Tarot as a System of Metaphysical Philosophy

[Michael Sternbach]

Dawei, thank you so much for starting the "Tarot Bums" on my request. I am confident that having a sub-forum wholly dedicated to Tarot will be welcomed by all the TDB members who have been talking about Tarot previously on a number of scattered threads,

 

A few words for kindling the conversation...

 

Many associate Tarot exclusively with "fortune telling." That's its most popular function, and indeed, it can be used for divination with amazing results, much like the I Ching. In this context, I personally don't see Tarot's value most opf all in predicting future events. It is a matter open to philosophical debate to what extent the future is fixed, and therefore can really be foretold.

 

However, I - like most people who experienced this first hand - don't doubt Tarot's usefulness for uncovering and understanding what is happening in current (or even past) situations, on levels of both outer and inner reality. Thus, it can be used for reading what is happening in somebody's conscious and unconscious mind. Its symbolism is the language of the psyche. That's why C.G. Jung thought of Tarot as a complete system of Archetypes.

 

On these grounds, Tarot offers solutions for all kinds of difficulties in life. Therein lies its great potential not least as a means of psychotherapy and spiritual growth. I was using it to that end in my work with psychiatric patients and self help groups in the 1990s.

 

Again much like the I Ching, Tarot is considerably more than just a divimatory tool, however. It is a holistic system of metaphysical philosophy. A picture book of wisdom whose symbols come down to us from time immemorial. Virtually a Theory of Everything. Wow.

 

While Tarot stands on its own, it ties in with other metaphysical systems such as Astrology, the Kabbalah, and Hermetic Philosophy. Many contemporary academics deny such connections, insisting that Tarot started its career as a simple pack of playing cards, despite its obvious roots in both Christian and Pagan spirituality. Some scholars - admittedly rather few in number so far - also highlight the parallels between traditional Tarot iconography and Alchemical illustrations.

 

http://tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=223881

 

http://images.brera.beniculturali.it//f/Documenti/so/solabusca_english2

 

Yet another application of the Tarot is as a tool of Magic (or Magick, if you prefer). In a sense  supplementing its use for divination - which could be defined as passive or receptive - by employing the same imagery for actively effecting change in the psyche as well as in external reality.

 

Needless to mention, a lot more can be said on all the aforementioned and other aspects, but I hope this will suffice to inspire some of you to share your own views.

 

Best regards,

Michael

[Mandrake]

Michael:

 

 

Regarding this:

"On these grounds, Tarot offers solutions for all kinds of difficulties in life. Therein lies its great potential not least as a means of psychotherapy and spiritual growth. I was using it to that end in my work with psychiatric patients and self help groups in the 1990s."

 

Would you like to expand on this, especially the latter part?

I am intrigued by how you took the step to use it clinically. How did this work as a tool for you patients, and for what kinds did you find it especially powerful?

 

 

With gratitude,

Mandrake

[Zhongyongdaoist]

Dawei, thank you so much for starting the "Tarot Bums" on my request. I am confident that having a sub-forum wholly dedicated to Tarot will be welcomed by all the TDB members who have been talking about Tarot previously on a number of scattered threads,

 

So you're the miscreant to whom we owe this future source of contention and strife, eh.  Well, OK, there certainly have been some interesting and heated threads here and not all of them have tarot in the title.  Maybe some of them can be moved here.

 

Thanks for bringing the Sola Busca Tarot to the table, I have been intending to do it for some time as it is important aspect of the creative process behind the Waite deck, but you can't mention the Waite deck here without seeming to wave a red flag in front of a Thelemic bull who will come charging out come up with any ad hoc criticism of the Waite deck that occurs to him at the time and praising the Crowley deck with wild abandon.

 

Aside from that, it is not clear how much the Tarot can be considered a Metaphysical System in itself, in spite of its being almost a Memory Palace of traditional symbolism.  Whatever principles it may have originally been founded on it is not clear if they were "systematic" enough to be a System of Metaphysics, though I often thought that this book:

 

The Tarot Trumps: Cosmos in Miniature

 

was one of the most convincing attempts at recovering a system from a historical perspective, at least for the Trumps.

