The polarizing fronts of egotism vs. altruism

[Wu Ming Jen]

Self acceptance guideline #1. Placing blame defends ego from being wrong and then we plunge deeply into dualism and conflict. Most people live in conflict Tao people see the larger picture and unite opposites into a peaceful and harmonious relationship. Give yourself a break and be at peace with your self including all faults you may seem to perceive and all relationships will correct themselves all on their own. You will find there is nothing to get hurt unless you make it so.

[Owledge]

Self acceptance guideline #1. Placing blame defends ego from being wrong and then we plunge deeply into dualism and conflict. Most people live in conflict Tao people see the larger picture and unite opposites into a peaceful and harmonious relationship. Give yourself a break and be at peace with your self including all faults you may seem to perceive and all relationships will correct themselves all on their own. You will find there is nothing to get hurt unless you make it so.

The ironic problem in this is that it is purely self-serving, meaning that people who exploit that will have a great time and if you keep doing that, it will become more and more difficult to keep it up. I've explored all those paths, several times, and all those experiences have me pretty solid feedback that some things need to be confronted. There's the danger that this alleged inner peace will be a great self-deception and then leads to arrogance.

It's not like I haven't heard and explored all this 'wisdom'. I am pissed exactly because I have been so much of a saint that I eventually couldn't stand it anymore, being exploited, seeing those who bring misery onto others being fed by this unhealthy dynamic. Those people are sensing when it is a weakness and are exploiting it. This is how success through controlling other people works. And this is also how those musicians could get to where they are despite revealing themselves as assholes. Because they are exploting the fact that those that could threatend their career (which would give them if not incentive for sincere change then at least incentive for adaptation) are too afraid to say anything.

I've experiences these fear-dynamics of character vulnerabilities in so many areas. Once I joined an internet forum and gave a warm and cheerful and grateful introduction, the sweetest you could imagine, and was met with a wave of the worst scum on earth, absolutely mindbogglingly appalling, and you know what the admin did? First nothing, not even talk about it, then delete the thread silently. No consequences for anyone. This is what happens when an admin is too afraid to become unpopular among anyone. This is one of those characters flaws that enables such rottenness to repeat itself and grow.

Pretty much the same I experiences in a World of Warcraft guild. The guild leader couldn't instill respect because he was a softie, and so his own guild officers insulted him, basically verbally spit on him, and he just accepted that. So I left. And it's not my fault. It's just the dynamic. If you live high values, then psychpaths will take offense with your presence.

 

All this is about the theme of maturity and personal responsibility, and I won't any longer feed a lack of it, especially not when a deal with a commitment has been made.

As I mentioned in my blog, I've already become a victim of judicial corruption, and that's the stuff all this leads to. And it will get worse unless people cut the bullshit and don't try to force harmony on everything, because if it doesn't work, you're prone to telling yourself convenient lies. Because all this is still about personal convenience. Look at politics. Nothing improves unless you have people who don't entertain wishful thinking, but confront problems.

 

Another example of this convenient denial is the classical situation of a brawl in school and in the end the teacher goes like: "And now shake hands and everything is fine again." Or even worse, just letting it continue and be like: "Yes, children can be cruel." This is rotten and disgusting cowardice, and the fact that adults practice it in the face of children, and even worse, adults who have been tasked with dealing with such an environment as part of their job description, is even more disgusting.

 

No wonder that the world is so full of spoiled children.

 

 

One really problematic misconception that I need to clear up: Yes, all you need is love, but when you truly love someone, you don't let them turn into an asshole. If you do, then it's the kind of "love" that's actually an unhealthy dependency relation, where you want something from them. Few people have the kind of friends who would watch their back in that regards.

Edited February 25, 2015 by Owledge

[Wu Ming Jen]

Its not about avoiding conflict we can not walk without conflict,( two opposing forces going in opposite directions). We can not be to yin and yielding or to yang aggressive it needs to be in harmony with the situation. Change perspective and turn things into a learning experience,solve problems unconcerned with blame, fault or any type of origin. Clean you energy field polluted by others.

