The Four Yogas and the Spiritual Quest - which is better?

[dwai]

I've been reading some discussions that compare different approaches to the Spiritual quest. 

One camp seems to consider the intellectual inquiry method (aka Jnana Yoga) to be superior to others, while the other camp seems to prefer the body-mind-energy method (aka Raja Yoga).

 

I bring up the four yogas because this topic has been addressed in the Bhagavad Gita a few thousand years back.

 

The Bhagavad Gita covers four different approaches to the spiritual quest -

• The devotional way aka Bhakti Yoga, 
• The action without desire way - aka Karma Yoga (which essentially is Wu Wei approach)
• The mind-body-energy way - aka Raja Yoga
• The intellectual inquiry way - aka Jnana Yoga

If you read a good commentary on the Bhagavad Gita (or if you know sanskrit the original document), you will realize that all the four ways are considered equally good. Paradoxically, the translations of the verses on each way says "This <   > way is the superior way". When one reads only one section, they might come back with the impression that, that specific way is preferred over others. However, when taken into context of reading the entire book, it will become evident that specific characteristics are also mentioned about the type of person who might benefit from any one approach over the others. It depends on the mental, energetic and physical make-up of the seeker and no one way is absolutely better than another...it all depends

[Sahaj Nath]

the poll doesn't interest me. you already stated what you believe to be the one correct answer.

 

 

 

 

 

but about equating Karma Yoga with Wu Wei... i'd like to get your take on that. could you elaborate?

[Spotless]

a path is very personal to each of us - we come centered in different areas and we have deep seated instinctive patterns and racial proclivities. Our young conditioning adds to the mix and all of our answers come from within - so these directions that interest us do so from an inner attraction - if the attraction is strong enough to truly set upon any of these paths - then typically one will utilize two of them quite heavily with a bit of the others as well.

Edited March 5, 2015 by Spotless

[dwai]

the poll doesn't interest me. you already stated what you believe to be the one correct answer.

 

 

 

 

 

but about equating Karma Yoga with Wu Wei... i'd like to get your take on that. could you elaborate?

Yes. This is of course to be prefaced by saying "It is my humble understanding".

 

Karma Yoga entails something called "Nishkaama Karma" (translated as Action without desire). If we consider Wu Wei as being Action without active intention, in my mind it is similar.  Intention is predicated by desire (perhaps desire might be better replaced  by volition). The premise is that we undertake that action which happens naturally to us.  Certain things we cannot avoid (at least not till a significant level of mastery is reached - such as eating, breathing, etc. But those things too are not necessarily volitional, but a biological imperative). But for most things in life, only endeavors that are to be undertaken are those that we know either intuitively or via guidance from more advanced practitioners to be harmonious with Dao/Brahman. 

 

This is the gist of it.

[forestofclarity]

A lot of teachers also say that it is not necessarily about one or the other, but that all can be useful. 

[gendao]

a path is very personal to each of us - we come centered in different areas and we have deep seated instinctive patterns and racial proclivities. Our young conditioning adds to the mix and all of our answers come from within - so these directions that interest us do so from an inner attraction - if the attraction is strong enough to truly set upon any of these paths - then typically one will utilize two of them quite heavily with a bit of the others as well.

I totally agree!  I realized this myself a few months ago...

 

For example, dwai's underlying personal path might be "animal backtracking the origin."

Hundun's might be "stripping away the ego" (consciously others', but subconsciously his own).

Etc..?

 

BTW, how would you stereotype the instinctive & racial proclivities specifically as?

 

 

[lifeforce]

I've been reading some discussions that compare different approaches to the Spiritual quest. 

One camp seems to consider the intellectual inquiry method (aka Jnana Yoga) to be superior to others, while the other camp seems to prefer the body-mind-energy method (aka Raja Yoga).

 

I bring up the four yogas because this topic has been addressed in the Bhagavad Gita a few thousand years back.

