question

[zerostao]

z

Edited March 4, 2015 by zerostao

[dawei]

You posted this thread twice ... maybe didn't even know it...  As irony will have it, I deleted the duplicate   

 

We did do a forum clean up starting about six months ago... folks were editing out posts and leaving "..."  all over the place like bread crumbs.

 

In one example, myself:  I deleted about 60 posts in ONE buddhist thread as it was a war zone of edited out posts...  now it reads smoother.

[zerostao]

thanks 

Edited March 4, 2015 by zerostao

[C T]

Its great this was brought up because similar thoughts had occurred to me, and i was actually contemplating and mentally preparing to write a note to Sean as regards to Flo's competency as a current member of the moderating/admin team. 

 

Its not just what transpired in the latest debacle and farce of a thread she started and later had it deleted without so much as given a moment's thought of the consequences of such an irresponsible move but a stark, almost blasé tendency to do as she pleases with member's posts that brings into question her competency. 

 

While i can sympathise with her personal issues, it would be very much appreciated if she could demonstrate a certain level of maturity required so as to understand clearly how not to allow that to cloud her judgement so as to be able to retain her sense of duty as a mod, which i know is a thankless task at the best of times, but this is besides the point. 

 

And to compound this latter development (wrt to that thread she started) we have Dawei and Soaring Crane stepping up to the plate to defend an apparent oversight, not one which draws attention to her personal difficulties that might justify the deletion of the entire thread, but one which props up a glaring discrepancy: Since there were no rules broken, no insults made, no threats exchanged, etc.. and posters were all behaving within the boundary of TDB regulations, on what grounds were found reasonable cause to delete mine and other members' posts other than those of the OP (as per her request)? 

 

Even the manner in which Rex's thread were locked by Soaring Crane after putting in the last word (calling into question participants' motives and implying that we are not fit to argue for the thread to remain accessible) is dubious, to say the least. 

 

I have been a member of TDB since 2009, and this is the first time that i find it necessary to actually confront an issue of this nature, for the very reason that i value the continued good name that TDB has as a forum for spiritual discussions and information exchange. 

[dawei]

thanks for deleting my duplicate thread , all kinds of computer glitches on my end lately.

i dont follow the logic of going back and cleaning up old threads.

the pit seems a useful space to place unsightly threads.

and i have noticed threads getting locked quickly lately.

 

I sometimes clean my house too

 

The cleanup was mostly [supposed to be for ] for posts with no content.   So, nothing to split.

 

I also notice the last many months have been quite an agitated state among posters...   people calling other people out... the tech area has tons of closed posts... never seems like that was the case so much before...  oh well. 

[zerostao]

z

Edited March 4, 2015 by zerostao

[Flolfolil]

...

Edited March 5, 2015 by Flolfolil

[Flolfolil]

...

Edited March 5, 2015 by Flolfolil

[Bubbles]

No need, i will step down on my own.  You win.

 

That's unfortunate, Flo.

 

Being part of the moderation team is being exposed to the constant suspicion of misappropriating and misusing the position for personal interests. The word used for what mods can do is "privilege"; but anyone who has been part of the mod staff for some time knows that there is no real 'privileges', only capacities given to serve the forums and enforce the rules to the best of one's ability. And no one sees the daunting task of moderating. I hardly see any privilege in being able to hide an insulting post or hiding a thread when its content reveals too much of a member's intimacy.The mods are seen like being a kind of clique where people all agree to take power. But reality behind the screen is not like that. Mods often disagree with each other. 

 

Not only mods are working for the forums and not for themselves, not only the work is not especially a pleasant one, but they are on top of that regularly attacked for not doing this as perfectly as members would like. Come on..

[zerostao]

z

Edited March 4, 2015 by zerostao

[Trunk]

I feel moved to speak only re: the hiding of the extinguishing sexuality thread, and member's contrary reaction.  Speaking as a human and a member.

 

One: Brave.  I haven't seen anyone post that personal of a thread here for more than a decade.  To post something open, exposing very personal, honest, asking for help ... Brave.  When that happens it is a PRIVILEGE to participate in someone's process of wound and potential healing.  When that happens we are LUCKY to be able to participate in that level of personal conversation.  It (potentially) elevates us (depending on how we act).  and is, of course, very sensitive, personal, sacred ground.

 

When someone does that with me I see my role as one to help (if possible, perhaps merely by listening), period, at the discretion of that person.

 

To put up a fuss when that thread was hidden, seems very cruel, astonishingly inconsiderate, incredibly selfish to me...  I have to say, particularly from those who have taken compassion and non-attachment as some of their highest values.  To attack Flo specifically about the topic of the generation and hiding of that thread seems just naturally reprehensible to me... a disservice to personal process.

 

Very few of us have been so brave, honest, open on this forum.

Respect!

 

 

p.s.

Not every situation can be explicitly predicted in rules.  That's why the admin has broad discretion to do whatever they see fit in unforeseen situations (which, you'd know if you've been on staff, come up every few months or so).

