Is faith an illusion of the mind?

[Chang]

Alas I am not a great dancer.

 

Whose law of karma is this? Karma simply means action and different people, let alone different faiths, see it working in different ways. One may believe what one likes but still be subject to the same laws.

 

Hence it matters not whether you believe in reincarnation your every act will still receive the appropriate reaction. As regards good or bad consequences - even the judgement of what is good or bad is difficult.

[Marblehead]

I get where you're coming from and I agree to a point...

I offer this addition/distinction...

 

They are concepts (illusory in nature), yet the affects of which on consciousness, are myriad and potent.

You done good.

[Marblehead]

 

We do not need to use a sanskrit word to describe this concept nor do we need to have any faith in this law for it to effect us. Whether we have "faith" in these laws or not we will still find ourselves subject to them.

Excellent statement, I think.

 

If they are "laws of nature" they will work whether we believe in them or not.  But then, in order for it to be a "law" it must, with all variables equal, it must prove true every time.

[Marblehead]

 

The law of karma is rarely verified THEREFORE to make it works, one must believe that the "good consequences" will be there in the future life.

But if they don't happen in this life time how can they ever be verified?  (Yes, I know, through faith.  For some that is enough.)

[doc benway]

There's no need for anyone to believe in karma or reincarnation, in my opinion.

If the concepts resonate or make sense in some way, if they help us to move along the path in a positive direction, that is beautiful. If they don't make sense and don't help us along, best to let go and look elsewhere for guidance.

[Cheshire Cat]

Whose law of karma is this? Karma simply means action and different people, let alone different faiths, see it working in different ways. One may believe what one likes but still be subject to the same laws.

 

Well, it's just the normal traditional scriptural way to view karma.

If you want to believe that because karma means just action, it can suit your argumentative needs freely depending on the subject, then you're welcome... but consider that I was talking about karma and not a personal interpretation of the thing.

[4bsolute]

Do you want to know the underlying truth of faith? Fear.

 

You will not have faith, when you know. You have faith, when you dont know and want something to be true. But did not yet make the conscious effort in really researching if said thing or consequence really exists. Life-experience is missing so we "dream". And with this dreaming, we create, if we are powerful enough. But this creation will be destroyed at one point, for that is the nature of the Universe.

 

We want something and we want it to be positive and we want it to last forever.

 

This comes from our fundamental nature:

 

We want something = we are creators

We want it to be positive = we strive for life (in absence of not wanting to understand our negative aspect, therefor karma)

We want it to last forever = coming from our true nature, which is pure consciousness, eternal

 

Do you understand what is between the lines of all what we do here?

 

The middle part, wanting positive - is our current imbalance. We have to unite positive and negative, as equal (surely there will always be an imbalance for creation to happen but it is a difference to AVOID negative or to INTEGRATE it)

So faith is gone, when you know. Knowing, is pure consciousness. Heart. Spiritual Heart. God / Buddha / Christ Consciousness, that INCLUDES both positive and negative aspects of Life (but are rarely presented in todays literature due to avoidance)

Edited February 28, 2015 by 4bsolute

[doc benway]

Well, it's just the normal traditional scriptural way to view karma.

If you want to believe that because karma means just action, it can suit your argumentative needs freely depending on the subject, then you're welcome... but consider that I was talking about karma and not a personal interpretation of the thing.

It's presumptuous to think that you fully understand the "normal traditional scriptural way to view karma."

Do you understand it the same way a fully attained lama does?

Or exactly as someone from a different country and decade understand it?

You only see what you have the capacity to see based on your personal knowledge and life experience. 

I think it's safe to say they are both limited.

 

Belief and dis-belief are a lazy way to approach the truth.

And I'm not pointing the finger at anyone more than myself!

 

The Buddhist method is to investigate for ourselves in our own personal experience and frame of reference.

It is an empirical and scientific method:

 

If I act in a genuinely loving and supportive way with others, how do I feel?

How do others respond? What tends to come of such actions?

 

If I act in a hateful, hurtful, and destructive manner, how do I feel?

How do others respond? What tends to come of such interactions?

 

The human condition is so complex that we will not always see a 1:1 positive correlation between action and outcome in our limited mental capacity and span of time. If we "believe" in science, I think the evidence would show that the positive and negative outcomes are related to the corresponding behavior over time. If we "have faith" in our gurus, we trust their experience and teachings regarding this correlation. 