 

I have on the other hand thought of the Tarot as an "emergent" system, one that brings together a lot of disparate elements and unifies them on a higher level of integration.  In this regard it is interesting to note that the Tarot appears in the late Fifteenth Century and reaches a high level of integration at the end of the Nineteenth, which could be correlated with the extremely important cycle of Pluto/Neptune conjunctions in Gemini, starting in 1400 and connecting with the Renaissance and reaching its second conjunction circa 1890, with the inception of the Golden Dawn and its very real systemization of the Tarot.

[dawei]

there certainly have been some interesting and heated threads here and not all of them have tarot in the title.  Maybe some of them can be moved here.

 

If it had Tarot in the title, I've moved it.  Others can be sent to staff in PM (or just report the first post with a note to move it).

[Zhongyongdaoist]

If it had Tarot in the title, I've moved it.  Others can be sent to staff in PM (or just report the first post with a note to move it).

 

Certainly a good beginning.  Thanks.

[Michael Sternbach]

Michael:

 

 

Regarding this:

"On these grounds, Tarot offers solutions for all kinds of difficulties in life. Therein lies its great potential not least as a means of psychotherapy and spiritual growth. I was using it to that end in my work with psychiatric patients and self help groups in the 1990s."

 

Would you like to expand on this, especially the latter part?

I am intrigued by how you took the step to use it clinically. How did this work as a tool for you patients, and for what kinds did you find it especially powerful?

 

 

With gratitude,

Mandrake

 

Hi Mandrake,

 

This was possible due to my association with a psychiatrist who was open-minded in regard of alternative therapies. As a certified Bach Flower therapist, I used Dr. Bach's remedies as my principal approach - they lend themselves to the treatment of almost any kind of patient. As I had also been studying and practicing Tarot for awhile, I integrated it into my sessions. Gradually, I added Astrology and visualization exercises.

 

I suggested to my patients to do Tarot sessions only after I had known them for awhile and felt that they were receptive to the idea. I wouldn't suggest Tarot in certain cases of superstitious fear when it conceivably  could have aggravated the condition. But this needs to be decided based on the individual case; no hard and fast rules there. Typical queries revolved around self-awareness and relationships, where I found Tarot to be a very powerful tool for insight and transformation. Its pictorial language directly speaks to deeper levels of the psyche.

 

I appreciate your interest. Feel free to ask if you have more questions. I might even start a thread on the topic.

Edited March 15, 2015 by Michael Sternbach

[Michael Sternbach]

So you're the miscreant to whom we owe this future source of contention and strife, eh.  Well, OK, there certainly have been some interesting and heated threads here and not all of them have tarot in the title.  Maybe some of them can be moved here.

 

Thanks for bringing the Sola Busca Tarot to the table,

 

The Sola Busca deck is truly fascinating, isn't it? As a predecessor of the Rider-Waite Tarot as well as in its own right.

 

I have been intending to do it for some time as it is important aspect of the creative process behind the Waite deck, but you can't mention the Waite deck here without seeming to wave a red flag in front of a Thelemic bull who will come charging out come up with any ad hoc criticism of the Waite deck that occurs to him at the time and praising the Crowley deck with wild abandon.

 

Hmm... And others feel easily provoked by the mention of Crowley.

 

Nothing wrong with relevant on-topic debates (that at least third party readers can profit from) of course, but I suppose that I can trust all my friends here not to sabotage my little Tarot project by marring the threads with rants and mockery? It would be such a pit-y...

 

Aside from that, it is not clear how much the Tarot can be considered a Metaphysical System in itself, in spite of its being almost a Memory Palace of traditional symbolism.  Whatever principles it may have originally been founded on it is not clear if they were "systematic" enough to be a System of Metaphysics, though I often thought that this book:

 

The Tarot Trumps: Cosmos in Miniature

 

was one of the most convincing attempts at recovering a system from a historical perspective, at least for the Trumps.

