Living Family Permaculture Vs Dead Cities

[eye_of_the_storm]

~ Continuation from another thread ~

Returning to this...




Moving away from this...

 

 

thelerner, on 06 Mar 2015 - 01:39, said:

eye of the storm, a billion or two people moving from this: a City (w/ highrise living) spreading out into this beautiful cabin (wood burning?) with 10 idealyic acres would be horrible for the planet.  Strangely enough city life, having 400 people living in one tall building is probably more ecological responsible then 100 cabins taking up a few squaire miles.   Wood burning is horribly inefficient and polluting.  Without modern farming we'd probably kill all wild life within a few years, not to mention finishing the job of deforesting the earth.   We are 7 billion people and counting.

 

High-rise more ecologically responsible?
 

Where do people who live in cities get food, fuel, electricity, building material etc from? Cities are dead space vacuums sucking the life out of the planet.
 

A vegetarian family* can easily live on a few acres, being say 90% self sufficient.. even growing their own timber on 1/2 to 1 acre supplying everything they need…  1/2 an acre of hemp for food and fuel also?

Everything would be locally grown organic. No shipping, fuel etc much less materials needed to build cars, trucks, roads… nor people having to travel daily to generally miserable jobs for the most part simply to feed themselves (with poor quality GMO food from supermarkets) + basic shelter.

Vast amounts of forests, rivers, oceans are being destroyed to support these cities.
 

Permaculture / Forest farming family gardens would increase biodiversity + an abundance of super vital food … opposed to vast amounts of land being used for animal consumption/ corporate mono-crops turning the world into a desert etc.
 

*Land required to feed 1 person for 1 year:
 

Vegan: 1/6th acre
Vegetarian: 3x as much as a vegan
Meat Eater: 18x as much as a vegan

 

“Our food our future.” Earthsave.

http://www.earthsave.org/pdf/ofof2006.pdf

 

//

Some stats from http://www.cowspiracy.com/facts/
 

Animal agriculture is responsible for 18 percent of greenhouse gas emissions, more than all transportation combined. 

Fao.org. Spotlight: Livestock impacts on the environment.

http://www.fao.org/ag/magazine/0612sp1.htm

 

Transportation is responsible for 13% of all greenhouse gas emissions.

Greenhouse gas emissions from this sector primarily involve fossil fuels burned for road, rail, air, and marine transportation.

Environmental Protection Agency. “Global Emissions.”

http://www.epa.gov/climatechange/ghgemissions/global.html

 

Livestock and their byproducts account for at least 32,000 million tons of carbon dioxide (CO2) per year, or 51% of all worldwide greenhouse gas emissions.

Goodland, R Anhang, J. “Livestock and Climate Change: What if the key actors in climate change were pigs, chickens and cows?”

WorldWatch, November/December 2009. Worldwatch Institute, Washington, DC, USA. Pp. 10–19.

http://www.worldwatch.org/node/6294
 

Methane is 25-100 times more destructive than CO2.

“Improved Attribution of Climate Forcing to Emissions.” Science Magazine.

http://www.sciencemag.org/content/326/5953/716.figures-only

 

Methane has a global warming power 86 times that of CO2.

NASA. “Methane: Its Role as a Greenhouse Gas.” Jet Propulsion Laboratory.

http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/education/pdfs/podest_ghg.pdf
 

Livestock is responsible for 65% of all emissions of nitrous oxide – a greenhouse gas 296x more destructive than carbon dioxide and which stays in the atmosphere for 150 years.

“Livestock’s Long Shadow: Environmental Issues and Options.” Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations. 2006.

http://www.fao.org/docrep/010/a0701e/a0701e00.htm

 

Fracking (hydraulic fracturing) water use ranges from 70-140 billion gallons annually.

“Draft Plan to Study the Potential Impacts of Hydraulic Fracturing on Drinking Water Resources.” EPA Office of Research and Development. United States Environmental Protection Agency, 2011.

http://www2.epa.gov/sites/production/files/documents/HFStudyPlanDraft_SAB_020711.pdf

 

Animal agriculture use ranges from 34-76 trillion gallons of water annually. [ii]

Pimentel, David, et al. “Water Resources: Agricultural And Environmental Issues.” BioScience 54, no. 10 (2004): 909-18.

http://bioscience.oxfordjournals.org/content/54/10/909.full

Barber, N.L., “Summary of estimated water use in the United States in 2005: U.S. Geological Survey Fact Sheet 2009–3098.”

http://pubs.usgs.gov/fs/2009/3098/

 

Agriculture is responsible for 80-90% of US water consumption.

“USDA ERS – Irrigation & Water Use.” United States Department of Agriculture Economic Research Service. 2013.

http://www.ers.usda.gov/topics/farm-practices-management/irrigation-water-use/background.aspx

 

Growing feed crops for livestock consumes 56% of water in the US.

Jacobson, Michael F. “More and Cleaner Water.” In Six Arguments for a Greener Diet: How a More Plant-based Diet Could save Your Health and the Environment.
Washington, DC: Center for Science in the Public Interest, 2006.

http://www.cspinet.org/EatingGreen/pdf/arguments4.pdf
 

One hamburger requires 660 gallons of water to produce – the equivalent of 2 months’ worth of showers. [iii]
 

Catanese, Christina. “Virtual Water, Real Impacts.” Greenversations: Official Blog of the U.S. EPA. 2012.

http://blog.epa.gov/healthywaters/2012/03/virtual-water-real-impacts-world-water-day-2012/

“50 Ways to Save Your River.” Friends of the River.

http://www.friendsoftheriver.org/site/PageServer?pagename=50ways

 

2,500 gallons of water are needed to produce 1 pound of beef.

Robbins, John. “2,500 Gallons, All Wet?” EarthSave

http://www.earthsave.org/environment/water.htm

Meateater’s Guide to Climate Change & Health.” Environmental Working Group.

http://www.ewg.org/meateatersguide/interactive-graphic/water/

“Water Footprint Assessment.” University of Twente, the Netherlands.

http://www.waterfootprint.org

Oppenlander, Richard A. Food Choice and Sustainability: Why Buying Local, Eating Less Meat, and Taking Baby Steps Won’t Work. Minneapolis, MN: Langdon Street, 2013. Print
 

477 gallons of water are required to produce 1 pound of eggs; 900 gallons of water are needed for cheese.

“Meateater’s Guide to Climate Change & Health.” Environmental Working Group.

http://www.ewg.org/meateatersguide/interactive-graphic/water/

1,000 gallons of water are required to produce 1 gallon of milk.

