Detachment and immersion

[Seeker of Wisdom]

Often one way people compare paths is by whether they aim at detachment from the world, or a full engagement/immersion in the world and its cycles. But I've been thinking, this could be a false dichotomy. It depends exactly what you mean by 'detachment'.

 

One way to 'detach' is to leave behind the world. Drop all this for something transcendent which can only be experienced in the absence of everything making up the world.

 

But another way is to drop a certain way of relating to the world, detaching from views and cravings towards the world. And this seems to actually imply a deeper immersion in the world as it truly is, since self-made perceptual or conceptual barriers have been removed.

 

Thoughts?

[forestofclarity]

I have a few thoughts.

 

First, what detaches or immerses into the world? How does detachment/immersion work?

 

Second, if the transcendent is separate from the world, it would be impossible to attain because there is no joining or point of contact between the two. Yet if the transcendent is no different from the world, what is the point in detaching at all? 

[Jetsun]

Sounds good, when you move beyond the minds interpretation you can move into a place of absolute intimacy with whatever is arising. Although I wonder if can you really detach from your own views without going into avoidance, perhaps all that is required is to see the truth of them, that they are interpretations of life rather than what life really is. From others perspective it may be perceived as detachment but from our own perspective its just about seeing and dealing with things as they are, if you see interpretations as interpretations rather than reality then what need is there of detachment from them? it will just happen naturally from perceiving the truth of them. 

[C T]

Renunciation (which is a better term imo) is related to the Dharmakaya aspect of the path;

 

immersion is related to the Sambhogakaya (or enjoyment) aspect;

 

In the Nirmanakaya aspect, the various form manifestations that arise and cease, all mind activity, confuses those that reflexively grasp at these thinking they are graspable when in reality nothing is, but the same, being seen as mere displays of buddha activity for the bodhisattvas, are spontaneously transformed into their pure forms, cognizant, yet empty at the same time, and thus can be expressed as wisdom and compassionate action without effort. 

 

Not being bound, attracted or repulsed by any one particular 'realm' is called the dawning of the Svabhavikakaya in the mindstream.

 

When activities of body, speech and mind no longer entail karmic consequences, one is said to have attained Abhisambodhikaya (perfect kaya of complete awakening). 

 

 

The above would be the logic i would apply to the OP's enquiry. 

[Marblehead]

Interesting concepts.

 

This is one of a very few times I will use a Buddhist concept to support what I am about to say.

 

It is my understanding that "detachment" is NOT meant to suggest that we give up on all material life.  But rather, it is suggsting the impermanancy of all things, including our physical body.

 

Therefore, IMO, what we are to detach from are all thoughts of permanancy.  The universe and all things within are subject to change.  Some changes take longer than do others.  Some are so slow we don't even notice the changes.  There is no permanancy in the universe.  Even our opinions change.

 

So what's left?  A bunch of temporary stuff.  And we are the caretakers of some of this stuff.  Therefore it would seem logical to me that we immerse our self into taking care of those things we are the caretakers of.  Yes, to jump into the deep end of the pool.  To get totally and completely wet with life.

[Daeluin]

This is Zhuangzi's concept of walking two roads.

 

The dao lies beyond duality. As the tao manifests into reality layers of creation arise. At first elemental forces of yin and yang, the qi between yin and yang, the four forces, five phases, six directions of qi, and so on. Each layer manifests in a new reshaping of the earlier layers, even as the earlier layers remain evident beneath the surface.

 

In this way, when we focus at the root of something we are able to see yin and yang alive at its heart.

Or, when we focus on the surface, we get more information about the current expression of momentum.

 

This momentum is all the same at the root, but on the surface it has precise motives and goals. Each of us has a particular momentum as well. We have the choice of using our momentum to create new layers, and today it would appear many  immerse themselves in this.

 

Or, we can focus on the root, the origin, the source, the dao. In this way we detach from creating new layers of expression and set our sincerity of intention upon the heart of things, and gradually work to dissolve the many layers of expression, returning them to the dao.

 

Even so, we continue to have a momentum within the forward motion of time. And externally this momentum moves through the world. So even as we detach from creating new layers, we must too find a way to navigate the ebb and flow of our momentum through the world.

 

This type of immersion into the world focuses on trusting where our momentum leads and using where we end up as lessons. Internally these lessons may require us to use our will to increase the power of the sincerity we have focused on our heart.