Edited February 20, 2015 by Trunk

[dawei]

Being part of the moderation team is being exposed to the constant suspicion of misappropriating and misusing the position for personal interests. The word used for what mods can do is "privilege"; but anyone who has been part of the mod staff for some time knows that there is no real 'privileges', only capacities given to serve the forums and enforce the rules to the best of one's ability. And no one sees the daunting task of moderating. I hardly see any privilege in being able to hide an insulting post or hiding a thread when its content reveals too much of a member's intimacy.The mods are seen like being a kind of clique where people all agree to take power. But reality behind the screen is not like that. Mods often disagree with each other. 

 

Not only mods are working for the forums and not for themselves, not only the work is not especially a pleasant one, but they are on top of that regularly attacked for not doing this as perfectly as members would like. Come on..

 

This is wonderful put and insightful.  

 

Modding is not for everyone.  I've had several decline... and I still hear them laughing today at the idea to put yourself up with a target on their back.  

 

Flo came back for a second tour from a first one which was not so pleasant...  and to borrow from Trunk, it was brave to test these waters again.   And I wanted it as I felt it would actually work out and be good for Flo to see that second chances can work out...  and it has... until one feels the target shooting going on...

[rex]

Well since discussion of the locked sex drive thread has bled into this thread and there are clearly snide oblique references to me I shall like to make the following statements:

 

1) I do not mind that the thread was removed - especially given the reason, which I did state;

2) I do not mind that my paltry contributions were lost;

3) I did mind that there was no announcement that the thread was being removed, that no announcement was seen as necessary and pointed out how this reflected on moderating standards;

4) I do mind that moderator standards and tactics exhibited were emotive and vexatious;

5) I do regret that the debate on a shift in moderatoring standards was conflated with a posters personal issues;

6) I apologise to Flo for not having the mindfulness to see 5) above and start a new thread instead.

Edited February 20, 2015 by rex

[C T]

I am really disappointed that no one actually understands the premise of the objection raised. 

 

It is not about Flo, as an individual, as an individual who may be currently experiencing a rough patch, or the exceptional work Flo has contributed to TDB that merits the greatest respect. 

 

Please look at the issue without any emotional coloration. 

 

Alluding to Flo being targeted is completely unfounded and is merely a figment of the imagination. It is baseless due to the sheer fact that there is no history to base on. Has anyone (or me) ever called Flo out before, save this one time? Moreover, i would have done the same with anyone else who took it upon themselves to act in such a manner as to impinge on my rights vis-a-vis removing my responses and posts without prior consultation. Such actions are unfortunately open to criticism, and that is precisely what i am doing - questioning the action, and not the person, but if Flo wants to make it personal, thats completely up to her. 

 

Everyone goofs up. Its not so hard to admit where judgement has slacked and face it squarely that perhaps there was an error made; that would garner more respect, rather than arguing for a lost cause with completely irrelevant and misdirected notions, as in, "You win" or "Where is the compassion and non-attachment"? Sure, compassion and non-attachment, and also equanimity, are sterling qualities, but these should never, ever be used as an excuse not to question someone's actions. Questioning an action, or a moderator's competency based on that specific action is different from an accusation of wrong-doing. Everyone who post here must take this as the yardstick to reflect on the issue at hand, simply because it is the principled thing to do. 

 

Dont make this into a personal thing cos doing so will not lead to a virtuous resolution. 

Edited February 20, 2015 by C T

[zerostao]

z

Edited March 4, 2015 by zerostao

[sean]

I'd like to weigh in here and say that I think this issue, as well as many other administration and moderation issues here at TDB are ultimately a result of poor leadership and lack of guiding structure on my end.

 

In the early days I was the only admin here, and I relied entirely on my own instincts. One "benevolent dictator". And I believe, for the most part, this worked relatively well at the time.

 

Yet as we've expanded the (ever shifting) support team I've tried (for years now) to retain and transmit this "just go with your gut" approach.

 

The problem is, with multiple moderators, stewards, admins, tech support, etc., there are too many gut instincts and not enough unambiguous principles on how we, as a team, have collectively agreed to respond to various situations.

 

It's become absolutely clear to me that the forum needs an articulated set of guidelines for participation and rules for moderation.

 

To this end I've started an initial draft that I'm pretty happy with and begun a conversation with the current admins to flesh it out further, iron out the kinks and get a version 1 up in the next few weeks. 

 

Meanwhile, I'd like to sincerely apologize for any distress this has caused the community, including the moderation team.

 

Flolfolil, I'd like to invite you to postpone any decision around resignation until after we get the new guidelines written up. Perhaps you will resonate with and feel safer within a new, more coherent structure for moderation here.

 

Best,

Sean

[dawei]

Dont make this into a personal thing cos doing so will not lead to a virtuous resolution. 

 

Viruous resolution...  interesting wording.

 

 

would it of been better to have moved to Flo's PPF?

[Bubbles]

I am really disappointed that no one actually understands the premise of the objection raised. 

 

It is not about Flo, as an individual, as an individual who may be currently experiencing a rough patch, or the exceptional work Flo has contributed to TDB that merits the greatest respect. 

 

Please look at the issue without any emotional coloration. 

