Yang Family Long form - a subterfuge?

[dwai]

So, as the lore goes - Yang Lu Chan studied with the Chen family in Chen Village and then went to Beijing to teach there (his village near Beijing). He also taught his three sons. As time progressed, his elder son Yang Ban-hou became very famous and eventually draw the attention of the Ching royal family. He was asked to become the instructor for royal family and imperial guard. 

 

Since he didn't want the secrets to be taught to the manchus, he created the long form (108) and taught that. This provided health benefits but didn't teach the martial secrets.

 

Does anyone have any alternate version of the story? Or material from the Yang Family that denies this? (please provide specific material towards that end if possible).

 

Thanks in advance.

 

 

 

[JinlianPai]

Look into the 64 movement form of 

Guang Ping Yang t'ai chi ch'uan

 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guang_Ping_Yang_t%27ai_chi_ch%27uan

Guang Ping Yang Tai Chi Chuan.Yang Pan-hou was reportedly the official teacher for the Imperial court of the Manchus. The indigenous Chinese, known as the Han, had been subjugated by the Manchus and therefore Yang Pan-hou did not want to pass down the family's true art to them. Also, the Manchurians were aristocrats and were not inclined to the more strenuous exercises, so Yang Pan-Hou adapted his father’s Guang Ping form to be more subtle and taught them a very elegant, middle-to-small frame form. This is the Yang-style t'ai chi ch'uan style that has come to be known as the Beijing Yang-style. Yang Pan-hou secretly taught his father’s form (the Guang Ping style) only to select students who were not his family, who then taught it to only a few of their students and the art was subsequently lost to the Yang family.

[dwai]

Look into the 64 movement form of 

Guang Ping Yang t'ai chi ch'uan

 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guang_Ping_Yang_t%27ai_chi_ch%27uan

Perhaps more elaboration is warranted. Recently a Yang stylist vehemently opposed the idea that the Yang Family long form doesn't contain all the "Secrets" and said that the Yang Family summarily denies ever having taught the Ching family incomplete taiji.

 

My intention is not to rake up controversy but to inquire whether that might be true, because all sources I found concurred with the wikipedia article.

[JinlianPai]

Perhaps more elaboration is warranted. Recently a Yang stylist vehemently opposed the idea that the Yang Family long form doesn't contain all the "Secrets" and said that the Yang Family summarily denies ever having taught the Ching family incomplete taiji.

 

My intention is not to rake up controversy but to inquire whether that might be true, because all sources I found concurred with the wikipedia article.

 

Well of course he would deny it china is communist he doesn't want to admit that the yang family taught the imperial court an incomplete art......

 

Shoot id deny it too.

 

The kung fu dont lie if the 64 frame feels more authentic then it might be something has to be checked out.

[dawei]

In Waysun Liao's Tai Chi Classics, he relates the same basic story but does not really say "he created the long form (108) and taught that".

 

Waysun calls it the 'family style' (Yang style) vs the 'exercise style'. 

 

That Yang, "deliberately modified the Tai Chi meditation forms, converting them into a kind of slow-moving, outer exercise and complete ignoring the inner philosophy and mental discipline which is the key to Tai Chi".

[JinlianPai]

Well id be very careful with trying to get to the bottom of the issue with family inherited kung fu from an outside perspective.

 

 

http://www.dotaichi.com/articles/historyoftaichi.htm

Yang eventually returned to his hometown of Kuang Ping (also spelled Guang Ping) and taught the old-frame Chen style.  He later traveled to Beijing and became a military martial arts teacher for the Manchu government.  After he altered the sequence of the movements in his form, it later became known as the Yang style.

 

 

Yang Pan-hou is the Kuang Ping (also spelled Guang Ping) style, which Yang allegedly taught at one point in his life. It's interesting to note that there are very few similarities between the Kuang Ping style and the Wu style. The Kung Ping from is more open and linear, and it uses a more sideways-oriented stance. It also has very extended arm movements and sometimes appears to be a bridge between the Chen style and the Yang style. 

 

 

Yang Pan-hou taught the Kuang Ping form to Wong Jiao-yu. His followers claimed it was a secret of the Yang family's that was never taught to the hated Manchus. Wong supposedly taught Kuo Lien-ying, who was already a master of northern Shaolin kung fu. Kuo was also a famous master of pa-kua chang.  Kuo later shortened the form and taught his condensed version to thousands of students. When Mao Tse-tung seized power in China, Kuo fled to Taiwan and later to San Francisco's Chinatown, where he taught the art.

Edited March 11, 2015 by JinlianPai

[CloudHands]

http://www.yangfamilytaichi.com/yang/tree/

 

I believe most of the modern yang tai chi came through Yang Cheng Fu.

[thelerner]

Quote

Yang Pan-hou taught the Kuang Ping form to Wong Jiao-yu. His followers claimed it was a secret of the Yang family's that was never taught to the hated Manchus. Wong supposedly taught Kuo Lien-ying, who was already a master of northern Shaolin kung fu. Kuo was also a famous master of pa-kua chang.  Kuo later shortened the form and taught his condensed version to thousands of students. When Mao Tse-tung seized power in China, Kuo fled to Taiwan and later to San Francisco's Chinatown, where he taught the art.