“Water trivia facts.” United States Environmental Protection Agency.

http://water.epa.gov/learn/kids/drinkingwater/water_trivia_facts.cfm#_edn11

 

5% of water consumed in the US is by private homes.
55% of water consumed in the US is for animal agriculture.

Jacobson, Michael F. “More and Cleaner Water.” In Six Arguments for a Greener Diet: How a More Plant-based Diet Could save Your Health and the Environment. Washington, DC: Center for Science in the Public Interest, 2006. http://www.cspinet.org/EatingGreen/pdf/arguments4.pdf

Oppenlander, Richard A. Food Choice and Sustainability: Why Buying Local, Eating Less Meat, and Taking Baby Steps Won’t Work. Minneapolis, MN: Langdon Street, 2013. Print.
 

The meat and dairy industries combined use nearly 1/3 (29%) of all the fresh water in the world today. “Freshwater Abuse and Loss: Where Is It All Going?” Forks Over Knives.

http://www.forksoverknives.com/freshwater-abuse-and-loss-where-is-it-all-go

 

Livestock covers 45% of the earth’s total land.

Thornton, Phillip, Mario Herrero, and Polly Ericksen. “Livestock and Climate Change.” Livestock Exchange, no. 3 (2011).https://cgspace.cgiar.org/bitstream/handle/10568/10601/IssueBrief3.pdf
 

Animal agriculture is the leading cause of species extinction, ocean dead zones, water pollution [iv], and habitat destruction.

Oppenlander, Richard A. Food Choice and Sustainability: Why Buying Local, Eating Less Meat, and Taking Baby Steps Won’t Work. . Minneapolis, MN : Langdon Street, 2013. Print.

“What’s the Problem?” United States Environmental Protection Agency.

http://www.epa.gov/region9/animalwaste/problem.html “Livestock’s Long Shadow: Environmental Issues and Options.” Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations. 2006. http://www.fao.org/docrep/010/a0701e/a0701e00.htm

“Fire Up the Grill for a Mouthwatering Red, White, and Green July 4th.” Worldwatch Institute.

http://www.worldwatch.org/fire-grill-mouthwatering-red-white-and-green-july-4th

Oppenlander, Richard A. “Biodiversity and Food Choice: A Clarification.” Comfortably Unaware. 2012

http://comfortablyunaware.com/blog/biodiversity-and-food-choice-a-clarification/

“Risk Assessment Evaluation for Concentrated Animal Feeding Operations.” U.S. Environmental Protection Agency – Office of Research and Development. 2004.

http://nepis.epa.gov/Exe/ZyPURL.cgi?Dockey=901V0100.txt

 

Every minute, 7 million pounds of excrement are produced by animals raised for food in the US. This doesn’t include the animals raised outside of USDA jurisdiction or in backyards, or the billions of fish raised in aquaculture settings in the US. [v]

“What’s the Problem?” United States Environmental Protection Agency.

http://www.epa.gov/region9/animalwaste/problem.html

“How To Manage Manure.” Healthy Landscapes.

http://www.uri.edu/ce/healthylandscapes/livestock/how_manure_overall.htm

 

335 million tons of “dry matter” is produced annually by livestock in the US.

“FY-2005 Annual Report Manure and Byproduct Utilization National Program 206.”
USDA Agricultural Research Service. 2008.

http://www.ars.usda.gov/research/programs/programs.htm?np_code=206&docid=13337

 

A farm with 2,500 dairy cows produces the same amount of waste as a city of 411,000 people. [vi] “Risk Assessment Evaluation for Concentrated Animal Feeding Operations.” U.S. Environmental Protection Agency – Office of Research and Development. 2004.

http://nepis.epa.gov/Exe/ZyPURL.cgi?Dockey=901V0100.txt

 

3/4 of the world’s fisheries are exploited.

“Overfishing: A Threat to Marine Biodiversity.” UN News Center.

http://www.un.org/events/tenstories/06/story.asp?storyid=800

“General Situation of World Fish Stocks.” United Nations Food and Agriculture Organization (FAO).

http://www.fao.org/newsroom/common/ecg/1000505/en/stocks.pdf

 

90 million tons of fish are pulled from our oceans each year. [vii]

“World Review of Fisheries and Aquaculture.” UNITED NATIONS FOOD AND AGRICULTURE ORGANIZATION (FAO). 2012.

http://www.fao.org/docrep/016/i2727e/i2727e01.pdf

 

For every 1 pound of fish caught, an average of 5 pounds of unintended marine species are caught and discarded as by-kill. [viii]

“Discards and Bycatch in Shrimp Trawl Fisheries.”
UNITED NATIONS FOOD AND AGRICULTURE ORGANIZATION (FAO).

http://www.fao.org/docrep/W6602E/w6602E09.htm

 

As many as 40% (63 billion pounds) of fish caught globally every year are discarded.

Goldenberg, Suzanne. “America’s Nine Most Wasteful Fisheries Named.” The Guardian.

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2014/mar/20/americas-nine-most-wasteful-fisheries-named

 

Scientists estimate as many as 650,000 whales, dolphins and seals are killed every year by fishing vessels.Goldenberg, Suzanne. “America’s Nine Most Wasteful Fisheries Named.” The Guardian. http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2014/mar/20/americas-nine-most-wasteful-fisheries-named
 

100 million tons of fish are caught annually.

Montaigne, fen. “Still waters: The global fish crisis.” National Geographic.

http://ocean.nationalgeographic.com/ocean/global-fish-crisis-article/

Fish catch peaks at 85 million tons.

“World Review of Fisheries and Aquaculture.” UNITED NATIONS FOOD AND AGRICULTURE ORGANIZATION (FAO). 2012.

http://www.fao.org/docrep/016/i2727e/i2727e01.pdf

 

Animal agriculture is responsible for 91% of Amazon destruction.

Oppenlander, Richard A. Food Choice and Sustainability: Why Buying Local, Eating Less Meat, and Taking Baby Steps Won’t Work. . Minneapolis, MN : Langdon Street, 2013. Print.

Margulis, Sergio. Causes of Deforestation of the Brazilian Rainforest. Washington: World Bank Publications, 2003.

https://openknowledge.worldbank.org/handle/10986/15060

 

The leading causes of rainforest destruction are livestock and feedcrops.

