Criminals in Taoism that became saints/immortals/enlightened

[grabmywrist4]

In Buddhism there is Angulimala, a serial killer who killed 999 people and wore their fingers around his neck in a garland. After meeting the Buddha he threw away his weapons, took up meditation, and became an Arahant. There is also Milarepa, a sorcerer that summoned a hail storm killing 35 people. He sought out a guru and strived in meditation for 12 years until becoming a fully enlightened Buddha. Are there any characters like this in Taoism?

[Marblehead]

 Are there any characters like this in Taoism?

I'm sure you could find some in Religious Taoism.

[Michael Sternbach]

In Chuang Tzu's book, there is robber Chi. He seems to be quite popular on TDB.

Edited March 15, 2015 by Michael Sternbach

[Marblehead]

In Chuang Tzu's book, there is robber Chi.

I thought about that but he was never raised to "saint" status even though nice things were said about his personal values.

[grabmywrist4]

Yeah I'm talking about seriously bad dudes that completely renounce evil and start diligently practicing under a teacher until attaining the highest goal of Taoism. 

[Marblehead]

Yeah I'm talking about seriously bad dudes that completely renounce evil and start diligently practicing under a teacher until attaining the highest goal of Taoism. 

Well, Robber Chi was not one of those.  He died a bad guy.

[C T]

Not sure if Zhang Liang was a criminal, but he sure had some notorious streak in him. Its believed he eventually became an immortal serving as one of Laozi's assistant in heaven. 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhang_Liang_%28Western_Han%29

[Taomeow]

Well, Monkey, for sure.  Though come to think of it, he started out as an immortal, but a bad one, and then transformed into a worse one...  and then taught the rest of the immortals to put up with him. 

[C T]

Well, Monkey, for sure.  Though come to think of it, he started out as an immortal, but a bad one, and then transformed into a worse one...  and then taught the rest of the immortals to put up with him. 

Monkey crossed my mind, and i was actually going to post it up, but then i thought, hey, Monkey's a mythical figure, so i gave up. 

[Marblehead]

I wouldn't consider Zhang Liang a criminal.  Based ont eh article he acted pretty much like most generals or ministers of the day.

[C T]

I wouldn't consider Zhang Liang a criminal.  Based ont eh article he acted pretty much like most generals or ministers of the day.

So much wheelin' and dealin' happened back then - corruption was rife, not to mention conspiracies, rebellions, etc - a most colourful era in China's history. Not all the players got to become immortals though, save a handful, & Zhang Liang was one of them. Im sure with a bit of digging around a few more names will surface. 

[the1gza]

Monkey crossed my mind, and i was actually going to post it up, but then i thought, hey, Monkey's a mythical figure, so i gave up. 

Aren't all these guys technically myth by that standard? And which Monkey immortal is this is reference to? 

[C T]

Aren't all these guys technically myth by that standard? And which Monkey immortal is this is reference to? 

Zhang Liang's not a mythical figure, as per the wiki article. 

 

Monkey aka Sun Wukong http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_Wukong

[Taomeow]

Still, I'm not aware of a taoist non-mythical hardcore criminal who repented and became saintly and became an immortal.  Petty theft -- well, Lady Chang-o stole the pill of immortality from her husband, but he was a cruel tyrant abusing his people, and compassion, trying to prevent his taking the pill and perpetuating his atrocities into all eternity, was at least half of her motivation.  She became the goddess of the moon.  Then again, the rebellion of the Duke of Zhou against the Shang king, who fed King Wen his other son while keeping him in prison?  "Did you kill  a king?"  they asked the Duke and his followers in horror, and the response was, "We executed a tyrant."  Meaning, the mandate of heaven was revoked once the king became a tyrant, and it wasn't criminal to kill him, nor immoral -- it was moral and just. 

Edited March 16, 2015 by Taomeow

[Daeluin]

Water Margin might be considered to touch upon this in some ways.

 

 

Based on the Taoist concept that each person's destiny is tied to a Star of Destiny (Chinese: 宿星; pinyin: sù xīng), the 108 Stars of Destiny represent 108 demonic overlords who were banished by Shangdi, a supreme god in Chinese folk religion. Having repented since their banishment, the stars are released from imprisonment by accident, and are reborn in the world as 108 heroes who band together for the cause of justice.