 

The Bhagavad Gita covers four different approaches to the spiritual quest -

• The devotional way aka Bhakti Yoga, 
• The action without desire way - aka Karma Yoga (which essentially is Wu Wei approach)
• The mind-body-energy way - aka Raja Yoga
• The intellectual inquiry way - aka Jnana Yoga

If you read a good commentary on the Bhagavad Gita (or if you know sanskrit the original document), you will realize that all the four ways are considered equally good. Paradoxically, the translations of the verses on each way says "This <   > way is the superior way". When one reads only one section, they might come back with the impression that, that specific way is preferred over others. However, when taken into context of reading the entire book, it will become evident that specific characteristics are also mentioned about the type of person who might benefit from any one approach over the others. It depends on the mental, energetic and physical make-up of the seeker and no one way is absolutely better than another...it all depends

 

Dwai, (or anyone else for that matter), could you recommend a commentary/good translation which isn't school/sectarian based ?

Preferably an online version as I'm low on funds for new books   .

Thank you.

Edited March 6, 2015 by lifeforce

[dwai]

Dwai, (or anyone else for that matter), could you recommend a commentary/good translation which isn't school/sectarian based ?

Preferably an online version as I'm low on funds for new books   .

Thank you.

I'd avoid the Hare Krsna commentary. I've read a few commentaries, but for good introduction, Eknath Easwaran's book is pretty good (and pretty affordable imho).

 

http://www.amazon.com/Bhagavad-Gita-Classics-Indian-Spirituality/dp/1586380192/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1425678255&sr=1-1&keywords=bhagavad+gita

[lifeforce]

Thank you dwai.

My main interest is in developing a bhakti practice. The energetic side of my cultivation has been fulfilled.

Four years ago I received shaktipat which initiated a kundalini experience and started a process which has completely changed me as a person.

It started out as a very blissful experience which lasted for many weeks before subsiding.

I was left with confusion, doubt, many episodes in which I (and the people around me), thought I was going mad.

Bouts of depression, intermingled with elation and euphoria are the normal for me now as I've slowly learned to cope with my 'condition'. This has never deterred me from my mission in life, which was revealed to me at the time of my shaktipat, and that is of union with the Divine. I've jumped from book to book, scripture to scripture, in all traditions, looking for answers, which nearly all fall short of my lofty expectations.

I truly believe that my path lies in the ancient Indian texts, but sifting my way through them to find a practice which resonates with me is becoming increasingly difficult and confusing. 

So, basically I'm after some help and advice on starting and developing a bhakti practice which will last me for all my lifetime, and beyond.

Any help which you, or anyone can offer will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

[Jetsun]

Thank you dwai.

My main interest is in developing a bhakti practice. The energetic side of my cultivation has been fulfilled.

Four years ago I received shaktipat which initiated a kundalini experience and started a process which has completely changed me as a person.

It started out as a very blissful experience which lasted for many weeks before subsiding.

I was left with confusion, doubt, many episodes in which I (and the people around me), thought I was going mad.

Bouts of depression, intermingled with elation and euphoria are the normal for me now as I've slowly learned to cope with my 'condition'. This has never deterred me from my mission in life, which was revealed to me at the time of my shaktipat, and that is of union with the Divine. I've jumped from book to book, scripture to scripture, in all traditions, looking for answers, which nearly all fall short of my lofty expectations.

I truly believe that my path lies in the ancient Indian texts, but sifting my way through them to find a practice which resonates with me is becoming increasingly difficult and confusing.

So, basically I'm after some help and advice on starting and developing a bhakti practice which will last me for all my lifetime, and beyond.

Any help which you, or anyone can offer will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

If I was you I would go to see Amma (Mata Amritanandamayi) she will help you especially if you are interested in bhakti. She is one of the great historical Indian Saints alive to guide us today.

[9th]

 It depends on the mental, energetic and physical make-up of the seeker and no one way is absolutely better than another...it all depends

 

You've already answered your own question... correctly, imo.

[dwai]

Thank you dwai.

My main interest is in developing a bhakti practice. The energetic side of my cultivation has been fulfilled.

Four years ago I received shaktipat which initiated a kundalini experience and started a process which has completely changed me as a person.

It started out as a very blissful experience which lasted for many weeks before subsiding.

I was left with confusion, doubt, many episodes in which I (and the people around me), thought I was going mad.

