Taoism and Mormonism

[arnquist]

I'm interested in Taoism in a philosophical and religious way. I used to be Mormon and I've been searching for years for a religion that has some of the same guiding moral principles without the mythology. A practical world view, open-minded, but not too superstitious. Taoism seems like the answer, but I'd like to continue exploring and testing it. I hope I can find people here who will help me on my journey and discuss some ideas with me.

 

When I first started doubting my faith and looking for answers I turned to Christianity, which didn’t feel right to me because of the whole heaven and hell division. Then I found Taoism, and I love it. I looked in many other places for answers but always remembered Taoism, and now I've come back to it again, ready to take a closer look. The ancient Taoism taught by Lao Tzu in the Tao Te Ching is beautiful. The Tao Te Ching advocates loving others, not denying our physical needs but also not over indulging, living in the present, being diplomatic, being humble and democratic in positions of power… this book is one of the oldest books on the planet, certainly older than the Bible, and it’s from a time and culture I know almost nothing about, but I agree with every word of it! It makes a lot more sense than any other religious text I’ve read.

 

But I still have some problems with it. One thing I would miss is the organization. Mormons are setup all over the world in communities that know each other and look out for each other, whether you're a member or not. I don't see that in Taoism. I would also miss the familiarity. I can tell you all about Mormonism, but when I try to tell people about Taoism I end up getting confused and frustrated.

 

Sometimes I wonder if I'm misinterpreting Taoism. So, the Tao is the driving principle of the universe, it symbolizes change, it's like flowing water, constantly changing. Over time water even conquers rocks, eroding them away. Yin and yang are pairs of opposites like hot and cold, man and woman, light and dark. Good typically follows from a balance of yin and yang, and evil often follows from imbalance. Not everything is so easily divided into yin and yang, there are shades of gray in between. So, here are some issues I've wondered about.

 

Homosexuality

In Mormonism, as with most Christian sects, it's a sin. Even in Taoism it could be seen as bad if you think of it as two yangs with no yin or two yins with no yang, thus creating an imbalance. But maybe the Tao is actually at work here on a grander scale, gays don't have kids thus balancing out people who have too many kids and overpopulate the planet?

 

Preaching

Through most of my childhood I looked forward to serving a mission. Going out and telling the world the mysteries of the universe, the truth, a message that would make them happy and change life for the better. I wish I could still do that, but Taoism just doesn't offer answers that people wanna hear. Instead of telling people a blissful afterlife awaits where you will be reunited with loved ones, the answer is that what comes after death is an unknowable mystery, what matters is making the most of the present moment. I think it's a good answer, but it doesn't offer much comfort to those who have lost loved ones or want to have a purpose in life. Taoism teaches that debating things is ultimately futile, it is human nature to want to be right, so changing someone else's beliefs is impossible, they can only change themselves. "You can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink." But isn't it still worth it to lead them there even if they don't drink?

 

Doing Good

Wu-wei, actionless action, is another key principle. But many people interpret as a right to be lazy. Even the name of this forum seems like it might be referring to wu-wei. People also might interpret it as following your inner nature, which might be interpreted as doing what you feel, which could include stealing, murdering, lying, etc. That's not right though is it? Doesn't following the Tao lead people to do good?

 

I'm sure I could think of more, but I'll leave it at that for now. If you actually enjoyed reading this (hey, it's possible...) you can check out my blog too, arnquist2.blogspot.com

Edited October 7, 2007 by arnquist

[gendao]

But I still have some problems with it. One thing I would miss is the organization. Mormons are setup all over the world in communities that know each other and look out for each other, whether you're a member or not. I don't see that in Taoism. I would also miss the familiarity. I can tell you all about Mormonism, but when I try to tell people about Taoism I end up getting confused and frustrated.

 

Homosexuality

In Mormonism, as with most Christian sects, it's a sin. Even in Taoism it could be seen as bad if you think of it as two yangs with no yin or two yins with no yang, thus creating an imbalance. But maybe the Tao is actually at work here on a grander scale, gays don't have kids thus balancing out people who have too many kids and overpopulate the planet?

 

Preaching

Taoism teaches that debating things is ultimately futile, it is human nature to want to be right, so changing someone else's beliefs is impossible, they can only change themselves.

 

Doing Good

Wu-wei, actionless action, is another key principle. But many people interpret as a right to be lazy. Even the name of this forum seems like it might be referring to wu-wei. People also might interpret it as following your inner nature, which might be interpreted as doing what you feel, which could include stealing, murdering, lying, etc. That's not right though is it? Doesn't following the Tao lead people to do good?