 

Its amazing that people in the U.S were learning more authentic tai chi in the mid and late 1900's then was done in many parts of China itself. 

[GreytoWhite]

Having studied Chen for a little while and having had a chance to exchange with some Guang Ping Yang guys I think that Guang Ping is about as close as one can get to the large frame tradition from Chen village within the Yang purview. Here is a wonderful demonstration of Guang Ping Yang that is reminiscent of the Lao Jia Er Lu or cannon fist set.

 

 

Even the current Chen large frame that was taught to Yang is quite different than the Chen Wangting material that included five cannon fist sets, a 32 set, a 108 set, and a short strike set. From what I was told large frame was kinda like Chen Family Boxing for Dummies as it was developed by Chen Changxing for "quick" advancement of skill without as much work because a delinquent in the Chen family didn't apply himself to developing gong fu and had to go work as a guard.

 

Here is the older 108 form from before the formulation of the current large frame I wish I could easily find something on the 32, short strike, and the FIVE cannon fist sets but I haven't been involved with the Chen world in some time.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ja5xE_dwjGA

 

Here is the small frame of Chen family taiji, notice that it is quite martial. Within the Chen family it is often said that this set is older than the large frame but since this line isn't quite as well liked by the Chinese government or the wealthier large frame guys a lot of information has been held back. Another note, small frame blended with Yang's understanding is what became Wu/Hao style.

 

Nearby Zhaobao village took the same small frame that Chen Qingping taught and made this.

 

 

I agree with Sal Canzonieri on a lot of his research. Much of the Chen taiji material matches up with Tai tzu chang chuan and Shaolin Da and Xiao Hong quan in outer appearance. Some branches of tai tzu practice as slowly as taiji. Considering that Yang already had experience with Da Hong Quan I'm extremely curious about what he practiced after leaving Chen village. The world may never know but I feel as if Guang Ping Yang is probably the closest to Lu Chan's taiji and find the rest of Yang style rather boring.

[LAOLONG]

Silk reeling is the original tai chi, before it had the name taichi. Even chen masters don't do it properly. It is the root for endless movement variations, and for qi and shen.

[Michael Sternbach]

The Yang Cheng Fu form is watered down as far as martial applications. Yes, it is the basis for most modern Yang style Taiji. However, the Yang Lu Chan form (mostly practiced in Taiwan nowadays) is quite martial, with a number of fa-jing strikes. The other elements of the Old Yang style are quite martial as well, at least in my teacher's tradition.

[CloudHands]

edit

Edited May 6, 2016 by CloudHands

[LAOLONG]

According to tradition zang sun feng made 13 movement

Pattern ( not postures as was translated from chinese to english)

[thelerner]

In about half (maybe a quarter) of his movies, you see Jet Li (who I believe is Chinese MA champion) do forms that combine slow and fast, smooth and jagged, always dynamic.

 

I've wondered if some of these forms were show pieces of authentic old style forms?

 

Sorry if I'm getting off track.

[GreytoWhite]

According to tradition zang sun feng made 13 movement

Pattern ( not postures as was translated from chinese to english)

 

That's like saying Merlin is the father of Western sword fighting. Sure, a mythical wizard is the source.

[dwai]

As a corollary of the OP, is the practice of the Long form really the essence of Taiji Quan practice? 

 

I've posted the way we practice in Temple Style here -- http://thedaobums.com/topic/38760-morning-taijiquan-practice-video/ and here -- http://thedaobums.com/topic/38671-my-taiji-workout-video/

 

 

We practice individual forms repeatedly and also have fajin (aka fajing) practice that can be applied to all the individual forms. This is apparently how traditionally how it was practiced in Daoist temples (from Chang San Feng's times...)

 

I've had people vehemently argue with me about this...claiming the long form is the way to go. Most people can't imagine how single form practice looks, hence the videos...

[GreytoWhite]

Repeated long form instruction method is a money making tactic so instructors can continue to "teach" people when their students don't really have skill. Some do gain skill from correct and oft-repeated form practice but it's the long way round. Stance training with loading, single movement, silk reeling, and partner work are far more important than form.

[CloudHands]

edit : ahahaaaah

Edited April 5, 2016 by CloudHands

[Michael Sternbach]

Oh well that's why katas are teach to experienced karatekas. I can barely believe that thread.

 

Yang style is not an elite martial art system : maybe...

 

What it does is emphasize meditation and health aspects. I'm not sure chen provide the same benefits may be at very high level.

 

These are fights

 

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Tai Chi fights are very uncommon for what I know. It's the only thing I need to know.

That's because Taiji, at least in the Old Yang style, typically goes for the eyes, the neck etc.