 

The earth does not care but cares for all things, heaven is not kind but shows kindness to all living things, can you be a companion of heaven and earth? Kindness taken too far is harmful to self and others. One would think kindness is a good virtue but Tao knows it needs its companion its  opposite to be EFFECTIVE. Trying is the worst mistake change it into doing.

 

My words are not directed at you only at a life situation that has been walked by those before you so don't think you are alone or a trail blazer. Thanks for listening to my ramblings.

[Lth]

Owledge, are you a control freak? If you try to control outcomes and think they should happen in a certain way or someone should behave or be a certain way, they most likely will not.

In other words, you are creating a false reality for yourself and when something does not reflect it you feel threatened and your mind starts making excuses why it did not happen they way it should have. You expect other people to participate in its creation. It is a form of mind trap. Please look at it and identify the flaw.

This is my advice for you today    good luck in the future. And remember that the future is not today or tomorrow, the future is NOW !

[idiot_stimpy]

I don't understand. 

 

You gave the money for charity???

 

Or did you give the money for a song???

 

In my mind if your motivation was to truly give to the charity then why care so much for the song, its an added bonus whatever they produce?

[idiot_stimpy]

Owledge, are you a control freak? If you try to control outcomes and think they should happen in a certain way or someone should behave or be a certain way, they most likely will not.

 

In other words, you are creating a false reality for yourself and when something does not reflect it you feel threatened and your mind starts making excuses why it did not happen they way it should have. You expect other people to participate in its creation. It is a form of mind trap. Please look at it and identify the flaw.

 

This is my advice for you today    good luck in the future. And remember that the future is not today or tomorrow, the future is NOW !

 

Hello Dreambliss.

[Owledge]

Owledge, are you a control freak? If you try to control outcomes and think they should happen in a certain way or someone should behave or be a certain way, they most likely will not.

 

In other words, you are creating a false reality for yourself and when something does not reflect it you feel threatened and your mind starts making excuses why it did not happen they way it should have. You expect other people to participate in its creation. It is a form of mind trap. Please look at it and identify the flaw.

 

This is my advice for you today    good luck in the future. And remember that the future is not today or tomorrow, the future is NOW !

Hippie bullshit. I want to see you apply that mindset to yourself when you buy a toaster and it breaks on first use and you go to the shop to return it and they say "Screw you, don't try to control the outcome. Your expectations about what to get are the problem here."

 

Damn, so many people in delusion, trying to justify asshole behavior. My advice to all of you is to read the blog comments that are (tellingly) made by name and 'meditate' on that.

You so need to get ripped off and screwed over majorly to get your head in order. It seems most times suffering is the only thing that creates empathy. If not the opposite.

[Owledge]

I don't understand. 

 

You gave the money for charity???

 

Or did you give the money for a song???

 

In my mind if your motivation was to truly give to the charity then why care so much for the song, its an added bonus whatever they produce?

If you don't know how a charity auction works and couldn't deduct it from the blog text, you better stay away from this thread.

[idiot_stimpy]

So your motivation is not to give to charity, but to buy some 'thing' at auction? 

 

This is not Altruism, it is a normal everyday purchase, like buying something off ebay. 

 

I would have thought $750 is cheap for someone to make you a song too, considering the amount of hours that must go into something like that.

 

Professional jingle creators get from $1500-$15000 per jingle I have read by a quick search on google.

[Owledge]

So your motivation is not to give to charity, but to buy some 'thing' at auction? 

 

This is not Altruism, it is a normal everyday purchase, like buying something off ebay. 

 

I would have thought $750 is cheap for someone to make you a song too, considering the amount of hours that must go into something like that.

 

Professional jingle creators get from $1500-$15000 per jingle I have read by a quick search on google.

I knew you were intentionally playing dumb. I take offense with such attempted deception. Then again, your user name gave me a warning. Still, I told you to stay away if you cannot comprehend the situation.

[idiot_stimpy]

I can't comprehend your perspective, I can only see from mine.