- First off, only male homosexuality is regarded as a "sin" in the Bible.

 

And btw, "sin" is usually translated from the Greek word hamartia (ἁμαρτία) - which means "to miss the mark" or "to miss the target" (also used in Old English archery).

 

Now, I'm sure you can think of several pragmatic reasons why male homosexuality would be "bad," but unfortunately, the Bible does not give any reasoning behind its decrees so it's anybody's guess.

 

 

- Well, only people can change themselves and empty their own cups first...true. Debate is usually wasted breath, although it can still be an enjoyable waste.

 

 

 

- My friend says there is a difference between following your heart and just following your emotional body. Your heart has wisdom, your volatile emotional body essentially doesn't. Wu-wei is allowing our deepest inner nature to guide us...which is a lot more difficult for most of us to access than we might think.

[Cameron]

My feeling about homosexuality.

 

It's a totally personal thing .It's amazing how we have the arrogance to project out to the world our sense of what is right or wrong for others regarding sexuality.

 

The way I see it now..sexual energy is this elixer and you create energy with it .As I have mentioned in other posts my sense is the Egyptians and Taoist knew this at a high, high level.

 

So..as others have stated it's liek fuel but it feels like more than fuel. It can be seriously misused or used in inappropriate ways.

 

Who says if yuor sexual energy is used in an appropriate or inappropriate way?

 

YOU.

Edited October 7, 2007 by Cameron

[mantis]

arnquist,

 

when lao tzu wrote the ttc i don't think he had the people in mind of today. over the time man has grown corrupt and, although this sounds christian, evil. this doesn't mean you must go to the church and tell a priest every sin you have committed because believe it or not - then he will judge you, and in the end it's gods choice - not his.

 

within time as your meditation and practice grow you become more and more pure. with this you act from the heart. this terminology is being extensively used in the west but very few people know what it actually means. in order to be from the heart you have to dissolve numerous "layers" of social conditioning and emotional barriers. once you have and you have become pure thoughts of murdering or lying won't arise.

 

as for the preaching, sure you can. teach meditation. teach people to sit down, close their eyes, and look at their mind. that is the greatest gift anyone can give.

[Cameron]

Maybe we should dig Lao Tzu up out of his grave and see what he thinks?

Edited October 7, 2007 by Cameron

[mantis]

he'd punch you for waking him up in this nightmare that we call reality

[Eric23]

A number of years ago I attended a fundimental Christian church. Was a deacon, taught Sunday school and have read the entire Bible. I gradually slipped away for a number of reasons. Just a few years ago I discovered the Tao Te Ching and it resonated within me. The world of alchemey that many of the Taobums are practicing is a new revelation to me.

 

One of the reasons I got away from the church was the organization. All the infighting, gossiping, backstabbing etc got to me. I trully believe that if Jesus was walking on Earth the church would not only not recognize him they would shun him from their ranks. Taoism and it's associated practices are mostly done alone. You are on a journey to discover the depths of you; best done alone. Teachers can guide you, the Bums will share their journeys and pass along some excellent advice, but ultimately you are by yourself staring at a wall. Another reason I left was the pressure of the church to evangelize. I just never felt comfortable talking with strangers about my religion. Maybe I just a diehard individualist, but I prefer to keep things to myself unless asked.

 

During the whole time I was going to church there was something that just didn't ring true for me. At the time I thought it was a disconnect with my views on sexuality vs the church's. Ever since my first orgasm at 13 I've been hooked (ok, it's pretty common amongst us guys!), and I just could not understand why something that felt so good was looked upon as something evil. Now that there has been a few years and several books later, I've come to realize that my problem was with the concept of dualism. I'm paraphrasing Paul the apostle, but in one of his letters in the NT he said something like, "I look forward to the day when I lose this corrupt body." This I believe has lead to a whole way of thinking within the church that all body functions are gross and disqusting, and all the emphasis was placed on the soul. I'm far more comfortable with the Taoist non-dualist way of looking at ourselves where the body is just as much a part of what makes up a person as the soul, mind, thoughts, ego etc.

 

Sure I'm leaving a bunch of stuff out, but that's my view as a former fundamentalist turned Taoist for now.

[arnquist]

Thanks everyone for your insights. It's really nice to know there are other people who are seriously pursuing wisdom and harmony through Taoism.

 

to everyone

By the way, just to clarify, I have nothing against homosexuality, I just like thinking about how controversial things like that fit into the grand scheme of things and how I might form an argument that would make some sense besides the "it's none of your business" argument, which just isn't enough for some people. Thanks for your insights on this.