“Livestock impacts on the environment.” Food and agriculture organization of the United Nations (fao). 2006.http://www.fao.org/ag/magazine/0612sp1.htm
 

110 plant, animal and insect species are lost every day due to rainforest destruction.

“Rainforest statistics and facts.” Save the amazon.

http://www.savetheamazon.org/rainforeststats.htm

Oppenlander, Richard A. Food Choice and Sustainability: Why Buying Local, Eating Less Meat, and Taking Baby Steps Won’t Work. Minneapolis, MN: Langdon Street, 2013. Print.
 

26 million rainforest acres have been cleared for palm oil production. [ix]

“Indonesia: palm oil expansion unaffected by forest moratorium.” USDA Foreign Agricultural Service. 2013.http://www.pecad.fas.usda.gov/highlights/2013/06/indonesia/
 

136 million rainforest acres cleared for animal agriculture.

“AMAZON DESTRUCTION.” MONGA BAY.

http://rainforests.mongabay.com/amazon/amazon_destruction.html

Cows produce 150 billion gallons of methane per day. [xi]

Ross, Philip. “Cow farts have ‘larger greenhouse gas impact’ than previously thought; methane pushes climate change.” International Business Times. 2013.

http://www.ibtimes.com/cow-farts-have-larger-greenhouse-gas-impact-previously-thought-methane-pushes-climate-change-1487502

 

130 times more animal waste than human waste is produced in the US – 1.4 billion tons from the meat industry annually. 5 tons of animal waste is produced for every person. [xii]

Animal agriculture: waste management practices. United States General Accounting Office.

http://www.gao.gov/archive/1999/rc99205.pdf

 

2-5 acres of land are used per cow.

Oppenlander, Richard A. Food Choice and Sustainability: Why Buying Local, Eating Less Meat, and Taking Baby Steps Won’t Work. 

Minneapolis, MN: Langdon Street, 2013. Print.
 

The average American consumes 209 pounds of meat per year.

Haney, Shaun. “How much do we eat?” Real agriculture. 2012. (276 lbs)

http://www.realagriculture.com/2012/05/how-much-meat-do-we-eat/
“US meat, poultry production & consumption” American Meat Institute. 2009. (233.9 lbs)

http://www.meatami.com/ht/a/GetDocumentAction/i/48781

Bernard, Neal. “Do we eat too much?” Huffington Post. (200 lbs)

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/neal-barnard-md/american-diet-do-we-eat-too-much_b_805980.html

 

Nearly half of the contiguous US is devoted to animal agriculture. [xiii]
30% of the Earth’s entire land surface is used by the livestock sector.

Versterby, Marlow; Krupa, Kenneth. “Major uses of land in the United States.” Updated 2012. USDA Economic Research Service.http://www.ers.usda.gov/publications/sb-statistical-bulletin/sb-973.aspx#.VAoXcl7E8dt
 

“Rearing cattle produces more greenhouse gases than driving cars, UN report warns.”

UN News Centre, 2006.http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?newsID=20772
 

1/3 of the planet is desertified, with livestock as the leading driver.

“UN launches international year of deserts and desertification.”

UN news centre, 2006.http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=17076#.VAodM17E8ds

Oppenlander, Richard A. Less Meat, and Taking Baby Steps Won’t Work. Minneapolis, MN : Langdon Street, 2013. Print.
 

70 billion farmed animals are reared annually worldwide. More than 6 million animals are killed for food every hour. A well-fed world. factory farms.http://www.awfw.org/factory-farms/

Oppenlander, Richard A. Less Meat, and Taking Baby Steps Won’t Work. Minneapolis, MN : Langdon Street, 2013. Print.
 

Throughout the world, humans drink 5.2 billion gallons of water and eat 21 billion pounds of food each day. Based on rough averages of 0.75 gallons of water and 3 lbs of food per day.

Worldwide, cows drink 45 billion gallons of water and eat 135 billion pounds of food each day.

Based on rough average of 30 gallons of water and 90 lbs of feed per day.
 

Land required to feed 1 person for 1 year:

Vegan: 1/6th acre
Vegetarian: 3x as much as a vegan
Meat Eater: 18x as much as a vegan
 

“Our food our future.” Earthsave.

http://www.earthsave.org/pdf/ofof2006.pdf

 

1.5 acres can produce 37,000 pounds of plant-based food.
1.5 acres can produce 375 pounds of meat.
 

Oppenlander, Richard A. Less Meat, and Taking Baby Steps Won’t Work. Minneapolis, MN : Langdon Street, 2013. Print.
 

A person who follows a vegan diet PRODUCES 50% less carbon dioxide, 1/11th oil, 1/13th water, and 1/18th land compared to a meat-eater for their food.
 

CO2: “Dietary greenhouse gas emissions of meat-eaters, fish-eaters, vegetarians and vegans in the UK.” Climactic change, 2014.

http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs10584-014-1169-1/fulltext.html

Oil, water: “Sustainability of meat-based and plant-based diets and the environment.”
The American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, 2003.

http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/78/3/660S.full

Land: “Our food our future.” Earthsave.

http://www.earthsave.org/pdf/ofof2006.pdf
 

Each day, a person who eats a vegan diet saves 1,100 gallons of water, 45 pounds of grain, 30 sq ft of forested land, 20 lbs CO2 equivalent, and one animal’s life. [xiv]

“Water Footprint Assessment.” University of Twente, the Netherlands.

 

Edited March 7, 2015 by eye_of_the_storm

[eye_of_the_storm]

 

 

The Grasberg mine, owned by US company Freeport-McMoRan funding genocide and illegal occupation in Indonesian occupied West Papua

A gaping wound in the heart of West Papua, which was once a beautiful and sacred mountain, capped by a glacier, is visible from space.

Free West Papua Campaign here: freewestpapua.org/ and here: http://freewestpapua.org/take-action/

 

Factory farms, birds eye view... http://www.elephantjournal.com/2014/11/5-haunting-photos-birds-eye-view-of-what-factory-farms-are-doing-to-us-land/


 

[eye_of_the_storm]

Found these stats we can work with:

 

Total land area of North America (including Central America and the Caribbean): 24,486,305 km² (6,050,697,738 acres)Total population of North America: 514,144,046

 

Average population density of North America: 21.0 persons per square kilometer (11.77 acres per person)

 

Total land area of Earth: 148,939,100 km² (36,803,653,121 acres)

Total population of Earth: 6,553,289,000

 

Average population density of Earth: 44.0 persons per square kilometer (5.62 acres per person)

 

Source:

 

North America at http://en.wikipedia..../North_Ameri...