 

Thats my input, take what you want from it.

 

I can't see how I have deceived you. But if I have, I am sorry.

[Owledge]

I can't comprehend your perspective, I can only see from mine.

 

Thats my input, take what you want from it.

 

I can't see how I have deceived you. But if I have, I am sorry.

If you are autistic, that would explain it. Because you have mentioned a quite prominent feature of it there.

[idiot_stimpy]

If you are autistic, that would explain it. Because you have mentioned a quite prominent feature of it there.

 

I only wish you well.

[liminal_luke]

Owledge,

 

You were upset by something that happened in the real world.  So you posted about it here at Taobums.  And got lots of feedback posts. Among them some high quality responses.  But you seem very disgruntled by almost everyone, offended by even very gentle critiques of your point of view.

 

Seeing as all the perceived conflict is swirling around you, it might be helpful to consider if you have any part in generating it.

 

Liminal

[Owledge]

Owledge,

 

You were upset by something that happened in the real world.  So you posted about it here at Taobums.  And got lots of feedback posts. Among them some high quality responses.  But you seem very disgruntled by almost everyone, offended by even very gentle critiques of your point of view.

 

Seeing as all the perceived conflict is swirling around you, it might be helpful to consider if you have any part in generating it.

 

Liminal

Oh wow, what a newsflash. Of course every human interaction has two sides. But did you look at YOUR side of it?

You can begin by looking at above quote, and then try to figure out how various other people are contributing to the results seen here.

[liminal_luke]

Nikolai1 is an extremely judgemental person who lacks inquisitiveness, and needs therapy.  Lth spouts hippie bullshit.  Idiot stimpy is likely autistic.  And clearly I´m not so hot myself.  Oh well.

 

Liminal

Edited February 26, 2015 by liminal_luke

[blue eyed snake]

Nikolai1 is an extremely judgemental person who lacks inquisitiveness, and needs therapy.  Lth spouts hippie bullshit.  Idiot stimpy is likely autistic.  And clearly I´m not so hot myself.  Oh well.

 

Liminal

 

If you are autistic, that would explain it. Because you have mentioned a quite prominent feature of it there.

 

I have read this thread and part of the external link but didn't comment beacause my opinion on this is already clearly formulated.

 

Seems to me that the original poster is outstepping forum rules by offending people who tried to help him. Above quote I find offensive on behalf of several autistic persons i know personally. I ask Owledge to delete this and the other offensive remarks.

 

About the topic itself, Owledge, i've been where you are now, for many long years.  And I do know how it feels.

The advice you got is good but it is your's to take it or leave it. I think what I see above is a repetition of a pattern that you're going trough, people sincerely try to help you and you reject them.

Step out of it, and I for one know how hard that is,

 

wish you the best,

 

BES

[Owledge]

I have read this thread and part of the external link but didn't comment beacause my opinion on this is already clearly formulated.

 

Seems to me that the original poster is outstepping forum rules by offending people who tried to help him. Above quote I find offensive on behalf of several autistic persons i know personally. I ask Owledge to delete this and the other offensive remarks.

 

About the topic itself, Owledge, i've been where you are now, for many long years.  And I do know how it feels.

The advice you got is good but it is your's to take it or leave it. I think what I see above is a repetition of a pattern that you're going trough, people sincerely try to help you and you reject them.

Step out of it, and I for one know how hard that is,

 

wish you the best,

 

BES

This autism offense (here even spoken of on behalf of others) is another thing that stifles talking about the problems in order to solve them (as political correctness often does), because anyone can read up on autism and will find that I am talking about facts. I also had experience with autists myself and got confirmation, that's why I mentioned it, because if someone really is autistic, it would help to know to better understand and defuse a situation. It always helped me in the past.

I have written down somewhat related thoughts in my blog; that might clear things up a little:

https://dowlphinblog.wordpress.com/2015/01/31/do-we-all-have-autism/

 

What about the offensiveness I received here that cannot be so conveniently focused on buzzwords? Can we accept that there are two parties to the story? (This is not the first time I am pointing at this.)