 

Thanks, that sounds like an interesting title to add to my library.

 

I have on the other hand thought of the Tarot as an "emergent" system, one that brings together a lot of disparate elements and unifies them on a higher level of integration.  In this regard it is interesting to note that the Tarot appears in the late Fifteenth Century and reaches a high level of integration at the end of the Nineteenth, which could be correlated with the extremely important cycle of Pluto/Neptune conjunctions in Gemini, starting in 1400 and connecting with the Renaissance and reaching its second conjunction circa 1890, with the inception of the Golden Dawn and its very real systemization of the Tarot.

 

That's a good astrological observation. Also other metaphysical systems such as Astrology and Alchemy were synthesized from quite distant strands perfectly combining over long periods. While I don't agree with the pure "playing cards as origin" theory, I too think of Tarot as another system gradually emerging due to a Final Cause.

[Nungali]

I have been using tarot for years now as a system of 'metaphysical philosophy' ... and also 'action'  ... putting that philosophy into action. 

 

I dont use it to 'predict the future' ... I am able to do that without the cards better than I can with them  

 

I do have criticisms about tarot ... mostly due to pop usage  and marketing ... and I am one of those who criticise the RW deck.

 

Also I use a Thoth deck  but I am not a 'bull thelemite'   . I would like to think I can reasonably criticise the  RW or Thoth deck and discuss it reasonably here without tit for tat and other issues intruding.

 

One reason for my likes and dislikes is I find (for a vast majority) the scenic images on the RW minors direct one to a narrow and mundane interpretation.  Personally I find the more abstract minors leave a wider range of interpretation open.

 

 

Plus some other inferences that some 'professionals' have tried to attach to the RW deck  (like some sort of secret Masonic story hidden within the symbolism of the minors  -   which no one who claims that, seems to be able to demonstrate reasonably.  Even with the Majors { excepting the one card of the High Priestess } ) 

 

But something interests me more at the moment ...  the associations of the minors with the astrological decans  -   I should start a new thread on that . 

[Michael Sternbach]

Edited March 16, 2015 by Michael Sternbach

[Michael Sternbach]

I have been using tarot for years now as a system of 'metaphysical philosophy' ... and also 'action' ... putting that philosophy into action.

Practically applied philosophy then. Very nice.

 

I dont use it to 'predict the future' ... I am able to do that without the cards better than I can with them

A view shared by many contemporary Tarot readers regarding predictions is that only probabilities can be seen, not certainties.

 

"Difficult to see. Always in motion is the future." Yoda

 

I do have criticisms about tarot ... mostly due to pop usage and marketing ... and I am one of those who criticise the RW deck.

 

Also I use a Thoth deck but I am not a 'bull thelemite' . I would like to think I can reasonably criticise the RW or Thoth deck and discuss it reasonably here without tit for tat and other issues intruding.

I am also primarily a "Thothie" although I am familiar with the RW too, and use it for particular purposes (among others).

 

One reason for my likes and dislikes is I find (for a vast majority) the scenic images on the RW minors direct one to a narrow and mundane interpretation. Personally I find the more abstract minors leave a wider range of interpretation open.

 

 

Plus some other inferences that some 'professionals' have tried to attach to the RW deck (like some sort of secret Masonic story hidden within the symbolism of the minors - which no one who claims that, seems to be able to demonstrate reasonably. Even with the Majors { excepting the one card of the High Priestess } )

Good questions, however, as this thread is about Tarot in general and not about the peculiarities of particular decks, it would be best if you would open up a new thread if you want to go into this.

 

But something interests me more at the moment ...

<Phew!>

 

the associations of the minors with the astrological decans - I should start a new thread on that .

Yes, absolutely.

Edited March 16, 2015 by Michael Sternbach

[Mandrake]

Hi Mandrake,

 

This was possible due to my association with a psychiatrist who was open-minded in regard of alternative therapies. As a certified Bach Flower therapist, I used Dr. Bach's remedies as my principal approach - they lend themselves to the treatment of almost any kind of patient. As I had also been studying and practicing Tarot for awhile, I integrated it into my sessions. Gradually, I added Astrology and visualization exercises.