 

to mantis

Certainly Lao Tzu wrote in his unique historical context, but that's the beauty of it. He didn't know anything about our time, but the Tao Te Ching still makes perfect sense in the modern world. He didn't make vague prophecies or claim to perform miracles, he just told it like it is. I don't think we (mankind) are more evil today than we were in his time, things are just being done on a grander scale these days because there are more of us and we have bigger guns.

 

to vortex and mantis

Thank you for your words on meditation and sharing teachings, I really do want to share these ideas, it's just so hard to put into words sometimes.

[arnquist]

Eric23

Awesome story, thanks. Christian teachings about chastity are a big reason for my lack of faith. I'll always remember something my girlfriend said after information got leaked that we were having sex. It was something like "it's a shame to deny something so natural and beautiful."

[Nemo]

Homosexuality: It depends on the sect of Taoism you follow, some view it as an aberation going against the yin and yang. Others just don't care. However you should think on this the Tao Te Ching says that the ten thousand thing carry the yin on their backs and embrace the yang. We all contain both male and female within us. My sister is bi and when she is with a woman she becomes the agressive one, but with a man she is the submissive one. To me this reflects her balance and even though she may be with another woman, she comes to represent the yang in order to balance the other womans yin.

 

Preaching: Preaching in it's basic form is simply telling some one that you are right and they are wrong. It has nothing to do with comforting others or helping them. From the Taoist perspective all views are valid and false, so how can you declare that you are right and others are wrong? This does not mean that Taoists have never preached, read up on Zhang Jiao and the yellow scarves rebellion. It is true that people like to be given answers rather than having to find them, but any answer that is given away is by it's very nature corrupted by the giver's own views. There are religious Taoists who speak of a vast heavenly hiearchy and who perform rites for the dead to get them promoted in the afterlife, so if you feel the need for this type of belief, look into religious Taoism.

 

Wu Wei: Wu wei is difficult to explain. I do not even know if my understanding of it is correct, but this is how I view it. Have you ever had a series of odd coincidental events that just seemed to lead you into a given situation without any real work on your part to make it that way? Jung called it synchronicity, it's no surprise that when he came up with the concept of synchronicity Jung had been studying the Tao among other things. Wu Wei is not being lazy as some one practicing it still accomplishes what needs to be done, rather it is simply doing things as they need to be done without forcing things to be done. Think about writing, you spent years in school learning to write until it became second nature, now when you write you no longer have to even think about how the letters are formed or in what order to put them to make words. This is another example of wu wei and is why Zuangzi stressed practicing a given skill until it became second nature as can be seen in the story of the butcher carving the ox.

To practice wu wei one must act without thought about the action. Doing what you feel is simply following your desires and the Tao Te Ching clearly states that desires should be diminished. You will know you are experiencing wu wei when the synchronicities start to pile up.

 

This is the best that I can answer your questions based on my own views and limited understanding.

[agharta]

I have a Vietnamese Buddhist monk friend who says that one male physically contacting the semen of another can lead to "Dragon Yang", where you have too much energy, kind of like the same energy state that comes from eating too much sugar. High highs, and then crashing later. You eventually can get addicted to it. He says there is nothing similar with women, if I recall correctly.

[Taoist81]

A fellow Exmormon interested in Taoism! As you can see, from the various posts on this site, unlike the regemented organization you are accustom to with the LDS church Taoism has many facets and traditionally the different sects respected each other as different sides of the same Tao. Homosexuality can be looked down upon (especially certain acts as one of our fellow bums has displayed recently) or it can be praised as an embracing of your inner yin or yang depending on your gender. For preaching, looking at history, Taoists did their fair share, especially as the early entrance of Buddhism to China began changing their place in the society (despite the fact that Lao Tzu seemed against it). As for community, Taoists can be a bit like cats (just ask Taomeow and Cat) and you know what they say about herding cats. This site has a good online community all on its own, and their are others. For a bit of online community with MANY who share your experience in the exodus from Mormonism check out http://www.exmormon.org/boards/w-agora/ind...exmobb_recovery as for IRL community you might want to do what many Exmormons do, and check out your local Unitarian Universalists. They are non-sectarian and are often quite Taoist friendly (depending on the particular church) and the services will be in a format that will be comfortable enough to fill your need for a Sacrament meeting (without the Sacrament on most weeks), except of course for the smell of freshly brewed coffee . Feel free to drop a line if you want to talk more.