Earth at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth

Population Clock at http://www.census.go...ww/popclock....

 

6,050,697,738 / 514,144,046 = 11.7684 acres per person.

 

Land required to feed 1 person for 1 year:

Vegan: 1/6th acre

Vegetarian: 3x as much as a vegan

Meat Eater: 18x as much as a vegan

 

“Our food our future.” Earthsave.

 

http://www.earthsave...df/ofof2006.pdf

 

Nearly half of the contiguous US is devoted to animal agriculture. [xiii]

30% of the Earth’s entire land surface is used by the livestock sector.

 

Versterby, Marlow; Krupa, Kenneth. “Major uses of land in the United States.” Updated 2012. USDA Economic Research Service.http://www.ers.usda....px#.VAoXcl7E8dt

 

1.5 acres can produce 37,000 pounds of plant-based food.1.5 acres can produce 375 pounds of meat.

 

Oppenlander, Richard A. Less Meat, and Taking Baby Steps Won’t Work. Minneapolis, MN : Langdon Street, 2013. Print.

 

A person who follows a vegan diet PRODUCES 50% less carbon dioxide, 1/11th oil, 1/13th water, and 1/18th land compared to a meat-eater for their food.

 

CO2: “Dietary greenhouse gas emissions of meat-eaters, fish-eaters, vegetarians and vegans in the UK.” Climactic change, 2014.http://link.springer...1/fulltext.html

 

Oil, water: “Sustainability of meat-based and plant-based diets and the environment.”

The American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, 2003.http://ajcn.nutritio.../78/3/660S.full

 

Land: “Our food our future.” Earthsave.http://www.earthsave...df/ofof2006.pdf

 

Each day, a person who eats a vegan diet saves 1,100 gallons of water, 45 pounds of grain, 30 sq ft of forested land, 20 lbs CO2 equivalent, and one animal’s life. [xiv]

 

“Water Footprint Assessment.” University of Twente, the Netherlands.

[Lth]

way to go eyeofthestorm!

also there is a same amount of references of how plant based food is healthy and animal absolutely not

so basically its a win-win


p.s: there is enaf renewable energy from earth to sustain whole world for many thousand years to come, not to mention Nikola Teslas tower method of generating energy directly from the earths constant vibrational field, which is infinite

also the more advanced methods of growing like aquaponics, hydroponics (growing in water) and vertical farming can be set up easily to grow many times more food on an acre of land, not using soil and minimal energy. it also support marine life because the plants grow hand in hand with the fishies.

its a win-win im telling ya

[thelerner]

Exactly, the first picture in the OP shows a beautiful fertile land, there's not that much available for the world population.  Heck the 2 horses alone would need (i googled it) need '1 to 2 acres of well-established pasture per horse if you feed only pasture during the growing season'.   When the U.S gave away free crappy land it resulted in the late 1920's dust bowl.  When Mao forced people onto crappy land, it killed millions. 

 

ok.. that's a bit gloomy, truth is there are excellent solutions, but they're probably have to be family by family.

 

Paradoxically, the skyscrapers in the 2nd photo can be more environmentally sound then spreading people out over 1,000's of acres, knocking out forests and vast natural spaces.   Those skyscrapers can have gardens on top, and people can container garden on there balconeys.  There can be more community gardens in every park, cities can put up more fruit and nut trees and encouraging communal responsibility toward them.

 

 

 

In the U.S. there is so much waste.  If it was culturally acceptable and encouraged to turn our lawns and back yards into productive fruit & vegetable (& flower) dense gardens (I'd include chickens too) instead mono-cultural grass we'd be so much better off- physically, mentally, spiritually.

 

I put in a small, simple squaire foot garden in my front lawn and a couple of neighbors have followed (the garden is long but only 1 foot wide, so very easy to create and take care of).  The dream would be to find the sweet spot between maximum gain and minimum effort and resources.  There are some families who've gotten extreme produce from tiny areas but they put in a lot of work.

 

Anyone have a book recommendation for idealized city gardening set ups?   I bet Mother Earth magazine has some good ideas in that area, they helped inspire my front yard garden and some bread baking.  I'll see if they have a specific book that collects the best of urban farming.  Here's a link to there site: http://www.motherearthnews.com/

 

Even my library, always a good source,  has 3 different books on creating edible front laws and culinary gardens. 

Edited March 7, 2015 by thelerner

[voidisyinyang]

http://innersoundqigong.blogspot.com/2015/02/the-third-rail-population-exponential.html

 

I recently blogged on this topic based on the new amazing book Countdown.

 

Watch the new PBS doc that features the work of Allan Savory - I link it on my blog to watch in full.

 

 

[thelerner]

http://innersoundqigong.blogspot.com/2015/02/the-third-rail-population-exponential.html

 

I recently blogged on this topic based on the new amazing book Countdown.

 

Watch the new PBS doc that features the work of Allan Savory - I link it on my blog to watch in full.

good article.  Still while the prediction is dire, we waste an incredible amount of food.  With ethanol we  grow enough corn to feed whole nations and use it for very inefficient fuel.  We don't take advantage of home gardening or  alternate energy because what we have right now, is so damn cheap. 

 

It'd be better if that could change before economic realities force it too, but the changes don't have to be very drastic in order to bring about a better future.  Least not here in the West.  I can't speak for India.

 

<add on 3/30> speaking of corn the U.S grows 14.4 billion bushels a year, @ 35 pounds per bushel that's about 540 Billion pounds of the stuff.   That's a hell of a lot.  Course much is used inefficiently to feed cattle.  Some becomes corn syrup , and much of it.. I forget and am lazy, 1.4 billion bushels-ish goes into ethanol. 

 

I disagree with the ethanol program, its way inefficient, bad law.  But one can make money off of it.  Due partly to this conversation I've purchased some of the stock 'CORN',  its based on futures so its ultimately doomed by the contango affect, but I'm betting in the short run (a few months) more driving means more corn going into gas tanks means more higher prices.

Edited March 30, 2015 by thelerner

[voidisyinyang]

The corn feeding the world meme is a myth because the U.S. actually drives global hunger by dumping corn way below the local small farmer market prices.

 

I documented this in my 2000 op-ed at the U of MN Daily newspaper:

 

https://homelessholocaust.wordpress.com/2012/12/27/profile-on-the-largest-private-corporation-cargill/

 

Cargill, the world's largest private corporation.