Bouts of depression, intermingled with elation and euphoria are the normal for me now as I've slowly learned to cope with my 'condition'. This has never deterred me from my mission in life, which was revealed to me at the time of my shaktipat, and that is of union with the Divine. I've jumped from book to book, scripture to scripture, in all traditions, looking for answers, which nearly all fall short of my lofty expectations.

I truly believe that my path lies in the ancient Indian texts, but sifting my way through them to find a practice which resonates with me is becoming increasingly difficult and confusing. 

So, basically I'm after some help and advice on starting and developing a bhakti practice which will last me for all my lifetime, and beyond.

Any help which you, or anyone can offer will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

Hi Lifeforce,

 

Thanks for sharing the details. I'm no expert/guru/teacher, so I can't offer guidance of course. What i can do is share my thoughts on this matter. Bhakti in my mind is the ultimate love. In India, the bhakti movement during the middle ages in the form of devotees such as Mira Bai, Kabir Das, Ravi Das, etc was basically recorded in the form of poetry and devotional songs called Bhajans. 

 

One avenue I have used to evoke this extreme, unconditional love is via the route of these bhajans and poetry. To truly feel the love, to immerse into the essence of poetry. Unfortunately, these were written in the vernacular (and at that in the tongue of those times...14th-17th century) so some background is needed.

 

The "New Age" yoga movement in the West has some Bhaktas (devotees) who do sing bhajans - like Krishna Das (though I'm not very familiar with their work). You might have an entry into the bhakti world through their music. 

 

Second, bhakti is pure love for your deity of choice. If you had a deity that you could relate with from childhood, you might find it easier to surrender to the love for such a deity. Admittedly, in the Western world, you have limited choices when it comes to deities in the traditional culture (the idea of the deity therein is again based on Pure Love - so a relatively easy deity to focus on).

 

The deity concept is very interesting...and while it is dualistic, it is also very valuable to establish a connection with the divinity that is resident in us all. In our "intelligence" and "knowledgeable" state, we tend to lose the emotional/love aspect of things and everything becomes more energy or more mental. 

 

Hope that helps.

[Jetsun]

The "New Age" yoga movement in the West has some Bhaktas (devotees) who do sing bhajans - like Krishna Das (though I'm not very familiar with their work). You might have an entry into the bhakti world through their music. 

 

Second, bhakti is pure love for your deity of choice. If you had a deity that you could relate with from childhood, you might find it easier to surrender to the love for such a deity. Admittedly, in the Western world, you have limited choices when it comes to deities in the traditional culture (the idea of the deity therein is again based on Pure Love - so a relatively easy deity to focus on).

 

Krishna Das is a good example of someone who has fully devoted themselves on the Bhakti path, even if you don't like his style of music you can feel the power in his bhajans because even when he is singing at the Grammys you can tell he is really one-pointedly focusing on singing to his guru and the divine rather than to the crowd and tv cameras.

 

But with Krishna Das he was transformed by meeting the sage Neem Keroli Baba so he needed a middle man in order to facilitate his bhakti path, which is the case for many of us as far as I can see because who can so easily surrender directly to God? and without some kind of guidance it is easy to get lost because when it comes down to it what do concepts like the "divine" and "God" really mean and what really is a "deity"? they are pointing to something formless but in the case of people like Neem Keroli Baba and Amma that pure divinity has taken form in our realm for the benefit of humankind, (with Neem Keroli Baba being an emmanation of the deity Hanuman and Amma an emanation of the Divine Mother), which ultimately makes it easier for us to connect to those obscure concepts through their presence and what they represent. 

 

[lifeforce]

Hi Lifeforce,

 

Thanks for sharing the details. I'm no expert/guru/teacher, so I can't offer guidance of course. What i can do is share my thoughts on this matter. Bhakti in my mind is the ultimate love. In India, the bhakti movement during the middle ages in the form of devotees such as Mira Bai, Kabir Das, Ravi Das, etc was basically recorded in the form of poetry and devotional songs called Bhajans.

 

One avenue I have used to evoke this extreme, unconditional love is via the route of these bhajans and poetry. To truly feel the love, to immerse into the essence of poetry. Unfortunately, these were written in the vernacular (and at that in the tongue of those times...14th-17th century) so some background is needed.

