Simple Question: Can anyone feel their meridians?

[Yasjua]

Just curious.

[Yasjua]

Second question: If you cannot feel your meridians, but believe they exist, why? On what basis do you acknowledge their existence?

[Pyramidalcow]

Not all of them. I can on occasion feel the qi at ldt, mdt, some points which contain energy such as the laogong, feelings of rushes of cold vibration on the outer forearms, up the spine, qi/stagnant qi at the spleen, mingmen and kidney qi .

 

I believe the meridians were discovered as a by product of specific meditations aiming for immortality, perhaps of the overflow of accumulating Qi at the ldt.

[ChiForce]

The major ones, yeah.  When it pulses and you feel the warm chi running through your body.  The chi goes where the mind goes.  Of course, you need to be somewhat advanc in your cultivation to move your chi in your body with your mind and to become fully aware of it. 

 

Of course, when all the energy points are active, your whole body tingles. 

[soaring crane]

When you look at a zodiac in the night sky, the stars are really there but your mind creates the image ( based on information other people have provided). I think of those charts in a similar way. The lines are only an aid.

[Aetherous]

I've definitely felt the primary pathways when having needles manipulated...or even felt the whole Lung meridian when having the pulse taken. They aren't exact but are pretty accurate. Felt the kidney meridian with the kunlun practice leg shaking.

With lower dantian breathing, once qi comes out of the lower dan, then I feel it rising roughly along the Du (up the back) and the Chong (internally)...which are 8 extra meridians.

 

One can feel all sorts of things throughout the body with spiritual practices, that doesn't always correlate to various maps of the body. Perhaps this is yuan qi and jinye flowing through the sanjiao (which is throughout the whole body). Perhaps it's also simply the nervous system firing in new ways.

But yeah, the primary meridians exist somehow. They tend to be along palpable depressions between muscles and/or bones.

Edited March 1, 2015 by Aetherous

[aboo]

I concur with the statements of the other members: the meridians can be felt. Personally I feel it most in my hands and scalp; if I focused on the lower dantien, the energy could be built-up there. You should have no doubt of their existence, it is 100% obvious when experienced and leaves no doubt to the experiencer.

[Bearded Dragon]

I've only felt actual thin lines one time. Fingertip to fingertip. You have to be more relaxed than you realise is possible.

[henro]

I don't know that scientists will ever find meridians, or qi. If they find a substance that nourishes and propels life they certainly won't name it qi. And if they find some unseen pathways through the body they definitely won't call them meridians….

 

That being said my concept of meridians and qi is continually evolving. After 4 years in TCM school and clinic, I believe there are pathways, meridians, but they are not necessarily bodily structures, and they aren't all built the same. For instance we can pretty easily trace the nerve pathway of some of the hand meridians and leg meridians. But other meridians may simply follow muscle groups. Take a look at the UB meridian, specifically from UB9 at the back of the head down to UB60 at the lateral malleolus. There's a great picture of the muscle groups underlying the pathway in the book Anatomy Trains. Clearly there's no physically structured Ren meridian but many people can sense the pathway during MCO. The Du, maybe it's the spine, maybe the nerve pathway along the spine, not sure. Meridians may also jump structures, say from following a nerve pathway, to following a dermatome, to a muscle group. That's where I'm at now, I'm sure it will evolve as my experience grows...

Edited March 2, 2015 by henro

[Astral Monk]

There are the bong han channels that correspond to meridians:

 

http://acupuncturetoday.com/mpacms/at/article.php?id=31918

 

Qi is such a comprehensive concept it includes a lot of processes and experiences. Some relate to physical mechanisms and some dont, with crossover.

 

Also, if one is in perfect health one shouldnt feel anything to do with meridians--they just do their thing quietly.

 

Meanwhile, does anyone feel their brain? If not, why suppose there is one?

 

8)

[soaring crane]

With the meridians, I think it's important to understand that those charts are tools for therapists and not graphic illustrations of the energy flow in the body. The pathways are generally along the connective tissue, the myofacial sack that wraps virtually everything in the body: the bones, muscles, sinews, organs. It's one continuous "surface" with a hugely complex network laid out on it.

 

The lines between the points aren't narrow and isolated/insulated, there aren't really lines at all, just higher and lower concentrations (of conductivity?) between the points. It's not a buch of wires; I guess it's more like a modern touchscreen phone/tablet (?). That sounds kind of weird but seems pretty accurate to me at the moment.

 

So what I'm getting at is, the points are the high-energy nodes and the pathways between them are much subtler. To feel the pathways, try breathing from one point along a path to the next. Don't concentrate heavily on the path, just focus on one point while inhaling and then focus on another point while exhaling. And relax while doing it. With enough practice, you'll feel the flow.