 

As for "help": I see here a lot of the typical internet forum sickness falsely called "help", which is in fact self-serving ego-stroking, first insultingly ignoring whatever facts one needs to ignore in order to run their thing without rough edges and then wallow in that. As I remarked a long time ago in another internet forum thread with a somewhat similar problem going, the apparent things aren't what's causing the problems, but the subtle ones. A perfectly politically correct speech can be a much greater insult and hurt than the rudest of vulgarity. And that's very much why the world is in turmoil, and that hurts me even more.

 

The key is that most (not all) people in this thread mistook the thread's purpose. This thread was not a call for help, but an exposition of and talk about a social problem and thus more an urge to help others (and yourself). Apparently it had a kind of bait function and attracted people who live the problem, thus further helping the presentation. There's a striking lack of sincere inquiry and instead lots of jumping over facts or gaps to conclusions.

 

The general message is that (especially) people in internet forums are often too much in their head and thus not enough in their heart. I got hurt by the events presented because my heart is open, because I allowed myself to be vulnerable, and with that I clashed with someone who is so much in their head that their heart got cold and shriveled and they jumped to exploit that vulnerability because of lack of basic character discpline. (Basically the spoiled brat type that would need a super nanny to be handled, and I certainly didn't pay to do such a job.) And if that trend is not stopped, then others will join that problem, and that might eventually include me. Very apparently a lack of empathy is horrifyingly widespread. It is a scary, depressing world to live in for someone who doesn't make that invisible by joining the ranks. For sensitive people it has always been a cruel world, and if humankind is ever to evolve, then that trait has to be embraced as welcome, as a move in the right direction, because we're still upholding a world massively shaped by people of the survival-of-the-fittest type, and adapting to that is considered healthy, when it is nothing more than an unfortunate pragmatic necessity. (Same disregard happens by extroverts against introverts. This is a collective spiritual crisis.)

Edited February 26, 2015 by Owledge

[Owledge]

You conveniently turn things around and look at the results, not at the trigger.

It is NOT wrong to look at the facts. What is bothering me is that people will just ignore the way the musicians handled (or didn't handle) the situation, while that in fact speaks volumes and explains the whole situation back to the start. I don't know, maybe this is impossible to comprehend for someone without psychology knowledge, but, actually, then how comes that there are really decent people who live values and virtues who have no problem seeing what was going on? I guess you would always assume they are suckups or such if you cannot analyze a personality based on their actions.

 

Let me give you another example from my past:

A work contract that ended up in a lawsuit. My story was consistent all the way through, over 5 years. I had 3 lawyers. They all did what they could to maintain that and simply portray the situation as it is. The other guy, the crook, had, over the course of the lawsuit, changes his version of the story serveral times, to three different claims all more or less contradicting each other, and he eventually even committed a slip of the tongue in front of the judge, CONFIRMING my claims, and this after there has also been pretty much the same confirmation in written form. My third lawyer, a really good one, presented the judge a concise, easy-to-read summary of the relevant facts (he said judges are lazy and don't want to read much, so it has to be appealing), where any sane person would have clearly seen what a crook the other guy is. Yet, the judge had the audacity to say that after thorough consideration of all facts, he has "no doubts about the sincerity of" the other guy! The person who keeps contradicting themselves and has three different stories is beyond doubt, but the guy who maintained their standpoint over all those years was commented on by the judge that it cannot be true because he couldn't believe it could have happened that way. (Because considering that the other guy is a crook was out of the question.)

 

And then comes someone like you and joins the judge and helps a crook commit fraud, breach of contract, selling of stolen goods etc. and say it must have been my fault. Because that is more convenient than frickin agreeing with the truth of an injustice for once. Because your heads are so full of opinions that you cannot just look at what's at hand.

 

Why are I even being scolded for my way of expressing myself here? Apparently that's totally fine, based on your attempted justifying of what the musicians did. But yeah, I get it. It's all conditional. Double-standards. Read up about what's going on in the world and you see its effects, and why it's pissing me off.