 

Yes, practicing it does have health benefits, but moreover, it's still a self defence art, it hasn't been watered down to an (unhealthy) sport. In a real fight, it can be as devastating as Kenpo Karate.

 

What you are showing are sport events. Rough as they are, there are rules that totally dictate the dynamics of what is happening.

Edited July 18, 2015 by Michael Sternbach

[GreytoWhite]

CloudHands I agree that many who practice taiji are more interested in cosplay and meditation than martial art. Chen certainly does provide the same benefits, one does not fajin as in many form demos until a bit later on in the training. Believe me, 20 minutes of drawing the same circle in the air with your hand gets to be quite meditative after a while and silk reeling of any flavor is good for the health. 

 

That said, I came to the neijia arts with a decent amount of external experience and enough street fights and school fights to know what will be effective. There is a certain skill that a fighter can gain from neijia arts that makes him truly scary, even without eye gouges and throat strikes. I encountered a kid who does some MMA here a while back and he asked me to show him some applications from bagua. He was pretty good at getting out of the shuai stuff I wanted to show him but I decided not to get into striking with the throws striking a as that could end up badly. He then offered to show me what he had learned. I gave him an arm and told him to go ahead. Kid couldn't pull anything off. He gave up and got upset saying, "I can't pull off anything because you keep MOVING WITH IT!" Hahaha. Really though, the scary stuff to most people are the strike that feel like they got hit three times.

[windwalker]

One of the persistent myths in Taiji is that when Yang Luchan went to Beijing, he made the training easier by taking out all the hard stumping and jumps from the form to make it easier for the nobles.  There has been two reasons supplied for his doing so:

 

1) the form would otherwise be too difficult for the nobles,

 

2) he didn’t want to teach the real art to the Manchurians who invaded and took control of China in 1644. 

 

If we just take a step back and take a look at everything else we know to be true about the martial art scene in Beijing at the time, we can easily conclude this not to be true.

 

To start, both of these reasons implies the true essence of Taiji lies within powerful stumps and high jumps.  But those are not what make basic Taijiquan skills work, or makes it different from other martial art right?  If we want spectacular high jumps and kicks, none can surpass those in modern Wushu.  Are those Wushu’s athletes’ competition more authentic than even the classical forms then?  As for powerful Fajin in strikes, out of the Big Six martial arts of the north,  Tongbei and Baji are the ones most famous for that. 

 

In terms of stumping, Baji and  Xingyi emphasize those in their training more than other arts. 

 

The essence of Taiji is using subtle circular forces to change the direction of the opponent, taking him off his center before he is aware.   https://wordpress.com/read/post/feed/18085440/870501790

A good read that gives many logical reasons for why what is suggested was not possible at the time.

Edited January 4, 2016 by morninglight

[9th]

People get scared of many things because they have been domesticated.  They are no longer feral.  If you encounter someone who was raised by wolves in a forest, its going to take every bit of training you've got to keep them from biting a chunk out of your face or ripping your testicles off.  It wont be a "street fight", it will be an attempt to fend off a predatory animal. 

 

And yet there are still far too many "bad asses" out there.  But there is a quick and easy solution.  You see, violence is being perfected in so many ways each and every day.  Lately, its all about technology.

 

[Brian]

So, as the lore goes - Yang Lu Chan studied with the Chen family in Chen Village and then went to Beijing to teach there (his village near Beijing). He also taught his three sons. As time progressed, his elder son Yang Ban-hou became very famous and eventually draw the attention of the Ching royal family. He was asked to become the instructor for royal family and imperial guard.

 

Since he didn't want the secrets to be taught to the manchus, he created the long form (108) and taught that. This provided health benefits but didn't teach the martial secrets.

 

Does anyone have any alternate version of the story? Or material from the Yang Family that denies this? (please provide specific material towards that end if possible).

 

Thanks in advance.

Look into Guang Ping Yang...

 

[GreytoWhite]

How did this revive without a recent reply?

 

Anyway, glad it came up. Scott Park Phillips' book Possible Origins is pretty amazing. Here is my review of the book. Also a YouTube video below.

 

 

 

 

I've been studying the internal martial arts of taijiquan, baguazhang, and xingyiquan for almost a decade. In that time I've had the privilege of learning from and touching hands with some incredibly talented people. Over the years I've read books that seem too "just so" trying to wrap everything around an author's erroneous assumption and then two years later some new information is translated or a family member refutes something and the whole line of dominoes falls over. Phillips doesn't assert that he's right but rather provides a perspective from an embodied and diverse practice and how some of these things may be linked together. The enduring attachment to Zhang Sanfeng's creation of taijiquan and its place in wider culture was certainly a novel approach. As a former enthusiast for Chen taijiquan, Scott's YouTube video referenced in the book was enlightening to me - some of the mime and possible theatrical influences were easily seen in his performance. I was hoping for some more information on the choreography surrounding Nezha as this just leads me to ponder more. An engaging read for the experienced kung fu practitioner and very well crafted at that.

Edited December 22, 2016 by GreytoWhite