 

I suggested to my patients to do Tarot sessions only after I had known them for awhile and felt that they were receptive to the idea. I wouldn't suggest Tarot in certain cases of superstitious fear when it conceivably  could have aggravated the condition. But this needs to be decided based on the individual case; no hard and fast rules there. Typical queries revolved around self-awareness and relationships, where I found Tarot to be a very powerful tool for insight and transformation. Its pictorial language directly speaks to deeper levels of the psyche.

 

I appreciate your interest. Feel free to ask if you have more questions. I might even start a thread on the topic.

 

Ok. I ask One question, and end up with loads : D

 

How did you use it in practice? I.e. dealing cards, layout etc.

 

Is there a wrong way of using it? There is a point where people can become obsessed and use it for everything, often.

 

What did the tarot do that for example therapy couldn't (in the same degree)?

 

 

This is fun, thanks!

Mandrake

[Michael Sternbach]

Mandrake,

 

I opened a new thread on questions pertaining to the therapeutic use of Tarot.

 

http://thedaobums.com/topic/37882-tarot-therapy/

Edited March 17, 2015 by Michael Sternbach

[FraterUFA]

Edit: some of the quotes are misattributed below (some aren't made by Michael). That is the fault of multiquote. I'll try to fix that in the next day or two.

 

Well, well. A topic right up my alley. Thanks, Michael (and others, I presume), for setting this in motion. :-)

 

However, I - like most people who experienced this first hand - don't doubt Tarot's usefulness for uncovering and understanding what is happening in current (or even past) situations, on levels of both outer and inner reality. Thus, it can be used for reading what is happening in somebody's conscious and unconscious mind. Its symbolism is the language of the psyche. That's why C.G. Jung thought of Tarot as a complete system of Archetypes.

 

On these grounds, Tarot offers solutions for all kinds of difficulties in life. Therein lies its great potential not least as a means of psychotherapy and spiritual growth. I was using it to that end in my work with psychiatric patients and self help groups in the 1990s.

 

23 years of Tarot study has taught me that there are indeed many uses for Tarot (not that I personally agree with all of them but that is beside the point). Taken at face value, it seems absurd that a mere collection of symbols could possibly have such varied powers that have been ascribed to them. Yet, I do believe that to be the case.

 

It is interesting to consider how this might be. I largely agree with what Michael wrote above. My current belief is that the Tarot is a collective expression of the Lingua Verdi. With its aid, the untrained mind has a means - though imperfect - of viewing a reflection of the Unconscious mind. Such a mechanism explains the various uses (divination, therapeutic, mystical, magical, etc) without exception, as far as I can tell. 

 

 

Again much like the I Ching, Tarot is considerably more than just a divimatory tool, however. It is a holistic system of metaphysical philosophy. A picture book of wisdom whose symbols come down to us from time immemorial. Virtually a Theory of Everything. Wow.

 

Well, that's taking it a bit too far. Does Tarot offer a theory of calculus? Rocket science? Politics? No, not unless you stretch it beyond recognition.

 

But... while I am not qualified to enter into discussions of various decks or their histories, I can state with certainty that the RW/PFC versions do illustrate a coherent and expansive view of Hermetic Philosophy, one that I continue to marvel at two decades after I first began my studies. Through Waite, the deck was advanced greatly and through Case, perfected even further. I am eager to see how it will end up centuries from now.

 

While Tarot stands on its own, it ties in with other metaphysical systems such as Astrology, the Kabbalah, and Hermetic Philosophy.

 

You don't say. Isn't that interesting.

 

Many contemporary academics deny such connections,

 

You don't say. Hard to believe.

 

insisting that Tarot started its career as a simple pack of playing cards, despite its obvious roots in both Christian and Pagan spirituality. Some scholars - admittedly rather few in number so far - also highlight the parallels between traditional Tarot iconography and Alchemical illustrations.