 

So, for example, after NAFTA, Cargill-USAID dumped corn on Mexico, driving out the farmers, so immigrant was forced up here.

 

http://www.theguardian.com/global-development/poverty-matters/2011/jun/02/abcd-food-giants-dominate-trade

 

Glad to see the Guardian in 2011 has picked up some of my research. One paragraph is practically lifted from my op-ed. haha.

 

But they don't have the insights into what exactly is the problem.

 

It's funny how in the U.S. we think we are well-educated but in fact we are deeply mind-controlled. haha.

 

 

[liminal_luke]

I like visiting the natural world, but I wouldn´t want to live there.

 

Liminal

[voidisyinyang]

The idea that we are "separate" from the natural world is a hilarious misunderstanding and goes against Taoism fundamentally.

 

For example - I think - yeah the latest Audubon issue has an article on "electrosmog pollution."

 

It's now proven that birds are confused by the electrical pollution in cities - it messes up their directional orientation based on the magnetic fields of Earth.  https://www.audubon.org/magazine/march-april-2015/star-trek-how-birds-use-electromagnetic-cues

 

Now that is directly tied to qigong training also.

 

What the study found is if the birds are just out of the city - into the countryside - then they get their direction back.

 

It's not from any specific major pollution source - just all the electrical big grid stuff in the city.

 

 

After a couple of years, a pattern emerged. Robins kept on the university campus couldn’t orient using the earth’s magnetic field unless their cages were shielded with metal panels that block certain electromagnetic wavelengths. Robins at a different location, a mile outside the city limits, however, had no trouble. Furthermore, Mouritsen could create confusion in captive robins by placing them in shielded cages, then introducing wavelengths of electromagnetic radiation that were similar to those that had been blocked. 

 

The implication was clear: Manmade electromagnetic waves present in the city but absent in a rural setting were disrupting the birds’ ability to sense the magnetic field, a major finding that landed his team’s research on the cover of the prestigious journal Nature last May.

 

 

Then, of course, there's the real smog that kills hundreds of thousands in India - that has also been in the news recently.

 

India's Smog is Killing Off Crops that Could Have Fed 94 Million People

 

http://inhabitat.com/indias-smog-is-killing-enough-food-crops-to-feed-94-million-people/

 

So you get people meditating in the cities but obviously that kind of smog is gonna hinder their practice.

 

Anyway - that aquaponics urban farming article I posted http://www.startribune.com/local/295437781.html?page=1&c=y  looks promising. Twin Cities has a big new industrial-scale permaculture farm based on aquaponics so we can supply fresh greens not based on California - which has a permanent drought now.

 

Las Vegas will be out of water in 10 years.

 

But California supplies like a third of produce for U.S. and so a permanent drought does not bode well for future U.S. food supply.

 

Of course things will get drastically changed. The only real solution is to plant more trees.

 

Also the latest Expedition Unknown of Josh Gates cable show proved that the Mayan pyramid empire really did disappear from deforestation causing drought.

 

I wrote an op-ed on the water crisis also.

 

http://m.mndaily.com/2000/04/17/letters-editor

 

look at the denial idiot attacking me - that was 15 years ago right?

 

But now the water crisis is mainstream. That's the price of being ahead of your time. haha.

 

http://rt.com/news/176828-world-water-crisis-2040/

[liminal_luke]

Oh, I know, I know. My post was partially tongue-in-cheek. But there´s lots to like about a big city in spite of everything: the sometimes amazing mix of cultures, varied and delicious food, flourishing

microcommunities--everything from artists to people doing tai chi in the park.

 

Liminal

[the1gza]

There's nothing "unnatural" about cities, for honestly how could there be anything that exists that is "against" nature? I feel that one of the problems is that we look at nature in a certain romantic ideal: greenery, "the wild", uncivilized... all these ideals don't allow us to see other things. There are plenty of things about nature that very much unpleasant, unhealthy, and potentially life-threatening things without any help from us whatsoever. Volcanoes are natural, and yet no one would want to live there. So first I think there needs to be some serious review of just what it is we think about the ideals that we have in regards to many matters of "a better world".

 

Hell, let's just take food for example. Many of us are so worried about the food crisis without realizing certain fundamental things about our eating habits. Humans eat everyday, and they eat several times a day. In all honesty, this isn't something that is seen in the wild amongst mammals, especially those with relatively weak digestive systems like humans. Lions and tigers go days without eating, and their metabolisms can be quite high. Moreover, their lifespans are a 5th of ours, whether healthy or not. So in actuality, if a lion fasted for 3 days, it would be like fasting for 2 weeks. 

 

But hey, even if we didn't fast, there still a ridiculous amount of food out there in the world. But humans, having only prioritized a rinse-and-repeat style of living, actually clear land that already has food on it to make way for food that is privy only to that rinse-and-repeat style of living. Agriculture has been damaging to the environment FAR before GMO, pesticides, and corporations. It's just that industry has allowed people to do this far quicker than it did in the past, but people have been in the business of taking land and transforming it to serve a rinse-and-repeat form of eating and living. This has always involved eliminating natural wildlife and facilitating processes that are "unnatural". Nowhere in the wild do you see fields of the exact same plant grown devoid of other plant, animal, or fungal life.

 

So there are many things about "natural" living or "vegan" living that are pretty "unnatural". I'm a raw vegan myself, but in y work living this way, I found it ridiculously hard to even come close to living the raw ideal. Organic food isn't a solution; it's still been mutated from centuries of mutation due to cultivation in a monocultural environment. I tried being a forager, but honestly it wasn't worth for me PERSONALLY. I realized that I was severely outclassed to live according to the ideals of raw veganism, and I was supposedly hardcore because I didn't do it with a dehydrator, a masticating juicer, and on a budget of less than $30 a week. 

 

I don't see cities as being unnatural, but rather a reflection of perversion and insecurity can realize a nature that generates harmful results. I personally live in Chicago, and while there can be interesting things to take in, at the end of the day people are too cramped, too noisy, and despite this, too distant from one another. I could care less about "art" when the air is dirty. And even with all the different cultures living next to each other, people rarely even know each other well enough to actually "mix" cultures. Hell, Chicago is segregated as hell, to a point where literally crossing the street can be the difference between "affluence" and "ghetto". A lot of people think that the mixing is going on, but that's because they are moving so fast in life that they can't even see things from a quiet perspective. So folks just assume that a weekend with 40 shootings is normal, even though there are more than enough obvious stressors to exacerbate the problem.