 

The "New Age" yoga movement in the West has some Bhaktas (devotees) who do sing bhajans - like Krishna Das (though I'm not very familiar with their work). You might have an entry into the bhakti world through their music.

 

Second, bhakti is pure love for your deity of choice. If you had a deity that you could relate with from childhood, you might find it easier to surrender to the love for such a deity. Admittedly, in the Western world, you have limited choices when it comes to deities in the traditional culture (the idea of the deity therein is again based on Pure Love - so a relatively easy deity to focus on).

 

The deity concept is very interesting...and while it is dualistic, it is also very valuable to establish a connection with the divinity that is resident in us all. In our "intelligence" and "knowledgeable" state, we tend to lose the emotional/love aspect of things and everything becomes more energy or more mental.

 

Hope that helps.

Thank you dwai.

I was going to study the Gita, but I don't seem to have a connection or affinity with Krishna. However, Kali is drawing me ever closer. I feel a strong attraction. A deep, dark, mysterious longing that I've never felt before.

This is something I wrote recently :

 

"For a while now I've been having dreams/visions of a female being/deity/goddess. At first I thought it was Guanyin or Tara from Buddhism. She is strong, powerful, dark, mysterious, forceful, and beautifully sexual. More and more I've been drawn towards her. I now know this to be Kali, whom I'd never heard of before.

The little I've read and investigated, the more I am certain of her involvement in my life.

My life has changed so many times over the last 4 years. Physically, mentally, emotionally, spiritually and energetically I am unrecognisable from the Me of four years ago.

I thought this was down to my daily neigong practice, coupled with some sort of a midlife crisis.

I'm thinking now that it could be the involvement of Kali"

[dwai]

Krishna Das is a good example of someone who has fully devoted themselves on the Bhakti path, even if you don't like his style of music you can feel the power in his bhajans because even when he is singing at the Grammys you can tell he is really one-pointedly focusing on singing to his guru and the divine rather than to the crowd and tv cameras.

 

But with Krishna Das he was transformed by meeting the sage Neem Keroli Baba so he needed a middle man in order to facilitate his bhakti path, which is the case for many of us as far as I can see because who can so easily surrender directly to God? and without some kind of guidance it is easy to get lost because when it comes down to it what do concepts like the "divine" and "God" really mean and what really is a "deity"? they are pointing to something formless but in the case of people like Neem Keroli Baba and Amma that pure divinity has taken form in our realm for the benefit of humankind, (with Neem Keroli Baba being an emmanation of the deity Hanuman and Amma an emanation of the Divine Mother), which ultimately makes it easier for us to connect to those obscure concepts through their presence and what they represent. 

 

Yes, if one finds their Guru, then surrender to the Guru. I don't recommend this for westerners because of the various "incidences" wrt to Gurus in the West (some warranted, others manufactured). Personal deity makes sense to me because it is a one-to-one relationship with divinity. Of course, its not the way for all...

 

The deity doesn't necessarily have to be a Hindu deity of course. Choose your deity - it is called "Ishta Devata" (or Deity of choice) because of that. You choose the deity and you have a personal spiritual relation with him/her. 

[dwai]

Thank you dwai.

I was going to study the Gita, but I don't seem to have a connection or affinity with Krishna. However, Kali is drawing me ever closer. I feel a strong attraction. A deep, dark, mysterious longing that I've never felt before.

This is something I wrote recently :

 

"For a while now I've been having dreams/visions of a female being/deity/goddess. At first I thought it was Guanyin or Tara from Buddhism. She is strong, powerful, dark, mysterious, forceful, and beautifully sexual. More and more I've been drawn towards her. I now know this to be Kali, whom I'd never heard of before.

The little I've read and investigated, the more I am certain of her involvement in my life.

My life has changed so many times over the last 4 years. Physically, mentally, emotionally, spiritually and energetically I am unrecognisable from the Me of four years ago.

I thought this was down to my daily neigong practice, coupled with some sort of a midlife crisis.

I'm thinking now that it could be the involvement of Kali"

The Bhagavad Gita is not necessarily a "Krishna" document. It is a highly valuable spiritual document. So, I would recommend reading it for sure. There is bound to be stuff in there that'll make sense to you, appeal to you at a deeper level.