 

Hmmm... A connection between Tarot and alchemy? You don't say. :-)

 

Aside from that, it is not clear how much the Tarot can be considered a Metaphysical System in itself, in spite of its being almost a Memory Palace of traditional symbolism.  

 

Interesting statement. It's not clear to who? To those who don't hold the viewpoint that Tarot encapsulates a metaphysical system? Would those individuals not be versed in the metaphysical system that the Tarot embodies by any chance? If there was a hidden group of individuals who held the keys to Tarot, how would those on the outside know, other than through speculation and suggestive but inconclusive hints?

 

It is beyond question to this individual the Tarot encapsulates not merely a metaphysical system, but a very powerful practical system that has been transmitted from teacher to pupil and closely guarded for many centuries and which dates much earlier than the earliest Tarot decks. A system that results in an outcome known as "enlightenment" or "illumination". That this is not agreed to universally (or probably even by very many) by occultists and academics has no bearing on the truth of the matter.

 

(For clarity, I refer to the RW/PFC decks. I do not believe that all versions of the Tarot hold equal weight and in fact view most as derivative and largely useless, though I do find many of them to be quite beautiful).

 

 

I have on the other hand thought of the Tarot as an "emergent" system, one that brings together a lot of disparate elements and unifies them on a higher level of integration.  In this regard it is interesting to note that the Tarot appears in the late Fifteenth Century and reaches a high level of integration at the end of the Nineteenth, which could be correlated with the extremely important cycle of Pluto/Neptune conjunctions in Gemini, starting in 1400 and connecting with the Renaissance and reaching its second conjunction circa 1890, with the inception of the Golden Dawn and its very real systemization of the Tarot.

 

That strikes me as a very good explanation. Interesting astrological angle as well.

 

Practically applied philosophy then. Very nice.

 

I would argue that the practical application of Tarot is it's least useful and most unreliable. I haven't met a divination expert yet who has won the lottery. Yet ironically, one who employs the Tarot as a spiritual tool may easily acquire wealth.

 

A view shared by many contemporary Tarot readers regarding predictions is that only probabilities can be seen, not certainties.

 

Probabilities are a crutch for the lower mind. They are not reality but rather a clumsy construct to model what it cannot ordinarily know.

 

UFA

Edited March 18, 2015 by FraterUFA

[mYTHmAKER]

The Sola Busca Tarot is a bit pricey.

Does anyone know where to purchase at a reasonable price.

mYTHISmAKER would love to have one

http://starkarma9.com/index.html

[Michael Sternbach]

Edit: some of the quotes are misattributed below (some aren't made by Michael). That is the fault of multiquote. I'll try to fix that in the next day or two.

 

Well, I will comment on your comments nevertheless.

 

Well, well. A topic right up my alley. Thanks, Michael (and others, I presume), for setting this in motion. :-)

 

You mean, you have cards up your sleeve? Glad you like it, UFO.

 

23 years of Tarot study has taught me that there are indeed many uses for Tarot (not that I personally agree with all of them but that is beside the point). Taken at face value, it seems absurd that a mere collection of symbols could possibly have such varied powers that have been ascribed to them. Yet, I do believe that to be the case.

 

Not only you.

 

It is interesting to consider how this might be. I largely agree with what Michael wrote above. My current belief is that the Tarot is a collective expression of the Lingua Verdi. With its aid, the untrained mind has a means - though imperfect - of viewing a reflection of the Unconscious mind. Such a mechanism explains the various uses (divination, therapeutic, mystical, magical, etc) without exception, as far as I can tell. 

 

That sounds interesting. According to C. G. Jung, Tarot (especially the Major Arcana) represents the Archetypes.

 

However, beyond just being an image of the (collective) unconscious, I would say that Tarot is a variation of the Theatrum mundi or Theatre of the World cherished by the Renaissance philosophers (you might call it Memory Palace, ZYD). Thus it is relevant to all levels of existence - both internal and external. These are always analogous to each other, anyway.

 

Well, that's taking it a bit too far. Does Tarot offer a theory of calculus? Rocket science? Politics? No, not unless you stretch it beyond recognition.

