Re the model for a doable anarch: let's alpha test it

[Taomeow]

I've just watched, for the n→ time, a train of ad hominem roll over a train of thought going in the direction the travelers of a pre-installed track want blocked and torn down.  More and more iron trails are being installed for the specific purpose of cutting, blocking, demolishing any and all paths whereby one might wander off somewhere else, somewhere not pre-installed.  Join the ride, run for your life, or get cut to pieces -- these are the only options being offered.  They aren't getting off the train to explore your humble little footpath.  Get on the train or face the wrath of the machine.  

 

I propose a section closed to the machine.  I propose a section where the following model of communication would be tested:

 

you come to share your ideas, however outlandish, to see if there's any fellow travelers on that particular path who want to walk with you for a while.  Gaping at a butterfly or a UFO, mistaking a shadow of a bush for a shadow of a Bush, laughing at your mistake or indeed finding a Bush in the bush, or some other exotic lizard.  "Thought so!"  The trick being that anyone who comes to tear down this path would be immediately banned from this particular section.  It's a tribal abode -- and intruders are never welcome, not for a second.  It is a fortress, embattled, wise, it does not expect any safety outside its walls -- but it's safe inside.  Be a member of the tribe, or go back to your own tribe.  Don't come here with discord.  Come with a fishing rod and join the fishing expedition when we are on a fishing expedition, don't come throwing stones into the lake scaring off all the fish, don't come telling us we should go to the supermarket for a can of tuna instead.  Don't throw stones at our heads for thinking differently from yours.     

 

This is not an "off off-topic" section I'm proposing, this is "off limits to discord."  The topic does not flourish just because it's "any" topic.  It flourishes if it's a topic closed to those who don't want it to exist in the first place, for whatever reason.  It flourishes if the missionary does not intrude on your village, whether a peaceful one or a settlement of warriors.  Warriors too need to come home and rest by the fire and tell the stories of the wars they've waged and the wars waged against them to people who are members of their own tribe -- for our purposes, the tribe of this particular topic -- sympathetic, empathetic, never forcing the tired warrior to defend herself in front of the fireplace where she's trying to catch a break, out of the blue, just because they can.  I propose a section where they can't.  Come sit by the same fireplace, listen to the story, tell your own, or go away.  

 

Is this kind of anarchy doable?  Anyone up to testing it?  The rules would be simple -- contribute constructively, not destructively, to the topic offered.  Or go away.  Argue elsewhere.  Here, let's talk with the understanding that it is one hundred percent safe.  No one will attack you or your ideas.  No one will demand that you stop knowing what you know and instead be barraged with demands that you start proving to someone else whatever the whatever crawled up their ass wants you to prove.  No wet blankets, no nay sayers, no professional spirit deflators, no corrective facilities for the incorrigible independent thinkers, nothing of this kind -- go to your own train and to your own tribe to peruse these.  Here, the worst thing that can happen to you will be, you will find you are a tribe of one, no one is joining you by the fireplace.  There will be no other retributions whatsoever for your being you.  

 

Anyone interested?..

[Marblehead]

Well, I thought that was what I was doing here all along.  The only criteria I wouldn't be able to adhere to is the part above about no arguing.  With the people of the world I sometimes agree and sometimes I disagree.  I will never agree with something I disagree with although I will grant the other the right to believe as they do.

[Taomeow]

The whole point of the section, Marblehead, would be that if you disagree, the world is your oyster -- everybody disagrees with everybody everywhere, no need to search high and low for a place where people will come to bicker and argue.  But this is conceived of as a separate and sovereign state apart from the world of discord.  You are free to disagree and argue -- anywhere beyond its borders.  Within its borders, all freedoms are allowed except the freedom to encroach on someone else's freedom.  Someone else's freedom of expression will be granted as absolute freedom, free from the need to defend it.  Challenging it in any manner for any purposes would be forbidden.  And nothing else.      

Edited March 8, 2015 by Taomeow

[Marblehead]

 Within its borders, all freedoms are allowed except the freedom to encroach on someone else's freedom.  This one will be forbidden.  And nothing else.      

I will keep current with this thread to see where it might lead.

 

But yes, the highlighted above is the root belief of Anarchy.

[Taomeow]

For me personally, it's going to be the last experiment.  Forums may have outlived their usefulness and do not justify the expenditures of shen anymore.  Not just this forum, but the whole forum culture may be suffering from -- well, I'll leave it to your imagination what I have come to feel it's suffering from. 

 

So, if the format can't be changed to reinvent this usefulness once again, it may no longer be useful at all from my perspective. 

