]

Fair questions.

Unprovable?

 

What if the truth was so fine, so delicate, so muted that it would take a lifetime (or less) to hear?

When the truth reveals itself to me, then, and only then, will I accept it.

 

If someone tells me such and such is so I may accept it as a possibility unless I already have first-hand knowledge opposing it.  Once this 'such and such' has been proven to my satisfaction I would then accept it as fact.

 

Would you have the faith and commitment to discover it?

Remember, there is no faith here.  Commitment?  Absolutely.  Most things I know I have discovered on my own through personal experiences.  But I will replace your word "faith" with "reason" and then say:

 

Yes, if I had reason I would have commitment to discover it.

 

 

To the Chapter,

 

I can see many of the processes of Tao.  There is no form that causes these processes unless we want to assign that to TzuJan (Ziran).

 

Sure, I will stop to listen to music.  I will also stop to listen to silence.

 

I will stop to look at something I find pleasing but yet I will also stop to look at nothing.

 

My Materialism does not negate spiritualism.  But my spiritualism is linked directly to pre-heaven Chi.

[Marblehead]

Maybe 'the finest, subtlest knowing', without the rational mind understanding, is better. I can only explain from my own experience. 

 

Best --

Yes, I understand what you are saying but I can't speak to that stuff because then I would no longer be the hard core Materialist around here.

[allinone]

I will respond to that.

 

No one talked me into being an Atheist.  It came naturally.  Mostly based on my observing life in general and especially the actions and reactions of those who professed to be religious.

 

And yes, I felt very comfortable when I first started reading Nietzsche.

 

Rejecting the umprovable is based on my life experiences as well.  I heard so much bullshit in my early years regarding who could do what and when showtime came nothing happened.  And this is becoming even worse today what with the internet and all the available information people learn and tell you what all they know but yet can't do anything on their own.

 

If you can't do it don't say that you know how to do it.

 

So, botton line, I am a self-created Materialist and Atheist.  I also like calling myself a Taoist.

 

could you walk with someone, who doesn't fit your standards, amongst people who you admire.

 

are you able to open your heart to the things you feel shame. accepting people who have found god and follow their instruction to recieve god in you too.

[Marblehead]

could you walk with someone, who doesn't fit your standards, amongst people who you admire.

 

are you able to open your heart to the things you feel shame. accepting people who have found god and follow their instruction to recieve god in you too.

My best friend is a Christian.

 

My next door neighbor and his family are Christians and I help them out on occasion and give the father money at Christmas time so they can buy gifts for their kids.  (They got caught in the real estate/finance BS and don't have a lot of money.  But both husband and wife work and are trying their best to get out of the hole they got into.)

 

I have not direct problem with religious people of any religion except when they try to force their beliefs on me.  Then I strongly resist.  And no, I wouldn't go out for a walk with those types.

 

I go out to eat occasionally with my best friend and I always wait to eat until after he has said his prayers.

 

I do not preach my disbelief.  My Atheism is mine and that is all.  But I do, in conversation, when religion is mentioned, state that I am an Atheist.  Sometimes, just to not offend people I state that I am a Taoist.  Most have no idea what that is.

[Marblehead]

Hopefully we will get back to talking about pre-heaven Chi pretty soon.

[Stosh]

Exactly ,

What is the heaven aspect which one must consider exists? for pre-heaven chi to exist before ,

and what happened to the chi making it now be post heaven (or concurrent heaven)  chi? 

Being atheist myself .. what or where is heaven? 

[Marblehead]

Exactly ,

What is the heaven aspect which one must consider exists? for pre-heaven chi to exist before ,

and what happened to the chi making it now be post heaven (or concurrent heaven)  chi? 

Being atheist myself .. what or where is heaven? 

Yep.  You got us back there.  With some tough questions too.  I hope I can do them justice.

 

To the last question first (the easiest); NO matter where we are on the planet when we look up we are looking toward heaven, that is, the rest of the cosmos.  Really nothing all that special until one starts wondering about Taoist "wu", which is the unmanifest universe.  Lots of energy (Chi) up there; lots of potential.