 

But the results of city life are all natural: crime, pollution, lack of personal needs... these natural consequences of living in such a way. Moreover, it's a reflection of the height of rinse-and-repeat living, where things have been streamlined for convenience. Everything that is prioritized by modern human standards is easier than ever to get in a city, which is why it's so easy to find a "good time" that can"take you away" from the troubles of life. However, the very reason why you get enjoy those distractions is why city life is bad: "real life" is considered a trouble. Work, a bother. Family life, a bother. So there are things wrong with cities at the fundamental level that goes beyond what we are seeing as "the problem".

 

The city is the height of that rinse-and-repeat way of living, and perhaps that way of living is the most unnatural thing that humans work from. However, most of these naturalistic ideals are based off the same principle, just with a different principle. In order to save the world, everyone has to be vegan... well goodbye world or goodbye considerable-percentage-of-human-population. We got to look at the root fuel that drives an action, not just an action itself. Eating animals isn't wrong, but eating animals when you are steadfast to rinse-and-repeat principles... that might be another story. That's why I also feel that worldly solutions that don't involve self-realization or self-discovery as the fundamental anchoring medium for change will never garner a change that benefits the whole world. I'm not talking strictly cultivation of primordial force, although I think that is a natural consequence and equally capable of being done without all these ancient manuals (which are far more varied in thought and technique, and priority than most like to admit). Hell, if folks could just be honest with themselves, and not be afraid to do so because the truth does sound like the standard definition of good... just that alone could offer far more change than picking up some new way of doing the same thing. It's not action so much as the personal framework that fuels action

[Nungali]

I escaped the city over 20 years ago .

 

Its horrible out here !  Dont come. Stay in the city ... its more comfortable there !

 

 

 

 

 

 

[thelerner]

The corn feeding the world meme is a myth because the U.S. actually drives global hunger by dumping corn way below the local small farmer market prices.

But they don't have the insights into what exactly is the problem.

 

It's funny how in the U.S. we think we are well-educated but in fact we are deeply mind-controlled. haha.

So you didn't understand what I wrote.  I didn't mention Nafta or Mexico..  I was trying to get across that in ethanol we waste 1.3 billion bushels of corn a year.  If that was put on the free market world corn prices would go way down. 

 

Personally I found the analysis way to simplistic.  To figure out why corn prices move you need to figure in quite a few factors.  Concentrating on a single factoid like Nafta and you wouldn't be explain corn prices, like why they exploded from $2 in 2006 to over $7, 2012.  Its not that  its wrong but putting the responsibilities on a single metric is naive and would keeps you from understanding pricing dynamics.  Same blinder I see in far right wing and left wing politics, interpretations that are too simplistic because they ignore important variables.

 

PS.  Sorry to stop the flow the OP..

Edited March 7, 2015 by thelerner

[voidisyinyang]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFQm0x6ZZxw

 

I just watched this doc "Harvest of Empire" - if you want to understand food then watch it.

 

Over 2 million farmers in Mexico were driven off their land because of Cargill dumping corn in Mexico after NAFTA.

 

that's what the doc states.

 

It's not about right or left wing - it's imperialism promoted by Democrats and Republicans. haha.

 

http://www.citizen.org/trade/article_redirect.cfm?ID=11330

 

 

NAFTA eliminated quotas limiting corn imports (Mexico used to only import corn when its farmers’ production fell short of domestic needs) but allowed U.S. subsidy programs to remain in place – promoting dumping of corn into Mexico by U.S. agribusiness at below the cost of production. While U.S. corn exports to Mexico were almost all yellow corn in the mid-1990s, some 20% are now white corn. However, even before the U.S. white corn exports began to increase, the price paid to farmers in Mexico for corn fell by over 70% as huge amounts of U.S. yellow corn were dumped in the Mexican market.

 

So corn isn't gonna feed the world because the U.S. imperialist distribution system is based on under-mining local farmers in other countries.

 

Also the huge monocultural farms in the U.S. are dependent on mining phosphorus which is a very limited supply and like my blogpost says - the natural gas sourced ammonium factories for nitrate fertilizer - and then petrochemicals for other farm sources.

 

So yeah it's a huge fake system based on over-using water - the Green revolution is dependent on very limited resources that are not renewable.

 

Farming in Asia and Africa traditionally relied on humanure compost and animal compost, etc.

 

But oh well - kind of too late now - global warming is actually traced to the growth of Western plow-based farming as it spread out of Western Asia into Europe and then across the world.

 

A good book on the subject is Ecological Imperialism by Alfred Crosby.

 

[voidisyinyang]

Yeah the below addresses the agrofuel scam creating a world food crisis but it is just symptomatic of deeper issues:

 

Corporate Agribusiness Helps Scuttle Climate Justice in Copenhagen

Climate change and agrofuels U.S. Corporate Agribusiness Helps Scuttle Climate Justice in Copenhagen

• Published on Tuesday, 22 December 2009 05:08

By: John E. Peck, executive director, Family Farm Defenders, and member group of Via Campesina

 

 

 

As the old saying goes, with crisis comes opportunity, and that has certainly been the mentality of the corporate lobbyists that have descended in droves upon the U.N. Climate Change Conference (COP15).  In fact, the largest non-governmental organization (NGO) at the negotiations in Copenhagen is the International Emissions Trading Association (IETA) - a front goup representing 170 companies and hosting 66 different COP15 related events.  Sadly, many government officials and even some non-profit groups have fallen for this sleight of hand, mistaking an old style protection racket for new found corporate responsibility.  The phony accord which Pres. Obama left behind in Copenhagen is a disastrous step backward.  More business as usual in the North will only mean a deadlier nightmare for the South.  We have no where to run, warned Apisai Ielemia, Prime Minister of Tuvalu, one of the Pacific island nations at COP15 doomed to disappear with rising sea levels.

 

The simple fact that pollution prevention, not hypothetical remediation, remains the best cure for global climate change was lost in the official debate in Copenhagen.  Instead, capitalist free market mechanisms for avoiding clean-up costs in the North and shifting offset burdens to the South are being touted as the latest quick fix remedy.  Under cap and trade, it pays to inflate greenhouse gas emissions to receive as many free hot air credits as possible and then to trade these fictitious commodities on derivative markets.  Dubbed sub-prime carbon by Friends of the Earth in a recent report, speculators now dominate this $126 billion offset market expected to exceed $3 trillion by 2020.  Like the mark to market scam that enabled Enron to count future potential earnings as current profits, carbon trading has proven extremely lucrative in terms of generating investor dividends even as it fails to provide tangible benefits.