 

Externally, the increasing fullness and fineness of our energy touches upon everything we come into contact with, until it extends to the edges of the universe. If we attempt to control this energy, we create disharmony. If we surrender to flowing with this energy, we nurture the natural balances of harmony. So even as we become more deeply aware of our connection to all around us, to increase this connection we must immerse ourselves even deeper as we simultaneously develop greater ability to trust that everything around us is doing exactly what it needs to do.

 

When we are immersed and refined, there is no separation between one's self and another - this is the detachment within immersion. This is the acceptance of feeling the momentum of the other push and pull against the energy.

 

Internally it works the same way, accepting and trusting the organs and energies to flow the way they need to, even as our increasing connection to the dao returns them to fullness of health and begins to purify, refine, and return them to their primordial, unified states.

 

So even as we internally set a foundation upon our connection to dao, externally we undergo immersion into the dao, and become a fulcrum of dao.

Edited March 3, 2015 by Daeluin

[Stosh]

Often one way people compare paths is by whether they aim at detachment from the world, or a full engagement/immersion in the world and its cycles. But I've been thinking, this could be a false dichotomy. It depends exactly what you mean by 'detachment'.

 

One way to 'detach' is to leave behind the world. Drop all this for something transcendent which can only be experienced in the absence of everything making up the world.

 

But another way is to drop a certain way of relating to the world, detaching from views and cravings towards the world. And this seems to actually imply a deeper immersion in the world as it truly is, since self-made perceptual or conceptual barriers have been removed.

 

Thoughts?

Not speaking for anyone but myself, detachment , as a mental stance, suggests more of an independence -or freedom.

 one is not so compelled by illusory associations irrational fears , need for validations and so forth.

 

At first ones knee-jerk reactions are like the 'wild ox' .. powerful ,uncontrollable, ill considered , self destructive, a hazard to itself and everything else! dragging the one who should be master , all over the place. 

 

I imagine,, that with discipline, at first ,,then later with comfortable harmony .. one gains mastery of ones own impulses , crazy judgements and self destructive fears... through meditation , self contemplation , acceptance of oneself , compassion for others.     One lastly..becomes not  divided against oneself. 

 

The detachment issue isn't about living like a recluse ,self deprivation, trying to run away from ones circumstance or their own identity. Its a resolution of a problematic issue -- internal conflict.

One needs to step back , and look at themselves , get the clear perspective which one doesn't have in the heat of some obsession or illusion THAT is the detachment one should aim at.

(clearly I am far from perfect in this regard , but certainly , this is the point I understand the the lessons are meaning to teach)

Edited March 3, 2015 by Stosh

[Spotless]

Often one way people compare paths is by whether they aim at detachment from the world, or a full engagement/immersion in the world and its cycles. But I've been thinking, this could be a false dichotomy. It depends exactly what you mean by 'detachment'.

One way to 'detach' is to leave behind the world. Drop all this for something transcendent which can only be experienced in the absence of everything making up the world.

But another way is to drop a certain way of relating to the world, detaching from views and cravings towards the world. And this seems to actually imply a deeper immersion in the world as it truly is, since self-made perceptual or conceptual barriers have been removed.

Thoughts?

 

One cannot have a full engagement / immersion with attachment.

One does not "drop" attachment but it dissipates.

Nothing is removed, nothing is dropped, one does not change ones relating - this doing does not happen.

It is transcended not overcome.

 

 

[Yasjua]

Was just on a walk thinking about what I wanted to do with my life. This came to me:

 

That which requires no effort, yet involves you fully.

 

I feel that this was describing ordinary life, since I realized that my greatest desire is to live a normal life :-)

[seekingbuddha]

Some people have long sentences, difficult to comprehend;  others have short sentences packed with depth.  I agree with Spotless.   In my life, it has been slow and steady detachment.   Detachment has several layers/levels/degrees.    To the degree one  gets detached,  to that degree reality is revealed.   You do not  get immersed fully  into  reality,  but rather  you  get  full appreciation   of reality as it is, when detachment is performed.   As i detached to varying degrees,  various  taints disappeared in me,  without  me having to strive  for it.   Much happier life can be attained through simple detachments.  For example,  detachment  from  thought process,  leads to higher insights during meditation.  This is contrary to usual belief  that  more thinking will yield more insight/knowledge/sharpness.  Irony.