 

Eliphas Levy wrote that a prisoner, if he had only a Tarot deck available and knew how to use it, could derive all the knowledge of the world within a number of years, and talk about it eloquently with experts. That may be a slight exaggeration - but Tarot as a universal system of Archetypes in fact relates to all kinds of things as all things are based on those Archetypes. You don't need to stretch it, you only need to see the analogies.

 

Rocket science? Let me think... Rocket propulsion is based on Newton's Law of Action and Reaction, isn't it? Which you could easily relate to Trumps I and II.

 

But the analogies go further... The escape velocity for a rocket in order to fly away from the Moon is 2,38 km/sec. 2 happens to be the number of the High Priestess which is most commonly attributed to the Moon. 3 + 8 = 11 = 1 + 1 = 2 again.

 

 

Let's take off from Earth now; for that, we need a higher escape velocity of 11,2 km/sec. That's again 11 = 1 + 1 = 2, plus 2 behind the comma. Well, no wonder, the Moon and the Earth reflect or are inverse to each other, they are a Yin/Yang pair. Trump 11 in the traditional decks shows a person overcoming a lion; personally, I have no problem seeing in this a metaphor for a vehicle overcoming Earth's gravity field.

 

Calculus? Yeah, it's in there too, but too complex a theme to go into here. Some other time, perhaps...

 

Politics? Inherent to Tarot! Just look at The Empress, The Emperor, all the Court Cards... I am sure you could read nicely on political developments with Tarot, if you were thus inclined.

 

But... while I am not qualified to enter into discussions of various decks or their histories, I can state with certainty that the RW/PFC versions do illustrate a coherent and expansive view of Hermetic Philosophy, one that I continue to marvel at two decades after I first began my studies. Through Waite, the deck was advanced greatly and through Case, perfected even further.

 

Oh, that has the potential for controversy on this thread...

 

I am eager to see how it will end up centuries from now.

 

Yet another reason to attain immortality.

 

Interesting statement. It's not clear to who? To those who don't hold the viewpoint that Tarot encapsulates a metaphysical system? Would those individuals not be versed in the metaphysical system that the Tarot embodies by any chance? If there was a hidden group of individuals who held the keys to Tarot, how would those on the outside know, other than through speculation and suggestive but inconclusive hints?

 

 

It is beyond question to this individual the Tarot encapsulates not merely a metaphysical system, but a very powerful practical system that has been transmitted from teacher to pupil and closely guarded for many centuries and which dates much earlier than the earliest Tarot decks. A system that results in an outcome known as "enlightenment" or "illumination". That this is not agreed to universally (or probably even by very many) by occultists and academics has no bearing on the truth of the matter.

 

I mostly agree with you on this. Tarot is replete with esoteric symbolism right from the start.

 

Whether the system as a whole was transmitted for many centuries "from teacher to pupil" as you say is doubtful, though. One reason being that quite some variation exists among the earliest extant decks regarding both the number and the order of the cards. It took awhile until the now common system established itself more or less firmly.

 

I agree with Zhongyongdaoist that metaphysical systems are not necessarily inherited from time immemorial in fully fleshed out form, but gradually develop, accomodating to a pattern that is acting as a Final Cause over prolonged periods of time. ZYD's observation regarding the cycle of Neptune/Pluto conjunctions in Gemini is interesting here.

 

(For clarity, I refer to the RW/PFC decks. I do not believe that all versions of the Tarot hold equal weight and in fact view most as derivative and largely useless, though I do find many of them to be quite beautiful).

 

In a sense, Tarot as such is an abstraction. As a system of Archetypes, it is an Archetype itself; thus (according to Jung's definition), it has no recognizable form. Yet it can be expressed in many forms. There is some validity to all its many different expressions therefore, even the "derived" ones (for all we know, all the decks we have are derived). But I agree with you that some are far more encompassing in their symbolism than others. Now, which of the many decks are the most apt, that is a matter of hot argumentation but even more, I would say, of personal preference.