 

Example of what I mean: there were misogynistic threads in the general section, and then talk about the need for a safe haven for women to discuss their stuff, resulting in the creation of the Women's cultivation forum, resulting in more misogynistic threads -- and some women accustomed to cultivating the art of deferring to misogyny by all their prior training promptly welcomed them.  What is a woman who was looking for a safe haven to conclude?  That it ain't it.  Before that: the Taoist forum was created, for the specific purpose of taoists not having to argue, defend, prove, etc, THEIR thing.  Look at it now.  Ain't it.  So, what does someone do who wants to explore and share but doesn't want to argue, defend, prove, much less get attacked?  Try something different -- or if that doesn't work, call it quits.  So, if this never takes off, or fails right away, I won't be surprised.  Most alpha tests do.      

[zerostao]

we can avoid the stampeding herd mentality here?

[Taomeow]

That's the idea.  Put a wall in the way and the whole stampede will go elsewhere to trample something else.  Can't stop the stampede, but can keep it out of a stronghold maybe?  

[thelerner]

hmm, sounds like the ability to create a post, similar to Personal section where the creator has complete editing rights over the whole thread.   Interesting.  Might be hard to program.

 

As an experiment I say..why not, if the powers that be can do it.   What would we call it?? 

Ontrack section. 

Controlled Conversation Area, yeah thats better. 

 

CCA's where the conversation is controlled by the creator.  Though to me its the opposite of anarchy, its tight control.  There is something in the air these days.  I know I've been taken on a more negative slant lately.  But.. its the dog sled days of winter, we're all tired, cold and hungry for the sun and warmer better times.   Less tolerant, seemingly even when almost but don't quite agree with us.

[Taomeow]

What dog sled days of winter?  We had no winter this year, not even the so-called SoCal winter.  Everybody complained.  "Too hot."  Too hot in January, too hot in February.  Can't please 'em no matter what you give 'em.  At least it's comforting to know that it means nothing at all -- happened before, will happen again -- for lo, the Chinese just completed a largest scale climate   study that showed the North Pole is gaining (not losing) ice at a record rate and we shouldn't be worrying about the global warming, per their data, instead we should be worrying about the new ice age that's almost upon us.  (Here's an example of a subject where the OP would want total control -- or else there would be no end to bickering.  No end till the end of the coming ice age. )   

 

The prerequisite for a successful anarchy IS tight control of some fundamental foundational principle.  An example is gravity.  It is totalitarian.  If you don't like it, go to outer space.  But this is the world where everything you are free to do, you are free to do because this ironclad totalitarian law is always in place.  So you don't worry when you buy a house that it will fly away.  And you don't worry that your wonderfully reliable car will free-fall up the hill and away from you in an unpredictable direction.  This kind of a rule.  ONE rule, no more.  But one ironclad rule.  No exceptions.

 

The difference between this proposed section and the PPF is that PPF is about what's of interest to a particular owner.  I post a lot of notes for myself there regarding Chen taiji, e.g..  No one will read it who is not practicing that.  So the audience for a PPF is very limited.  But this section would have all subjects -- and each and every one of them would be safe for the OP to explore, no one will have the right to challenge anything there, at the penalty of instant and permanent ban if the OP so chooses.  I don't know if it's doable technically but if it was, I would give each OP the mod controls in this section, just like in the PPF, but for purposes of the thread you create only.

 

Oh, and of course anything that is against the rules of the forum in general would be still moderated by the regular mods.  E.g. no one would be allowed to start a thread dedicated to harassing, belittling, attacking, or threatening another member. 

[dogson]

Taomeow, I empathize tremendously about the relentless aggression/negativity/hostility on forums, and I'm coming to the end of my rope with it as well. I honestly think the medium is to blame. Biologically we just aren't designed to sit in front of screens, unmoving, and interact with each other in a way that renders us incapable of feeling each other's energy. In this medium, all we're left with is our intellect, so it is quite literally a heartless way of communicating.

 

(As a quick sideline, online dating sites are miserable experiences for both genders, for this reason. Women are beseiged by creepers with almost no consequence for unbridled creeping/sexual harassment, and men are judged viciously due to the window-shopping nature of the medium. The internet is literally the most impossible way to forge a connection with another human being.)

 

So, my own strategy for forums is humor and speed. Forums unfortunately have taken on a flavor of psychic warfare to me. I have to bring good spirit and humor to whatever I'm doing online, and I have to get in and get out fast, while my good spirit lasts. You're completely on point when you say it depletes shen, and most people on the internet are running at a deficit. TTB represents the BEST of us - try posting anything, anywhere on reddit and see how much hate you attract - and look how much animosity runs rampant here on TTB.