[blue eyed snake]

There are the bong han channels that correspond to meridians:

 

http://acupuncturetoday.com/mpacms/at/article.php?id=31918

 

 

thanks! I've seen some of these publications and lost them... this time I will take good care not to loose them again

[de_paradise]

One thing you may also consider is that nadis are not tubes but more like ropes, and the qi doesnt flow through as if through a tube, the entire channel moves along like a rope being pulled continuously, bouncing around.  (at least that's the way I feel it) And the channel itself is microfiber qi like corn hairs either twisted together similar to dna strings or telephone cord spirals, and spiraled yet again, yet all made of subparticles, I guess we could call that "qi" but my guess its suparticles are as complexly subdivided, similar to the cells that make up our body.

he lines between the points aren't narrow and isolated/insulated, there aren't really lines at all, just higher and lower concentrations (of conductivity?) between the points. It's not a buch of wires; I guess it's more like a modern touchscreen phone/tablet (?). That sounds kind of weird but seems pretty accurate to me at the moment.

So what I'm getting at is, the points are the high-energy nodes and the pathways between them are much subtler.

The idea that needling points are areas of higher (surface) concentration makes sense (thats to say when the channel surfaces closer to the skin), because there is qi all over, not just in specific channels, and obviously a  more complex system than that little diagram. And yet there are channels or areas of concentrated flows, which is these rope-like things that I mentioned. 

Edited March 2, 2015 by de_paradise

[soaring crane]

Indulge me for a minute (I was thinking of this while driving home earlier this evening)

 

Here's another way to illustrate/visualize what's going on with the myofascial layer. Picture (if you will, lol) a very, very large trampoline. Now put a bunch of kids on the trampoline. Enough to make it interesting, but still leave ample room between each kid. Each kid is standing there, creating a deep indent in the trampoline. Pretty easy image to muster up, right? Now observe the tension that develops in the trampoline between the pressure points where the kids are standing. A direct, narrow line between any two kids is going to have the most tension in it, it's going to be pretty taught and tight. You can see visibly that it's being stretched due to the pressure the kids are putting on their individua spots. But the lines of tension between any two kids get get gradually softer as you move outward from the very center. And there are areas on the trampoline that don't appear under any tension at all.

 

That's what's going on with the myofascial sack, except the "indents" aren't kids, or pressure points. They're energy nodes. This is where the meridians come from, not the other way around. This starts out as a cluster of "stars" and life happens when those lines between the stars begin to form. Macrocosm. Microcosm. The Big Dipper wouldn't be there without the stars. The lines aren't really "there", but they're real nonetheless.

 

And the myofascial "skin" is the thing that connects all of it. It goes into the deepest regions of the body, transfers information from the surface to the interior and vice-versa. It's the reason emotions are "stored" in organs and why the internal pathways are vastly more important than the surface pathways.

 

hope that's not too pedantic.

[blue eyed snake]

Indulge me for a minute (I was thinking of this while driving home earlier this evening)

 

Here's another way to illustrate/visualize what's going on with the myofascial layer. Picture (if you will, lol) a very, very large trampoline. Now put a bunch of kids on the trampoline. Enough to make it interesting, but still leave ample room between each kid. Each kid is standing there, creating a deep indent in the trampoline. Pretty easy image to muster up, right? Now observe the tension that develops in the trampoline between the pressure points where the kids are standing. A direct, narrow line between any two kids is going to have the most tension in it, it's going to be pretty taught and tight. You can see visibly that it's being stretched due to the pressure the kids are putting on their individua spots. But the lines of tension between any two kids get get gradually softer as you move outward from the very center. And there are areas on the trampoline that don't appear under any tension at all.

 

That's what's going on with the myofascial sack, except the "indents" aren't kids, or pressure points. They're energy nodes. This is where the meridians come from, not the other way around. This starts out as a cluster of "stars" and life happens when those lines between the stars begin to form. Macrocosm. Microcosm. The Big Dipper wouldn't be there without the stars. The lines aren't really "there", but they're real nonetheless.

 

And the myofascial "skin" is the thing that connects all of it. It goes into the deepest regions of the body, transfers information from the surface to the interior and vice-versa. It's the reason emotions are "stored" in organs and why the internal pathways are vastly more important than the surface pathways.

 

hope that's not too pedantic.

 

what is the  myofascial layer? can you explain that in simple english?

[soaring crane]

what is the  myofascial layer? can you explain that in simple english?

 

In Dutch: bindweefsel

 

(German: Bindegewebe)

 

English is such a PITA sometimes, lol. I hope I'm using the right English word!

 

Do I have to explain "PITA"? Don't know if I can translate it :-)

 

edit: ok, wiki uses the word "fascia" without the "myo". Hold the myo ...

[Spotless]

The clarity and intensity of a meridian will depend on many things.

I have felt the meridian leading from the tip of the big toe up the leg and connected to the other big toe and up the leg like a hot relatively thick wire with a very clear alternating current.