 

I would argue that the practical application of Tarot is it's least useful and most unreliable. I haven't met a divination expert yet who has won the lottery. Yet ironically, one who employs the Tarot as a spiritual tool may easily acquire wealth.

 

Some truth to that, to be sure, especially as far as predictions. But I know Nungali well enough to say that he was not simply referring to divination - let alone to foretelling lotto numbers.

 

Probabilities are a crutch for the lower mind. They are not reality but rather a clumsy construct to model what it cannot ordinarily know.

 

The probability theories of modern physics in fact leave a lot of questions unanswered from a Metaphysical perspective.

[Michael Sternbach]

The Sola Busca Tarot is a bit pricey.

Does anyone know where to purchase at a reasonable price.

mYTHISmAKER would love to have one

http://starkarma9.com/index.html

Giordano Berti in Italy still has some copies of the Mayer edition from 1998 (the only one containing all 78 cards, not only the majors) and offers them along with a book he has written at a very fair price.

 

https://solabuscatarot1998mayer.wordpress.com/

Edited March 18, 2015 by Michael Sternbach

[Nungali]

How come, in this forum, new posts dont bump the thread to the top of the forum index? 

[FraterUFA]

Ave,

 

Eliphas Levy wrote that a prisoner, if he had only a Tarot deck available and knew how to use it, could derive all the knowledge of the world within a number of years, and talk about it eloquently with experts. That may be a slight exaggeration - but Tarot as a universal system of Archetypes in fact relates to all kinds of things as all things are based on those Archetypes. You don't need to stretch it, you only need to see the analogies.

 

 

The deck wouldn't be the source of that knowledge. Not through divination, nor meditation.

 

Rocket science? Let me think... Rocket propulsion is based on Newton's Law of Action and Reaction, isn't it? Which you could easily relate to Trumps I and II.

 

But the analogies go further... The escape velocity for a rocket in order to fly away from the Moon is 2,38 km/sec. 2 happens to be the number of the High Priestess which is most commonly attributed to the Moon. 3 + 8 = 11 = 1 + 1 = 2 again.

 

That is precisely what I mean by stretching the Tarot beyond recognition. People say the same thing about the Bible code and Nostradamus. Intellectual masturbation has limited value beyond entertainment.

 

 

Whether the system as a whole was transmitted for many centuries "from teacher to pupil" as you say is doubtful, though. One reason being that quite some variation exists among the earliest extant decks regarding both the number and the order of the cards. It took awhile until the now common system established itself more or less firmly.

 

I did not say that Tarot was a system transmitted for centuries from teacher to pupil. I stated that it hints at such a system. The system predates Tarot... and that is the key which explains Levi's quote.

 

I agree with Zhongyongdaoist that metaphysical systems are not necessarily inherited from time immemorial in fully fleshed out form, but gradually develop, accomodating to a pattern that is acting as a Final Cause over prolonged periods of time. ZYD's observation regarding the cycle of Neptune/Pluto conjunctions in Gemini is interesting here.

 

That's true in the sense of a metaphysical system as an amalgam of symbolism, philosophy, cosmology and magical working (perhaps among other things).

 

I am referring to something different however. That is, that Tarot is in sense an instruction book, which largely describes a craft practiced by craftsmen. Its practitioners and their tools do indeed change over time but the heart of their craft and their aim is the same. Tarot is pointing to the existence of these craftsmen, their plans, their tools, their methods and the aim of their work. For me, this is where the value of Tarot lies.

 

The probability theories of modern physics in fact leave a lot of questions unanswered from a Metaphysical perspective.

 

I doubt probabilities would have satisfied Levi :-)

 

UFA
 

[Nungali]

... Tarot is in sense an instruction book, which largely describes a craft practiced by craftsmen. Its practitioners and their tools do indeed change over time but the heart of their craft and their aim is the same. Tarot is pointing to the existence of these craftsmen, their plans, their tools, their methods and the aim of their work. ...

 

 

 

That  I can agree with   ( other than the 'secret Masonic symbolism' idea . ) !  