 

Mother Kali is a powerful deity, and if she calls, you should respond. But be clear about your motivations.

[Tibetan_Ice]

Yes, if one finds their Guru, then surrender to the Guru. I don't recommend this for westerners because of the various "incidences" wrt to Gurus in the West (some warranted, others manufactured).

Bad gurus aren't only found in the west....

 

INDIAN GURU UNDER INVESTIGATION FOR PERSUADING 400 MEN TO CHOP OFF THEIR TESTICLES

 

http://www.breitbart.com/texas/2015/03/04/indian-guru-persuaded-400-men-to-chop-off-their-testicles/

[dwai]

Bad gurus aren't only found in the west....

 

INDIAN GURU UNDER INVESTIGATION FOR PERSUADING 400 MEN TO CHOP OFF THEIR TESTICLES

 

http://www.breitbart.com/texas/2015/03/04/indian-guru-persuaded-400-men-to-chop-off-their-testicles/

My comment wasn't about Western Gurus, but about the controversy with Gurus in the West (irrespective of whether they are Indian or Western)...

[Veritas]

Thank you dwai.

My main interest is in developing a bhakti practice. The energetic side of my cultivation has been fulfilled.

Four years ago I received shaktipat which initiated a kundalini experience and started a process which has completely changed me as a person.

It started out as a very blissful experience which lasted for many weeks before subsiding.

I was left with confusion, doubt, many episodes in which I (and the people around me), thought I was going mad.

Bouts of depression, intermingled with elation and euphoria are the normal for me now as I've slowly learned to cope with my 'condition'. This has never deterred me from my mission in life, which was revealed to me at the time of my shaktipat, and that is of union with the Divine. I've jumped from book to book, scripture to scripture, in all traditions, looking for answers, which nearly all fall short of my lofty expectations.

I truly believe that my path lies in the ancient Indian texts, but sifting my way through them to find a practice which resonates with me is becoming increasingly difficult and confusing. 

So, basically I'm after some help and advice on starting and developing a bhakti practice which will last me for all my lifetime, and beyond.

Any help which you, or anyone can offer will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

 

If you want union with god/god realization you should read Ramakrishna. He worships god in the form of the goddess Kali and he was blessed with many visions of her. He says the aim of human life is god realization and he tells you how to attain that. Here's a link to an audio version of the Gospels of Sri Ramakrishna.

 

http://www.vedantauk.com/Readings.aspx

 

The link also has Vivekananda's (his chief disciple) commentary on the different yogas: bakti, karma, jnana, and raja yoga. Good luck on your journey!

[gatito]

I've been reading some discussions that compare different approaches to the Spiritual quest. 

One camp seems to consider the intellectual inquiry method (aka Jnana Yoga) to be superior to others, while the other camp seems to prefer the body-mind-energy method (aka Raja Yoga).

 

I bring up the four yogas because this topic has been addressed in the Bhagavad Gita a few thousand years back.

 

The Bhagavad Gita covers four different approaches to the spiritual quest -

• The devotional way aka Bhakti Yoga, 
• The action without desire way - aka Karma Yoga (which essentially is Wu Wei approach)
• The mind-body-energy way - aka Raja Yoga
• The intellectual inquiry way - aka Jnana Yoga

If you read a good commentary on the Bhagavad Gita (or if you know sanskrit the original document), you will realize that all the four ways are considered equally good. Paradoxically, the translations of the verses on each way says "This <   > way is the superior way". When one reads only one section, they might come back with the impression that, that specific way is preferred over others. However, when taken into context of reading the entire book, it will become evident that specific characteristics are also mentioned about the type of person who might benefit from any one approach over the others. It depends on the mental, energetic and physical make-up of the seeker and no one way is absolutely better than another...it all depends

 

I'm with you on this dwai, although my opinion is perhaps slightly different in that experience has taught me that all paths contain all 4 elements and it's just a matter of the proportion and intensity of each.

 

I was extremely suprised when I discovered that the majority of traditional vedanta (e.g. Dayananda Saraswati, James Swartz, etc.) miss(es) this point entirely.