 

Need more examples, maybe something of overwhelming clarity to drive the point home? The Israel-Palestine conflict is a perfect example for what you get when there is a lack of empathy. You get genocide supported by people who claim that they have compassion, which is in fact ugly mental convenience. Because of this, atrocities can continue to occur, because no matter what happens, there's always a convenient justification for it.

('Fun fact' on the side to shine some light on what's going on psychologically with all this: There was a series of German studies that found out that Palestine-friends are less antisemitic than Israel-friends. It didn't surprise me at all. Makes perfect sense. But maybe some here have difficulty figuring that out.)

 

Some (convenient) people told me I shouldn't be so hard on myself. I tell you, you wouldn't like it if I heeded that advice. Because then, the only way to easily handle being screwed over is by screwing other people over, too. To become the problem.

 

Hell, most here didn't even try to be impartial (which in the face of injustice makes partial anyway), but you jumped right to taking sides with the lazy pricks of musicians who don't know how to act in a decent way when they had every encouragement to do so.

 

As a final word, just one of many cases of denial in close focus, when you said:

"They were not auctioning off unlimited chat sessions."

They offered to closely, personally work together with me to make sure it is exactly the way I want it. And they wasted tons of time resisting instead of just talking about what needs to be talked about. "Make it shorter" was all they managed to say. Don't you realize how much you conveniently overlook those things? They kept talking in order to resist just doing what benefits the project, avoiding the real topic, the real problem. That's not proper project communication. There's so much more in the blog that underlines it. And then you comment: "They were not auctioning off unlimited chat sessions."

That is the epitome of lack of empathy.

Someone gets screwed over and you are like: It would have worked fine if you had just bent over some more.

 

With a mindset like that, the world is doomed. Because some basic, allegedly commonly shared ideals are not upheld by the majority, obeying the law is more like an exception these days. Ever wondered why e.g. the US government is able to wage illegal wars? Because so many people lack empathy and prefer convenient self-BS.

We have to get some basics working first before we can work on the more advanced stuff. Apparently there's a long way to go.

 

Read this, as an exercise in empathy, and if you still cannot see a pattern, then there's no hope. You will dive even deeper into your escapism:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/randi-gunther/sexual-abuse_b_2013443.html

[blue eyed snake]

Part of the change that my recent experience has caused in me also urge me to share it, in part in the hope that it might somewhat ease my soulcrushing pain, in part because many people are not aware of the immensely destructive effect that egotism can have and does have on a grand scale in the world.

 

when I read someone writing about soulcrushing pain, i conclude that the matter is not only to have a dialogue about general issues . reading the comments I was not the only one.

 

Nikolai1 is an extremely judgemental person who lacks inquisitiveness, and needs therapy.  Lth spouts hippie bullshit.  Idiot stimpy is likely autistic.  And clearly I´m not so hot myself.  Oh well.

 

 I asked you to delete this offending talk, I do so again. Doesn't interest me if you find that political correctness, i believe there's rules here that ask of us to keep a civil tongue in our heads

 

This autism offense (here even spoken of on behalf of others) is another thing that stifles talking about the problems in order to solve them (as political correctness often does), because anyone can read up on autism and will find that I am talking about facts. I also had experience with autists myself and got confirmation, that's why I mentioned it, because if someone really is autistic, it would help to know to better understand and defuse a situation. It always helped me in the past.

I have written down somewhat related thoughts in my blog; that might clear things up a little:

https://dowlphinblog.wordpress.com/2015/01/31/do-we-all-have-autism/

 

What you write on that page is mostly nonsense, I've worked for years with autistic people. It's not a personality disorder. For many of them it's a hard and irreversible disorder that they have to carry with them all their lives. I have deep respect for my clients. Using the name of their handicap as a denigratory label is inexcusable.

 

What about the offensiveness I received here that cannot be so conveniently focused on buzzwords? Can we accept that there are two parties to the story? (This is not the first time I am pointing at this.)

 

Of course there are two parties to the story, always is...