Edited March 8, 2015 by seekingbuddha

[taoteching99]

This is an old topic, but as something im currently going through,like to repost here ;

 

No comment yet though :-)

 

Thanks SoW

Edited March 22, 2017 by taoteching99

[taoteching99]

 

 

Got a comment now;

 

I would titled this :

 

Why should we blindly belief in no self?

 

..........

 

Drop " A certain way of relating to the world " .

 

I'm thinking not of detachment, but of self centeredness, and how we relate our ' centeredness' (selfishness) to the world.

 

Well, the world certainly means the social world (other people).But what if I try to apply this not my relation to the social world, but my very immediate experience as it is happening now.In other words, the world now means my subjective experience .

 

Why this subjective experience always self-centered? And how should relate to it?

 

One answer given by the traditions (Buddhism )is that Ignorance runs deep, can cannot be done away with easily.Thats why not many can breakthrough this and see through the reality of anatta (i.e. in truth there has never been a self to begin with).

 

So , one way to break through this bond of ignorance is by holding strongly (blind faith if u would, ) the contrary point of view,the point of view that there is no me,no self, no I. Because if one does not do this,the momentum of ignorance will always carried one back towards this I.

 

But this fixed view that there is no self (which is at this point only blind belief) must be complemented with virogous investigation into why there is no self, why truly, there is no separate individual here (and there).

 

By vigorous investigation means an investigative attitude, a strong desire to really know the nature of reality (which is no individual self) ,and not mere curiosity.

Edited March 22, 2017 by taoteching99

[Orion]

You could replace "the world" with "reality".

 

You can't get anymore into it or out of it than you already are. This present moment is all that there is.

 

If there is anything at all left to do, then it's merely deepening this recognition.

[Seeker of Wisdom]

[...]Why should we blindly belief in no self?

I wouldn't say we should, but it's a working hypothesis which fits into the rest of the Buddhist path. At the beginning anatta may make no sense whatsoever - that's fine, in that case just be open to it. Over time ime it becomes increasingly apparent that 'why should I blindly believe in self?' (I haven't had actual realization of anatta yet, but it just seems straightforward that it's true)   

 

Drop " A certain way of relating to the world " .

 

I'm thinking not of detachment, but of self centeredness, and how we relate our ' centeredness' (selfishness) to the world.

 

Well, the world certainly means the social world (other people).But what if I try to apply this not my relation to the social world, but my very immediate experience as it is happening now.In other words, the world now means my subjective experience .

 

Why this subjective experience always self-centered? And how should relate to it?

 

One answer given by the traditions (Buddhism )is that Ignorance runs deep, can cannot be done away with easily.Thats why not many can breakthrough this and see through the reality of anatta (i.e. in truth there has never been a self to begin with).

 

Subjective experience is the key thing to deal with here... any conscious, conceptual idea we have about 'self' comes after the instinctive grasping onto some aspect of experience as 'self', which is why any attempt to 'get rid of' the view of self without seeing experience as it actually is clearly (in the seen just the seen, etc) doesn't succeed. So long as experience isn't seen clearly, the mind will construct a 'self' regardless, and trying to convince it that it's mistaken just through thinking about it is like trying to run away from your shadow.

 

So , one way to break through this bond of ignorance is by holding strongly (blind faith if u would, ) the contrary point of view,the point of view that there is no me,no self, no I. Because if one does not do this,the momentum of ignorance will always carried one back towards this I.

 

Trying to just believe in anatta will not produce the necessary direct understanding imho (and could end up in depersonalisation/derealisation if misunderstood) though reflecting on it definitely does help you see it as a reasonable working hypothesis, which makes it easier to go on to see directly.

 

But this fixed view that there is no self (which is at this point only blind belief) must be complemented with virogous investigation into why there is no self, why truly, there is no separate individual here (and there).

 

By vigorous investigation means an investigative attitude, a strong desire to really know the nature of reality (which is no individual self) ,and not mere curiosity.

Exactly, it takes a method like vipassana... you have to 'come and see'.

[wstein]

Often one way people compare paths is by whether they aim at detachment from the world, or a full engagement/immersion in the world and its cycles. But I've been thinking, this could be a false dichotomy. It depends exactly what you mean by 'detachment'.

 

...

 

Thoughts?

Both detachment and presence (full engagement/immersion) are important to spiritual development. Together they are more valuable yet.

 

Obviously not all 'paths' teach both. That speaks to the incompleteness of various paths. It does not matter if you learn them from separate paths, the same path, or on your own.