 

Rather than invoke and debate concepts like reincarnation, we simply need to look at this in our own lives. If it is instructive and proves to be valuable, we cultivate it. If not, we let it go and the Buddhist path is probably not an auspicious one for us at this moment in this life.

 

Are there other lives? Certainly, yes....  we see them all around us past, present, and future. 

Our unique personal understanding of reincarnation is based on many factors, primarily those related to our direct experience and understanding of the nature of who and what we are(n't). 

As that changes and is perfected, it can change one's momentary perspective on self and also reincarnation.

 

 

 

Do you want to know the underlying truth of faith? Fear.

 

You will not have faith, when you know. You have faith, when you dont know and want something to be true. But did not yet make the conscious effort in really researching if said thing or consequence really exists. Life-experience is missing so we "dream". And with this dreaming, we create, if we are powerful enough. But this creation will be destroyed at one point, for that is the nature of the Universe.

 

We want something and we want it to be positive and we want it to last forever.

 

This comes from our fundamental nature:

 

We want something = we are creators

We want it to be positive = we strive for life (in absence of not wanting to understand our negative aspect, therefor karma)

We want it to last forever = coming from our true nature, which is pure consciousness, eternal

 

Do you understand what is between the lines of all what we do here?

 

The middle part, wanting positive - is our current imbalance. We have to unite positive and negative, as equal (surely there will always be an imbalance for creation to happen but it is a difference to AVOID negative or to INTEGRATE it)

 

So faith is gone, when you know. Knowing, is pure consciousness. Heart. Spiritual Heart. God / Buddha / Christ Consciousness, that INCLUDES both positive and negative aspects of Life (but are rarely presented in todays literature due to avoidance)

 

It's fascinating to watch how we cling to words and concepts like a drowning man clings to a floating log.

It's so restricting, so limiting, and yet the illusion of security that this gives us is powerful.

 

For me, better to let go of labels, definitions, and concepts - let go of belief! That is a beautiful thing...

Equally important to let go of dis-belief! That is just as much an obstacle.

 

Better for me to rest in a state of unknowing and openness and simply observe without interference.

This is the most fertile ground for realization.

 

Once realization dawns, unknowing is extinguished; belief and dis-belief are unnecessary.

The need for security vanishes in the light of knowing.

 

Faith

[Cheshire Cat]

It's presumptuous to think that you fully understand the "normal traditional scriptural way to view karma."

Do you understand it the same way a fully attained lama does?

Or exactly as someone from a different country and decade understand it?

You only see what you have the capacity to see based on your personal knowledge and life experience. 

I think it's safe to say they are both limited.

 

I don't think so.

Karma isn't a transcendental theological concept, but a relatively simple law explained linearly:

if you do good, you get good.

if you do bad, you get bad.

 

Simple. This is the most fundamental scriptural and traditional way to view karma.

I was talking about this view and has nothing to do with me: it's just the way it's explained by teachers and lamas.

 

If it's presumptuous to think that, then it's clear that our beloved buddhist teachers are filling the mind of thousands of people with presumption.

 

 

The Buddhist method is to investigate for ourselves in our own personal experience and frame of reference.

It is an empirical and scientific method:

 

No, the buddhist method is to firmly believe in karma and rebirth... and then, based on that Faith, to practice the investigation stuff..

 

Rather than invoke and debate concepts like reincarnation, we simply need to look at this in our own lives. If it is instructive and proves to be valuable, we cultivate it. If not, we let it go and the Buddhist path is probably not an auspicious one for us at this moment in this life.

 

I think that this is just your personal interpretation of the buddhist thing.

Traditionally, buddhism was a faith for people who already believe in reincarnation without doubts: even today if you ask a tibetan Lama about reincarnation, you'll see that it's deeply rooted in his native mind and simply not questionable.

 

You cannot really "test" reincarnation because people can't recall anything like past lives.

It's a matter of Faith.

Edited February 28, 2015 by Cheshire Cat

[doc benway]

I think that this is just your personal interpretation of the buddhist thing.

 

What else could it possibly be?

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

Do you want to know the underlying truth of faith? Fear.

 

You will not have faith, when you know. You have faith, when you dont know and want something to be true. But did not yet make the conscious effort in really researching if said thing or consequence really exists. Life-experience is missing so we "dream". And with this dreaming, we create, if we are powerful enough. But this creation will be destroyed at one point, for that is the nature of the Universe.