 

I'm thinking hard about your idea for a truly safe place. But I don't really think it exists. I think the only way to create that is to change our idea of what safe entails. I'm thinking especially about the energetic hell of my experience driving on LA freeways every day. I "create safety" by making sure I always have good music, I'm always in a good frame of mind, and I relentlessly make the decision to think, "this person who just cut me off, they're doing the best they can. I can't know what they're dealing with. I can't know what their karma is. I'm going to smile and make eye contact with them and do whatever I can to help them, this person is my teacher."

 

In other words, I'm safe because I just keep choosing to come back to that frame of mind, that I'm not being attacked by anything, I'm having my positivity and my spirit continuously reset and amplified. In truth, I think that's really the only point of being alive, is to keep doing that through everything. It's kind of a xingyi mindset and very male... no apologies... it's just the biological brain I'm working with. I hope it's helpful

Edited March 9, 2015 by dogson

[liminal_luke]

Sounds like a wonderful idea Taomeow.  Whether it can really be carried off is an open question, but I don´t think we lose anything by trying.

 

Liminal

[thelerner]

It could be jury rigged now, by creating a topic (in General area) and in the introduction telling people to hit the link to the same thread in the Personal section.  Each time someone puts a comment in the General thread put in a Please don't & redirect after it.  Maybe they'd learn .. or not. 

 

Not as clean as a real Controlled Conversation Area, but doable now. 

 

On one hand we've lost people because they've gotten angry (and abusive) when their threads were high jacked.  On the other , when its a good topic in the General area, having someone delete or even change someone else's post is treading dangerous ground, unless they're clearly aware thats the risk of answering in the CCA area. 

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

you had me at bring no discord.

 

That's the idea.  Put a wall in the way and the whole stampede will go elsewhere to trample something else.  Can't stop the stampede, but can keep it out of a stronghold maybe?  

 

How about under-ground pyramid-bunkers?   lol  they can stampede all they want

Edited March 9, 2015 by Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

when/where is our alpha-test???

[Marblehead]

when/where is our alpha-test???

Don't worry about it.  You and I have already failed the test.

[GrandmasterP]

If it aint broke...

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

that's "dont fix it" we're not talking about fixing it.

[GrandmasterP]

"Challenging it in any manner for any purposes would be forbidden."

 

Sounds 'forbidding'.

Edited March 13, 2015 by GrandmasterP

[Taomeow]

I think Thelerner offered a possible tech approach, which I however didn't understand.    I will try posting the link to this thread in the Forum and Tech Support, see what mods might say.  

[Bearded Dragon]

The information on the forum is a small part of its function. The forum itself can be used as a tool for refinement. Seeing when you want to bite, whether you do, whether you realise you're just talking crap. I think you're well aware of this. If it's no longer of use then so be it.

 

I think an opt-in would work best for what you want. Perhaps a forum post would outline a topic and people can sign up for the topic. Could be like a chat style rather than a forum style. The benefit of signups would be that you don't get people sticking their finger up as they walk past, and that people actually want to be there. The chat could be archived if the information is beneficial. I think there would already be means to do this somewhere on the internet.

 

There would be less discussion, but perhaps more deep and on topic.

[dogson]

Just as an aside, reading a lot about Huna right now and Ho'o'ponono (radical forgiveness), I practice this technique of just saying "I love you" continuously, feeling it, and taking 100% responsibility for everything that comes into my experience. It's amazing, and it also has a leveling effect, in the sense that when I'm absorbed in that consciousness and that intent, I really don't have any desire to put my opinion forth anymore. I've been thinking about that a lot - about how "I love you" neutralizes all these thoughts and opinions about things, and how perhaps the nature of ideas and developing and gathering information is by its own nature contentious. 

 

It also reminds me of the story of Miyamoto Musashi meeting Munenori while traveling. They both sensed each other's profound warrior spirit, and instead of dueling decided to simply have tea. What are we really looking for when we get on the internet?

[soaring crane]

We have a thread like that: the haiku chain :-)

 

No, srsly i don't think it's technically possible to "ban" someone from a thread or individual forum.

[soaring crane]

Perhaps you could write up the ground rules you propose, more prosaically so everyone understands them.

[Marblehead]

Perhaps you could write up the ground rules you propose, more prosaically so everyone understands them.

Ground rules for anarchy?  You gotta' be BSing me!

[GrandmasterP]

Ground rules for anarchy?  You gotta' be BSing me!

 

You'd be forbidden from posting that sort of comment MH - if these proposals are ever adopted.

There's enough rules and laws in the world as it is without someone coming up with new ones for posting on here.