[Nungali]

Thanks !  (you are a TDBs engineer ?  I had not noticed that )

[FraterUFA]

 

That  I can agree with   ( other than the 'secret Masonic symbolism' idea . ) !  

 

I never said anything about Masons.

 

UFA

[Nungali]

I know.  Thats why I agree with you.  I can see what you outlined, but not what someone else was trying to prove about masonic symbolism.   It was someone else that was claiming that specifically, and I refuted it. Then they couldnt deliver the goods and got uppity with me  (not here on TDB ,  but I think I mentioned it here in a tarot thread )  some one who was claiming that, who is a 'world expert' on tarot, has 'followers' and numerous books published, paid workshops - all that stuff). 

Edited March 23, 2015 by Nungali

[Mandrake]

 I haven't met a divination expert yet who has won the lottery. Yet ironically, one who employs the Tarot as a spiritual tool may easily acquire wealth.

 

UFA

 

Frater UFA:

 

 

Would you care to expand? Becoming wealthy isn't easy. What in employing Tarot changes the situation?

 

 

All my best,

Mandrake

[Nungali]

Look at the words ;

 

wealth :  " Wealth is the abundance of valuable resources . "      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wealth.

 

Now, lets look at Michael  Carroll :

 

" A former binman and Ulster Defence Association supporter, Carroll won £9,736,131 (then US$15.4m) on the National Lottery in November 2002, aged 19. 

 

... Carroll stated he would not be tempted into spending his money lavishly and only wanted to buy a 3-bedroom house near a lake, where he could go fishing

 

... In 2004, he was banned from driving for six months after being caught at the wheel of his new £49,000 BMW without L-plates and insurance.^[3]

 

In 2005, Carroll participated in a celebrity boxing match in which he seemed to be defeated by Mark Smith, formerly a star of TV showGladiators under the name Rhino, but the fight was officially declared a draw by the judges. Also in 2006, he was the subject of the documentary Michael Carroll: King of Chavs.

 

In June 2005, Carroll was given an ASBO by the court after finding that while drunk he had been catapulting steel balls from hisMercedes van, which resulted in breaking 32 car and shop windows, in Downham Market, where he was living. He was sentenced with 240 hours of community service and a warning he could face jail time if he did not adhere to the ASBO.^[4]

In February 2006, he was jailed for nine months for affray. It was noted in court while being sentenced, that since 1997, Carroll had 42 previous offences on record.^[5] In August 2006, Carroll denied rumours that he had no money left.^[6]

 

While living at his mansion, five of his Rottweilers were found dead with their throats cut. He paid the £130,000 to blackmailers who threatened his family. He said the men came with shotguns and said "You aren't so big now are you, Mr. Carroll?". He took off in his car and he never went back to Swaffham, he claimed. He ended up returning to Downham Market.^[1]

 

In May 2010 he applied for his old job as a binman, "       http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Carroll_%28lottery_winner%29

 

 

Here is one of the houses he had ... and some of his toys scattered around  .... the 'sand box' and some diggers and tip trucks to play with too .... vrooom vrooom!  

 

 

[FraterUFA]

Interesting narrative, Nungali.

 

My story is a bit different. In my younger years, I was (like many) a person who eschewed money and assumed that the quest for spiritual truth was mutually exclusive with more mundane pursuits. But as the years progressed, I learned to use Tarot as a psychological mirror and it taught me a number of things. One of those things was financial responsibility. Money is a powerful force which can have good and bad outcomes (such as the one Nungali described). But it is neutral of itself. So how could one seriously seek out more powerful forces if they can't demonstrate a mastery of such a basic one as that?

 

Another was that before the serious pursuit of esotericism can commence, one must seek to satisfy one's worldly desires. I had not the slightest inkling in those early days of how deeply buried the need for financial security was in my psyche. Tarot and astrology helped me to identify that urge and later, taught me what I needed to do to satisfy it.

 

So as a direct result, I became wealthy. Not only in the sense that I live far below my means, but also in the sense that my means are far above the average. 

 

UFA