 

We want something and we want it to be positive and we want it to last forever.

 

This comes from our fundamental nature:

 

We want something = we are creators

We want it to be positive = we strive for life (in absence of not wanting to understand our negative aspect, therefor karma)

We want it to last forever = coming from our true nature, which is pure consciousness, eternal

 

Do you understand what is between the lines of all what we do here?

 

The middle part, wanting positive - is our current imbalance. We have to unite positive and negative, as equal (surely there will always be an imbalance for creation to happen but it is a difference to AVOID negative or to INTEGRATE it)

 

So faith is gone, when you know. Knowing, is pure consciousness. Heart. Spiritual Heart. God / Buddha / Christ Consciousness, that INCLUDES both positive and negative aspects of Life (but are rarely presented in todays literature due to avoidance)

 

This. Was. Wonderful!!

 

This is a most concise and correct and accurate and beautiful assessment of our connection with our reality!!

 

Thank you for this post, it is truly more valuable than a single glance can offer witness.

[Anderson]

 

This. Was. Wonderful!!

 

.

 

This is just a mixture of views.

[soaring crane]

This. Was. Wonderful!!

This is a most concise and correct and accurate and beautiful assessment of our connection with our reality!!

Thank you for this post, it is truly more valuable than a single glance can offer witness.

 

Huh. That's pretty interesting because I didn't agree with any of it. "Knowing"? That's just conceit.

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

Conciet?
 

noun

1.

an excessively favorable opinion of one's own ability, importance, wit, etc.

2.

something that is conceived in the mind; a thought; idea:

He jotted down the conceits of his idle hours.

3.

imagination; fancy.

4.

a fancy; whim; fanciful notion.

5.

an elaborate, fanciful metaphor, especially of a strained or far-fetched nature.

6.

the use of such metaphors as a literary characteristic, especially in poetry.

7.

a fancy, purely decorative article.



Which one?

Faith is more concieted than knowing; at least with knowing, there is [an] experiential precursor, whereas with faith it's....   well....  faith.

Edited March 1, 2015 by Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan

[doc benway]

 

Faith is more concieted than knowing; at least with knowing, there is [an] experiential precursor, whereas with faith it's....   well....  faith.

 

I think that true faith is also associated with an experiential precursor.

A feeling, very solid and deep, of the truth of something, a foundation for trust.

I suspect that people without that feeling find it hard to understand and accept.

But if you feel it, it can be very real - no different than knowing.

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

that potentially takes us to genetic memory and the like...  but i won't go into it due to my lack of knowledge.

What i will say, however, is that we are all directly and physically connected to the truth; the origins of reality.
We are all born knowing in our hearts the truth between right and wrong. It is merely a matter of how much we acknowledge what we know in our hearts or ignore it.

True faith in this sense is something that is not concieted, but would guarantee a pursuit of facts and evidence if one's faith would be taken seriously.

[C T]

 

True faith in this sense is something that is not conceited, but would guarantee a pursuit of facts and evidence if one's faith would be taken seriously.

That would sort of ring a bell for anyone starting on a new regime of practice, be it spiritual or otherwise. Bagua, for example. Wouldn't you agree? 

 

Someone says, hey, Bagua is extremely powerful - you should try to bring it into your life... As a beginner, we really wont know how potent the practice is until we do the forms for some time. If we trust the person who encourage the practice, then we will do as suggested. If we don't, most likely we wont.

 

Do we know how its going to help as we begin the routine? Not really, but the longer we stick with (any) practice, if its really good, we will get a sense of its goodness, in time, due to that inborn intuitiveness that you mentioned. As the results are gradually being felt, it would generate more enthusiasm and determination to pursue deeper and practice harder. That growing determination, based on that intuitive knowing, is, imo, what faith is all about. In this context.

 

There are of course other contexts, but irrelevant to mention here. 

Edited March 1, 2015 by C T

[gabrielnb]

Very interesting the discussions on the topic. I guess faith needs a belief, a convincement that something is true, either because of reason (logic, science, and here is our rational mind: someone "knows" something is true), or because of emotion (someone "feels" something is true). I think all this process exists because of the mind. Which faith should the trees, frogs and nature have? I guess hope sounds like the desire that something is true. A glance of life. A experience that someone desires to live (a dream that can be true, a movement in life, a changing in reality). While hope looks like desire, faith sounds as a kind of a way to understand what is true according with reason or emotion. Well, just thoughts on the topic.