 

Alluding to Flo being targeted is completely unfounded and is merely a figment of the imagination. It is baseless due to the sheer fact that there is no history to base on. Has anyone (or me) ever called Flo out before, save this one time? Moreover, i would have done the same with anyone else who took it upon themselves to act in such a manner as to impinge on my rights vis-a-vis removing my responses and posts without prior consultation. Such actions are unfortunately open to criticism, and that is precisely what i am doing - questioning the action, and not the person, but if Flo wants to make it personal, thats completely up to her. 

 

Everyone goofs up. Its not so hard to admit where judgement has slacked and face it squarely that perhaps there was an error made; that would garner more respect, rather than arguing for a lost cause with completely irrelevant and misdirected notions, as in, "You win" or "Where is the compassion and non-attachment"? Sure, compassion and non-attachment, and also equanimity, are sterling qualities, but these should never, ever be used as an excuse not to question someone's actions. Questioning an action, or a moderator's competency based on that specific action is different from an accusation of wrong-doing. Everyone who post here must take this as the yardstick to reflect on the issue at hand, simply because it is the principled thing to do. 

 

Dont make this into a personal thing cos doing so will not lead to a virtuous resolution. 

 

I completely understand what you are saying but perhaps people have different standards.

 

For example, I don't care at all about my posts being deleted or hidden if the mod team feels it right to do so according to the situation. I mean I don't have any sense of ownership towards my posts in this regard. And in the specific case of Flo, I can see why Flo as a member felt necessary to ask for the entire thread to be hidden. The fact that it had been done without prior notice etc.doesn't bother me at all.

 

I don't think it is so important to discuss and question mods action: the intention was good (Preserving Flo's intimacy, privacy and feelings), even if some here find the means and manner were not tasteful to them.

 

Best,

[Trunk]

I just felt moved to pipe up for Flo ... in a humanity kind of way, little to do with rules at all.  Maybe off-topic here, maybe misinterpreted intent of some, but I popped off anyway.    Said my piece.

 

Clearly there are legit rule issues to sort out and oddly I feel little along that line, and am practically not engaged either, figure that that'll get sorted out with current staff.

Edited February 20, 2015 by Trunk

[C T]

would it of been better to have moved to Flo's PPF?

Sorry, move what to Flo's ppf? The thread in question? If it is, its a little too late now to be pondering such a move. 

[dawei]

Sorry, move what to Flo's ppf? The thread in question? If it is, its a little too late now to be pondering such a move. 

 

why too late?

[soaring crane]

 

4) I do mind that moderator standards and tactics exhibited were emotive and vexatious;

 

Vexatious? That's a very strong word and I don't think it's justified here in the least. In fact, I want to question your understanding of just how severe it is, and hope you don't mean it quite literally. Regardless, we're all amateurs here, trying to do the best for the most people, and as the old saying goes, if you think you can do better, please do.

 

Maybe some day you'll need someone to go to bat for you here and the person to do it will be one of us (or whatever the mod team is on that day).

 

fwiw, Rex, your original post was completely understandable and reasonable, and would have got a perfectly reasonable response if someone from staff had had a chance to reply before the attacks began. Go back to it and see if you can recognize where it first took a sour, negative turn. It didn't take long.

 

And when the honest explanation from Dawei came, it was met with more baseless accusations. In other forums, threads disappear all the time, with no discussion, no explanation. Maybe that's where we're headed -- anonymous, faceless, ruthless moderation with no voice for the members to quesiton or participate in the decision-making process. Boy, I sure hope not.

 

Back to the original topic: The very existence of Flo's thread simply became painful to Flo. Can any of you see that? Can you appreciate the level of desperation a person has to feel in order to even start a thread like that? What's more important to you? A couple paragraphs of text that you wrote once in the internet, or a person's well-being?

[rex]

Yes vexatious. Soaring Crane this needs to be taken to another so as not to have another conflation.

[C T]

why too late?

What would be the purpose, and motive, behind this consideration? 

 

To be frank, Flo can do whatever she wants with the contents she posted, and i, as well as most members here i would assume, like to be accorded the same right. 

 

Whatever i choose to write and post here is my intellectual property, and if no rules have been contravened in the format in which any of my posts have been presented, i'd really appreciate it if whoever's concerned not treat any of it mindlessly, more so from one who has been assigned to moderate/administer the board. Im sure, being Admin, you will be the first to empathise with such a sentiment. 

[dawei]

What would be the purpose, and motive, behind this consideration? 

 

It would be a compromise...  

 

To be frank, Flo can do whatever she wants with the contents she posted, and i, as well as most members here i would assume, like to be accorded the same right. 

 

Except a PPD doesn't follow that guideline.

 

Whatever i choose to write and post here is my intellectual property

 

Deci seemed to want to argue the same idea...  I don't think that floats

 

, and if no rules have been contravened in the format in which any of my posts have been presented, i'd really appreciate it if whoever's concerned not treat any of it mindlessly, more so from one who has been assigned to moderate/administer the board. Im sure, being Admin, you will be the first to empathise with such a sentiment. 

 

yes, but I empathize with a much bigger issue/problem which is private and which I cannot share.  Such is the life of an Admin at times.

 

So we will likely not find a middle ground but have our two perspectives.