Life sucks, and will go on sucking. When you get yourself worked up about it you make it worse, for yourself. That's what you're doing, i quitted that, happily. Life still sucks, but I will not let myself get worked up by it anymore (mostly, it's a process, not a switch).

 

 

As for "help": I see here a lot of the typical internet forum sickness falsely called "help", which is in fact self-serving ego-stroking, first insultingly ignoring whatever facts one needs to ignore in order to run their thing without rough edges and then wallow in that. As I remarked a long time ago in another internet forum thread with a somewhat similar problem going, the apparent things aren't what's causing the problems, but the subtle ones. A perfectly politically correct speech can be a much greater insult and hurt than the rudest of vulgarity. And that's very much why the world is in turmoil, and that hurts me even more.

 

Yes, you feel insulted, but reading those posts I don't see it. What I do see is that by generalizing your own problems to a societal problem ( which it is, you're right in that) you try to get more attention for your own problem.

 

 

The key is that most (not all) people in this thread mistook the thread's purpose. This thread was not a call for help, but an exposition of and talk about a social problem and thus more an urge to help others (and yourself). Apparently it had a kind of bait function and attracted people who live the problem, thus further helping the presentation. There's a striking lack of sincere inquiry and instead lots of jumping over facts or gaps to conclusions.

I already commented on this, the OP had clear personal tone and you went along with the responses

 

I would I could help you, for i do feel empathy, even though you can't believe that. But, sadly, I can't.

 

BES

[Owledge]

TL;DR - Please make it shorter. Who's gonna read all that? I'm not getting paid for this.

 

 

@blue eyed snake

I will conform to the 'personal word filter' then, if that's more important than not being rude and insulting through implication, but do you really think it makes sense to now try and remove certain words/statements from not only my posts, but other people's quotings, thereby messing up continuity/context?

 

Regading autism: Why are you arguing over semantics now? Whether you want to call it a personality disorder or a "hard and irreversible disorder" - those two aren't even mutually exclusive, but jumping to the conclusion that it's irreversible is another obstacle in the way of solving a problem. The results are often the same. I guess the severe autist I talked to was just an asshole then? Or the guy with Asperger who whined about wanting cuddles and donations and everything one day and was snottily cold-shoulder the next day when asked for a tiny favor, that's not the Asperger? That's "just" him being an ass?

We need to solve the problems, and it won't be possible when pampering issues with semantic and belief-based apologetics!

And I already explained that I did not use "autism" as a "denigratory label". YOU decided to see it that way, because you spoke for other people that you think might feel offended by having anything negative attibuted to their condition. This so speaks for itself. I want to understand and relate and it's turned against me. This is still the process I am talking about in full swing. Instead of cutting some slack, which you can't if you don't actually empathize, you pick on everything you can interpret in a way that suits your point. Naturally you will provoke more and more with this process, and at the root of it all, as always, is a lack of heart, and because that is so often neglected, and as long as it is, the root of problems aren't visible. It is the attempt of the mind to square the circle.

This also leads to the steadfast holding on to the mentioned misconception. To you it's all about 'helping' me, and with that, the master-slave dynamic has been set in your minds. It is not a mutual exchange.

https://dowlphinblog.wordpress.com/2015/01/14/master-slave-mindset-blocking-fruitful-interaction/

Because it is too uncomfortable to you to consider that this might actually be an opportunity for YOU to learn something, to RECEIVE help, to take something away from this.

This is a realization that I have made aplenty and learned from it. When I seek out people for help, they are usually more in need of my help. (In some cases they're even grateful, but mostly they block.)

So stop waging an ego battle here, sending all the time, and try opening yourself for reception. Because when I apporach something humbly and with self-doubt, life punishes me, showing me that I am bullshitting/sabotaging myself and becoming vulnerable for exploitation.

It is finally time for others to dump their convenience now. I've done more than a life's worth of it and am burnt out. If humankind cannot manage to turn things around, they will further build a great nemesis.

Look at the taiji and learn from the dots.

[Marblehead]

Great response!!!