[Marblehead]

 Which faith should the trees, frogs and nature have?

Excellent question to include in this discussion.

[doc benway]

I guess faith needs a belief, a convincement that something is true, either because of reason (logic, science, and here is our rational mind: someone "knows" something is true), or because of emotion (someone "feels" something is true). 

 

I think there is a third category.

Reason, emotion, and ?

 

If we let go of engaging reason, the narrator inside is left to be as it is, and we let go of engaging emotion, mediated by judgement - attachment and aversion; there is another level of experience where we can recognize, and rest in, non-engagement. There can be a realization then which is a source of enormous faith that I don't think is related to rational thought or emotion. Not sure what to label it, as anything will be inaccurate...  

 

I like the Tibetan word for it - Kuntuzangpo (all good)

[doc benway]

Excellent question to include in this discussion.

 

Can we call it faith that allows the hatchling to jump off a tree branch and salmon to jump the rapids?

I think there is an aspect of faith that is non-verbal and we may share it with more beings than we imagine depending on how we choose to define the label.

[gabrielnb]

I think there is a third category.

Reason, emotion, and ?

 

If we let go of engaging reason, the narrator inside is left to be as it is, and we let go of engaging emotion, mediated by judgement - attachment and aversion; there is another level of experience where we can recognize, and rest in, non-engagement. There can be a realization then which is a source of enormous faith that I don't think is related to rational thought or emotion. Not sure what to label it, as anything will be inaccurate...  

 

I like the Tibetan word for it - Kuntuzangpo (all good)

Can we call it faith that allows the hatchling to jump off a tree branch and salmon to jump the rapids?

I think there is an aspect of faith that is non-verbal and we may share it with more beings than we imagine depending on how we choose to define the label.

 

 

 

Maybe, instinct? And instinct can be also understood as something being drived by life force or by it's own nature. If we think that human being according with some internal arts possesses 3 tantien: hara (belly), related to "instinct" (meaning "the natural way". I don't have other word for that), heart (emotion) and head (mind, thoughts), to put instinct here, side by side with emoticon and reason, would make some sense.

 

Maybe emptiness of mind could lead to understand the non-verbal aspect of faith.

[Marblehead]

Can we call it faith that allows the hatchling to jump off a tree branch and salmon to jump the rapids?

I think there is an aspect of faith that is non-verbal and we may share it with more beings than we imagine depending on how we choose to define the label.

Of course you feel that way Steve. 

 

But I will suggest that displaced faith can and often does bring on more hardships in a person's life.

 

At some point we have to jump out of the tree if we want to eat and be under the protection of mom.

 

And the salmon will lay their eggs only where they have a good chance of survival.

 

No faith needed.  Just do what needs be done.

[doc benway]

Of course you feel that way Steve. 

Actually, I don't.

I just asked the question...

I keep an open mind but I won't claim to know how animals feel or what motivates them.

 

 

But I will suggest that displaced faith can and often does bring on more hardships in a person's life.

Sure, so does displaced desire, urinary stream, bullets, and driving...

If one doesn't genuinely feel it, there's no forcing it. 

 

 

At some point we have to jump out of the tree if we want to eat and be under the protection of mom.

 

And the salmon will lay their eggs only where they have a good chance of survival.

 

No faith needed.  Just do what needs be done.

How do you define the difference between having faith and knowing what needs to be done?

[Marblehead]

Actually, I don't.

I just asked the question...

I keep an open mind but I won't claim to know how animals feel or what motivates them.

Hehehe.  I think you do very well with your belief system, if you actually call it that.

 

Sure, so does displaced desire, urinary stream, bullets, and driving...

If one doesn't genuinely feel it, there's no forcing it. 

Yep.  Living in accord with one's TzuJan (Ziran).

 

How do you define the difference between having faith and knowing what needs to be done?

Fair question.  Might be difficult to express myself properly.

 

When I see the word "faith" I see it coming from some religious or spiritual root.

 

I see it as an alternative to taking action.

 

An example:  buying a lottery ticket with what little money one has left, having faith that they will win instead of using what little money they have left conservatively and finding a realistic way to get out of their money problems, like get a job.

 

To have faith without taking action to correct an unacceptable situation is like pissing in the wind.  There is no magic.  There is no tooth fairy.  If we want to better ourself we have to do the work.  One will wait an eternity before a Fairy Godmother comes along and gives you everything you want.