 

When speaking of heaven one can separate the manifest aspect from the mystery.  We can logically investigate the manifest but we can never investigate the unmanifest with logical thinking.  To understand that there is energy throughout the universe that we cannot detect should be a given.  (Science is calling it "Dark Energy".)  (There is also "Dark Matter" that is undefinable at the present time by science.)  Both these are energy and I will call them both Chi.

 

Pre-heaven Chi would be all the energy of the universe prior to any manifestations, that is, before any stars were born.  This is pure Chi.  And although I have no support for thinking so, I believe that there is a lot of Chi (first phase energy) that still exists; that has never been transmutated into any manifest form.

 

Post-heaven Chi would be the energy within, or rather, that has created, the Ten Thousand Things.  It is still energy, but it has been acted upon by other post-heaven Chi and therefore altered from the pure state.  Our individual Chi is post-heaven Chi.  But universal Chi permeates all things.  It is constantly passing through us.  The big question (which I will not speak to) is:  Can we utilize this Chi while it is within our essence?

[Stosh]

So you believe the energy potential of volition and experience or consciousness, predate the material universe,, constitute the mathematically expected dark energy,, and one encounters this in meditation?

if yes,,

 I would think that since we obviously we employ volition and experience to create a different future (alternate to that which would happen through classical physics) we do utilize this pre-heaven Chi,, aka dark energy. 

 

( Im not saying this is my own paradigm though , - I'm just saying how I would imagine it to work if it were ... if that's clear.)  

[Marblehead]

So you believe the energy potential of volition and experience or consciousness, predate the material universe,, constitute the mathematically expected dark energy,, and one encounters this in meditation?

Yes.  However, I think we should not add to nor take away from this basic information.  The key word is "potential".

 

if yes,,

 I would think that since we obviously we employ volition and experience to create a different future (alternate to that which would happen through classical physics) we do utilize this pre-heaven Chi,, aka dark energy. 

Logically assumed.  Although rather than your word "do" I would suggest "can".

 

( Im not saying this is my own paradigm though , - I'm just saying how I would imagine it to work if it were ... if that's clear.)  

Sure.  We have thoughts but many times they are not clear enough or we don't have enough support to say that "this is what I believe".

[Stosh]

Sure.  We have thoughts but many times they are not clear enough or we don't have enough support to say that "this is what I believe".

 

If youre speaking for yourself thats fine , for me though I'm just entertaining this scenario as you present it, and making what I see to be the logical extension of it. My own certitude runs out along with the solid ground.

 

This pre-heaven chi, well it suggests an infinite progression of pre pre heaven chi , and pre pre pre heaven chi and so forth,, which seems a useless speculation..Is this the adding to it which you dont want to do?

 

Why do you want to be distinct about the can use dark energy , vs do ?

Edited March 11, 2015 by Stosh

[Marblehead]

Sure.  We have thoughts but many times they are not clear enough or we don't have enough support to say that "this is what I believe".

 

If youre speaking for yourself thats fine , for me though I'm just entertaining this scenario as you present it, and making what I see to be the logical extension of it. My own certitude runs out along with the solid ground.

Yep, I always speak only for myself and oftentimes I don't even know what I mean when I say something.

 

Yes, we will always have responding thoughts to what someone else has said.

 

And true with me as well, solid ground is where we live.

 

This pre-heaven chi, well it suggests an infinite progression of pre pre heaven chi , and pre pre pre heaven chi and so forth,, which seems a useless speculation..

While I don't disagree with what you have said here, we cannot go backward to before the Big Bang (the beginning of this beginning).  So pre-pre is redundant.

 

Energy exists.  We know that.  The forms it take on over time are somewhat identifiable, within limits.  Energy was used prior to our birth to create us, we use energy every day of our life, and after we die we produce energy until it is all utilized.  How we use energy while we are alive is the only thing that really matters.

[Stosh]

Ok,

having identified what pre-heaven chi is, related that to modern conceptry, and tied it to the the human meditative or conscious experience, is there anything left to say about it? 

[Marblehead]

Ok,

having identified what pre-heaven chi is, related that to modern conceptry, and tied it to the the human meditative or conscious experience, is there anything left to say about it? 

I already talk enough; I don't need prompting.  Hehehe.

 

From my perspective there is nothing more I can say in response to the existing posts to this point. 

 

I would have enjoyed hearing a little more from those who do energy work.