 

At times other meridians bristled with energy well out several feet and in an enormous fusion of magnetic spheres.

 

My master has created chi clouds with his hands quite unaware I could see them - and I was very surprised and excited to see this.

 

The feeling of energy moving up from the LDT to the MDT and the energy puffing up there then decompressing in a flood of upward movement into the UDT.

 

Listening to the sounds of a race in the body of another, the popping of energy clumps, life pictures being released and visible.

A great many sounds, light streams and flashes.

Edited March 3, 2015 by Spotless

[blue eyed snake]

Here's another way to illustrate/visualize what's going on with the myofascial layer. Picture (if you will, lol) a very, very large trampoline. Now put a bunch of kids on the trampoline. Enough to make it interesting, but still leave ample room between each kid. Each kid is standing there, creating a deep indent in the trampoline. Pretty easy image to muster up, right? Now observe the tension that develops in the trampoline between the pressure points where the kids are standing. A direct, narrow line between any two kids is going to have the most tension in it, it's going to be pretty taught and tight. You can see visibly that it's being stretched due to the pressure the kids are putting on their individua spots. But the lines of tension between any two kids get get gradually softer as you move outward from the very center. And there are areas on the trampoline that don't appear under any tension at all.

 

Nice image, better than a bunch of words, helpful!

 

In Dutch: bindweefsel

 

(German: Bindegewebe)

 

English is such a PITA sometimes, lol. I hope I'm using the right English word!

 

Do I have to explain "PITA"? Don't know if I can translate it :-)

 

edit: ok, wiki uses the word "fascia" without the "myo". Hold the myo ...

 

Danke, jetzt ist es mir klar.

[SonOfTheGods]

 We are one giant meridian of energy.

 

When you pore breathe- and the whole body radiates & pulses- that's the meridians becoming saturated.

 

Hopefully that helps

[dwai]

Just curious.

Usually that is during Taiji practice or doing standing meditations. The most frequently felt ones are those used for microcosmic orbit meditation, or the macrocosmic orbit meditation, the dai mai (belt meridian), the ming men point, the dan tians. The channels that pass through the inner side of the wrists, etc.

 

I think you will feel them more under these specific circumstances -

 

1. you are very sensitive to qi flow
2. you have blockages in specific meridians, as you unblock them.

Under normal circumstances, the qi flows, you don't necessarily feel the qi as it flows through the meridians. When you get acupuncture or other meridian modifications done, you can feel them too.

[Songtsan]

If you are of the view that myofascial meridians are the same as the meridians used in Chinese medicine, then yeah I can feel the meridians....

 

see sites like: http://dandjurdjevic.blogspot.com/2012/06/tcm-meridians-and-fascia-what-do-they.html

 

I have felt them where there was a sort of seam or line which corresponded to a meridian for example, an area of two myofascial 'sheaths' interconnecting - and also another possible example is when you touch one spot on your body, like on the chest, and it refers to another area, like on the hand.

 

Also, if you press on a trigger point, and it happens to correspond with an acupuncture point, as many of them do, and through trigger point release you experience a change of some sort (physiological, energetic), then you are feeling that acupuncture point and hence the meridian channel.

[Horus]

Second question: If you cannot feel your meridians, but believe they exist, why? On what basis do you acknowledge their existence?

 

Yes, I can feel them.

 

On what basis?...being able to manipulate their flow, and I've projected inside and seen them and seen qi flowing through them...

[Horus]

 

Meanwhile, does anyone feel their brain? If not, why suppose there is one?

 

Yes, I feel my brain - and have seen it with inner vision quite a few times...

[Horus]

One thing you may also consider is that nadis are not tubes but more like ropes, and the qi doesnt flow through as if through a tube, the entire channel moves along like a rope being pulled continuously, bouncing around.  (at least that's the way I feel it)

 

Agreed it does feel that way, but from my experience with inner vision and inner projection - they are just like translucent tubes with varying degrees of gauge/diameter depending on the level of development - and the qi clearly careers through the tubes as opposed to the whole channel moving as an energy, the qi courses through..

 

There are though, many forms of qi and some qi careers all over the body not flowing in the channels as such.

[Spotless]

My experience is that they are generally quite specific and can be felt with high precision - though this is apparently very rare.

 

If a practitioner is working and connecting energy from one point on a meridian to another point some fair distance away - the circuitry can be felt very distinctly - like a specific wire.

 

In many cases the feeling is that of an alternating current - dots and dashes of energy - some say pulsing as well. They can be seen and they can be felt as well.

 

We often think this is all very hazy - actually it is extremely well illustrated and charted - however humans bodies being somewhat rubbery fleshy and distorted in a great number of varieties requires that a practitioner ferret around a bit if they do not see and are going on feeling and intuition - but this skill is easily mastered over time by many - we are incredibly capable if we are not led to believe otherwise.

Edited September 30, 2015 by Spotless