 

Back in 2007 Peter Atherton of Citigroup admitted that the largest carbon trading market, the European Emissions Trading Scheme (EETS), had failed to actually curb greenhouse gas emissions.  Nonetheless, Citigroup cut a deal with Cargill forming Sindicatum Carbon Capital to develop theoretical least cost options for greenhouse gas reductions.  J.P. Morgan then moved to acquire EcoSecurities Group, another carbon credit speculator with which Cargill has a strategic partnership.  This summer former Goldman Sachs executive, Gary Gensler, was appointed by Pres. Obama to head the Commodity Futures Trading Commission (CFTC), making him the de facto U.S. Carbon Trading Czar since the CFTC regulates the Board of Trade where the Chicago Climate Futures Exchange is based.  This move does not sit well with many family farmers, who point out that the CFTC has long been asleep at the wheel, and are demanding that the U.S. Dept. of Justice (DoJ) complete a pending investigation of price fixing in the dairy industry, conducted via block cheddar trading at the Board of Trade.  The DoJ is scheduled to hold national listening sessions on other anti-trust cases against corporate agribusiness early next year.

 

U.S. corporate agribusiness has been anxious to jump on the carbon trading bandwagon for over a decade now.  Monsanto was among the first to argue that chemical no-till in particular, its patented Round-Up Ready version could satisfy up to 30% of the U.S. target for greenhouse gas emission reductions.  Through its role in the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC), Monsanto eventually convinced the Bush White House to include agricultural offsets as one of its preconditions for climate talks, a position ultimately rejected by the European Union and which contributed to the U.S. abandoning the Kyoto Protocol.  The Chicago Board of Trade remains the only carbon market that will now accept chemical no-till biotech crop offsets. Monsantos influential role in the Roundtable on Responsible Soy (RTRS) has even led the World Wildlife Fund (WWF) to endorse carbon credits for biotech soy.   Since Obamas election, Monsanto has spent millions lobbying Congress on climate change legislation, and the proposed Waxman Markey bill includes offsets for chemical no-till once again.   In recognition of its latest bout of self interest, on Tues. Dec. 15th  Monsanto was presented the Angry Mermaid award in Copenhagen by Canadian author/activist, Naomi Klein, on behalf of Friends of the Earth.

 

Not up for debate in Copenhagen is the fact that industrial agriculture is one of the leading culprits behind the current climate crisis.  Agriculture accounts for an estimated 20% of U.S. greenhouse gas emissions, and in 2005 alone U.S. farmers generated as much carbon dioxide as 140+ million cars.  Chemical intensive monocultures of genetically engineered corn and soybeans now dominate the Midwest landscape, requiring vast amounts of fossil fuels to synthesize the necessary fertilizers and pesticides, as well as to deliver the commodity crops to far-flung markets.  Food on average travels 1500 miles from farm to plate in the U.S.  And there are even more emissions to address for instance, the hydrogen sulfide, methane, ammonia, and nitrous oxide emanating from millions of animals increasingly confined in factory farms.  Livestock now generate 130 times more sewage than people in the U.S.

 

However, as author/activist Michael Pollan notes, it is energy not land that is the true limiting factor in agriculture.  Yield per acre is hardly the best way to measure farming success, especially in an era of peak oil.  Using this criterion, U.S. agriculture is among the least efficient in the world, since it requires 10 calories of fossil fuel derived inputs to produce just one calorie of food output.

 

http://viacampesina.org/en/index.php/actions-and-events-mainmenu-26/-climate-change-and-agrofuels-mainmenu-75/822-us-corporate-agribusiness-helps-scuttle-climate-justice-in-copenhagen

 

The ph.d. who authored this is my old activist mentor.

Edited March 7, 2015 by Innersoundqigong

[Lth]

lol people are stupid

[eye_of_the_storm]

Average population density of Earth: 44.0 persons per square kilometer (5.62 acres per person)

 

Livestock covers 45% of the earth’s total land.

Thornton, Phillip, Mario Herrero, and Polly Ericksen. “Livestock and Climate Change.” Livestock Exchange, no. 3 (2011).https://cgspace.cgia...IssueBrief3.pdf

 

Nearly half of the contiguous US is devoted to animal agriculture.

30% of the Earth’s entire land surface is used by the livestock sector.

 

Versterby, Marlow; Krupa, Kenneth. “Major uses of land in the United States.” Updated 2012. USDA Economic Research Service.http://www.ers.usda....px#.VAoXcl7E8dt

 

If the land is fertile enough to produce cows/ crops for "livestock" it should be fertile enough for humans to successfully cultivate into small vegan/ vegetarian organic permaculture farms (no reason native plants can't be encouraged either with wildlife corridors) ... so lets say 30% of 5.62 acres per person .. = 1.686 acres per person... even if you want to half that... 0.843 acres per person... 15% of the entire land surface available for permaculture...

 

between a family of 4 that is a 3.372 acre plot of land which is more than enough to be self sustaining

 

Urban Agroecoloy: 6,000 lbs of food on 1/10th acre - Urban Homestead - Urban Permaculture

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NCmTJkZy0rM

 

 

I can give a number of examples of vegan professional athletes, Olympic gold medalists, world arm wrestling champion, ultra-marathon champions, cyclists, martial artists, world strong man etc

 

In a study on longevity...50 healthiest peoples in the world... all practice 95% vegan/vegetarian diet.

 

Vegetarians live longer and have a considerable lessening of all diseases. For example "one study showed that vegetarians under the age of 65 were 45% less like to suffer a heart attack than were meat eaters."

 

7 Reasons Vegetarians Live Longer

http://time.com/9463/7-reasons-vegetarians-live-longer/

 

 

There's plenty of evidence showing that vegetarian diets are great for your heart and waistline and even protect against cancer. But a new study of more than 73,000 Americans showed that it can help you live longer too. People with a plant-based diet in the study had a 20 percent lower mortality rate than meat eaters.

 

//

 

"Based on this study and other recent research, on average, vegetarians and semi-vegetarians tend to add about 10 years to their lives," says Sam Soret, coauthor of the study and associate dean of Loma Linda University School of Public Health. "This doesn't mean that every individual can automatically extend his life by going vegetarian because, besides diet, the genetic lottery plays a role in longevity. But having these results from such a huge group of people makes it undeniable that diet is a critical component impacting [lifespan]."

 

Read more: http://www.mensjournal.com/health-fitness/health/go-vegetarian-live-longer-20140717#ixzz3Tl0jHwGR

 

 

It is the optimal human diet... only difference is people unwillingness / lack of will power/ mind/ blood-lust... being slaves to their stomachs they find all types of excuses.

 

Many peoples bodies are riddled with parasites that feed on decaying flesh, they create a lot of the cravings/ desire people have through bio-chemical communication... and the "need" for animal flesh etc.

[eye_of_the_storm]

I said from the very first post "A vegetarian family* can easily live on a few acres, being say 90% self sufficient."

 

In my last post ..."between a family of 4 that is a 3.372 acre plot of land which is more than enough to be self sustaining"

 

I've just had to repeat the same facts a number of times, make things more plain etc

 

I don't know any sick vegans eating a plant based diet.

 

I know of a number of vegans who post blood results every so often just as further proof of their health.. to the "shock of their doctors" who have believed all the nonsense drilled into them at universities funded by pharmacological + agri industry.

 

Let us not mention the 100 million killed by the SAD.

 

We are told all humans are the same hm?

 

Apparently when it comes to diet we are all different excuses though.

 

Allowed is an interesting word when you are killing another creature to feed on.

[the1gza]

I know several people who are vegans, raw food vegans, fasters... several of them are unhealthy with several issues that make them just as "sick" as "SAD" eaters. When I got to know these people, I found that there was a common thread: lacking self-awareness. They could quote every health ideal out there, but that was about all that was healthy about them. When it came to them being honest with themselves, seeing that what they followed caused great deals of stress and strife for them, not to mention self-depreciating thoughts from reading all these books who told them they were "bad"... it wasn't a good look.

 

I'm not saying this is the case for everyone, I know several healthy people who follow all the above diets, including SAD. But it wasn't because of actions, it was because of the current of person that took those actions. Mass world uni-action where everyone has to do the exact same thing... this has been attempted since the dawn of time. It's the idea behind pretty much every form of oppression out there, even though many of these forms of oppression are birthed from "righteous" ideals. 

 

I think people might have to admit that the "New World" that folks are looking for requires a "new human" that people can't conceive of right now. As such, we can only do what's best for ourselves, and try to learn what those things truthfully are. Worldwide veganism is a possible answer, but so would be a people who could learn to systematically fast for 2 weeks or everyone learning to cultivate their inner selves. But if you honestly try to push others to do it just because you think it's right, rather than creating environments where people are capable of doing what's right for them... it'll just be the same story.

[the1gza]

Ummm, aren't plants creatures, who have also been proven to do things as sophisticated as to respond to human language? Come on, as a raw vegan I gotta say that vegan ideals are far from "universal human ideals".

[voidisyinyang]

http://www.motherjones.com/blue-marble/2015/03/vice-goes-antarctica

J

ust watched the new Vice report - mind-blowing.

 

The glaciers are melting way faster - 60 years ahead of schedule.

 

We're talking 1 meter rise in ocean water - very soon - they say within 100 years but that was the current prediction. Everything is speeding up.

 

So that will displace 300 million people worldwide - just a 1 meter rise.

 

It will happen - it's inevitable and can't be stopped - just a matter of how soon.

 

All those people not only have to move - the huge mega-cities on the coasts - but also a lot of farm land will be lost.

 

Bangladesh has already had 25,000 refugees from the ocean rising - and all those people lost farm land.

 

But it will rise to a million people soon in Bangladesh.

 

http://ecowatch.com/2015/03/06/hbo-vice-climate-deniers-sea-level-rise/

 

Shanghai, Miami, etc.

 

 

 

[eye_of_the_storm]

"As such, we can only do what's best for ourselves, and try to learn what those things truthfully are"

If you read the numbers in the first page you'll see "what is best for ourselves" is killing the planet.

"But if you honestly try to push others to do it just because you think it's right, rather than creating environments where people are capable of doing what's right for them..."

Animal slaughter is pushed 24/7 ... can't walk down the street without it being advertised or to smell flesh burning

Nothing would happen in this world if it wasn't for activists compelling humanity forward.

This is also a thread you have chosen to engage in

 

Edited March 8, 2015 by eye_of_the_storm

[eye_of_the_storm]

Ummm, aren't plants creatures, who have also been proven to do things as sophisticated as to respond to human language? Come on, as a raw vegan I gotta say that vegan ideals are far from "universal human ideals".

 

Plants are alive too yes

 

It is about creating as less harm as possible in this world... and working together, mutual benefit.

 

I mostly eat fruit which is offered by the tree... not killing it.

 

Herbs and other I take some of the plants leaves... the plant remains alive and grows more vigorously.

 

An Oak tree would have a lot more consciousness I believe than say grass and other leafy vegetables... lettuce etc.

 

 

Edited March 8, 2015 by eye_of_the_storm

[the1gza]

Hey man, you can feel what you want, and no one is telling you that you don't have the right to do so. I'm just pointing out that there are some heavy and pretty isolating components to the views that really push them far out of the realm of "universal". I mean there's assumptions about things that can't even be verified to be truthful (I've experienced plenty of consciousness from grass) and only considers things humane because what we look at is closer to us. I can in now way consider killing a plant more humane than an animal simply because it does not resemble me as much, or because it isn't as "big" to me as something else. But that's me, and hence I'm not taking activist roles because I realize that my thought pattern may vary drastically from others. If I'm going to talk about "what's good for humanity", I gotta be able to take those things into account. The question is, does your ideal honestly come close to that if you are capable of looking at it from a perspective that has not already accepted it yet?

 

And despite all this work activists have done, how much less racism, violence, sexism, or prejudice is there out there? Who's stopped Monsanto from monopolizing seeds, or throwing farmers off their land due to legal back-handing? With all this environmental work, why are pollution rates continuing to escalate to monumental proportions? I'm not saying they aren't doing work, or what they do is not working, but how can you say they are so effective at pushing humans forward when the very things people "activate" against are stronger now than they have ever been? And I'm asking because this is a forum I attend to, and quite frankly it would be useful if people write about topics that can actually be applied, today, by people who attend the forum. I also personally have experience as a vegetarian, vegan, and raw vegan (raised since birth as a vegetarian), so I at least got some 2+ decades worth of living with a lifestyle based in the dietary ideal you are promoting. So I'm posting questions trying to learn your angle, and giving my opinion, which is all it is, based on my experience. If it's problematic for you... just let me know.