 

 

I haven't had time to read it yet, but the outline seems to revolve around how these once banished demons return to the world and are considered outlaws to begin with, but over time are pardoned and employed by the empire for good.

 

In that sense perhaps this is a lesson for us in modern times in equality. We have our many demons and like to separate ourselves from them the way we do our landfills and wars and other enforced inequalities that end up manifesting as cancers inside of ourselves. Perhaps this is a lesson in allowing the demons to return to the fold rather than influencing from the stars, so that we can weather through the period of re-integration and have our power whole again when we need it most.

Edited March 16, 2015 by Daeluin

[the1gza]

I'm not saying that Zhang Liang was not real, but rather that his immortality is a "mythical" story. So I'm not simply referring to whether or not Zhang Liang was a real person per se, but as to whether Zhang Liang as an immortal is considered more concrete than a chracter like Sun Wukong. I figured that Sun WUkong was the figure being referred to, but if I'm not mistaken, he was given Buddhahood for his services in protection of that monk.

[Marblehead]

... and have our power whole again when we need it most.

What beautiful idealism!

[C T]

I'm not saying that Zhang Liang was not real, but rather that his immortality is a "mythical" story. So I'm not simply referring to whether or not Zhang Liang was a real person per se, but as to whether Zhang Liang as an immortal.

Afraid his status as an immortal cannot be ascertained fully, but at least he existed at some point, which does give the account some weight and lends a bit of substance to the OP. Im sure there is a Taoist lineage somewhere that recognises (or had recognised) his saintly status. In fact, a passage in the book Love & Immortality in China endorsed his immortalship (sp), claiming that his internal cultivation enabled him to predict events with uncanny accuracy (besides other transcendental skills he had acquired). 

[Wells]

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Edited May 10, 2016 by Wells

[子泰]

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Edited March 17, 2015 by 子泰

[shanlung]

Liu Changsheng, 1147-1203, came readily to my mind.

 

Liu ChangSheng used a brothel to enter the higher realms of Taoism and becoming an Immortal.

If that was not bad enough, he financed his stay in the brothel by picking up stones and turning them into gold.

 

It was on record that he could titillate and  delight 6-7 ladies at the same time in the brothel and well liked there at least for the gold that he spend.

 

A real through and through crook and criminal, so do not listen to your mom.

Crime does pay, or at least finance a good stay in a brothel.

 

Idiot who want to be a partner in crime and brothel works

[the1gza]

Liu Changsheng, 1147-1203, came readily to my mind.

 

Liu ChangSheng used a brothel to enter the higher realms of Taoism and becoming an Immortal.

If that was not bad enough, he financed his stay in the brothel by picking up stones and turning them into gold.

 

It was on record that he could titillate and  delight 6-7 ladies at the same time in the brothel and well liked there at least for the gold that he spend.

 

A real through and through crook and criminal, so do not listen to your mom.

Crime does pay, or at least finance a good stay in a brothel.

 

Idiot who want to be a partner in crime and brothel works

Criminal? Shiiiiiii, sounds like a hero to me!!!

[shanlung]

Criminal? Shiiiiiii, sounds like a hero to me!!!

 

Master Liu can also brew a very good cup of tea.

Not by using electric kettle which did not exist in his time at any rate.

He did not even use charcoal stove to heat the kettle of water.

All he needed to do was to place the kettle on his dantien for the water in kettle to bubble and boil.

 

Delighting no less than Bodhidarmo who dropped by to see him in that brothel.

The saga did not record if Bodhidarmo enjoyed the girls there of if the girls enjoyed Bodhi or not.

 

Exciting parts always missing.

 

Idiotic Taoist

[Taomeow]

TM, can you link to a story? Would be interested to read.

 

 

On another note, methinks that any pill of immortality that can be stolen is not one worth seeking.

 

It's from one of the books in my collection on the subject of the I Ching, don't remember which.  I'll try to look online, see if I can find it.

 

As for the pill not worth seeking -- that was the era of external alchemy, and the pill was produced by its methods.  I am not opposed to these methods, in fact I believe the slant toward "all things spiritual are better than all things material" is not indigenous to taoism at all.  Taoists pioneered both external and internal alchemy.  It so happened that external was up our Western alley so it got picked up, appropriated, and eventually turned into "better life through chemistry" (shudder).  But put to good use, external alchemy is in no way inferior.  Unfortunately, taoists did indeed have to experiment on death row convicts on emperors' orders (and poisoned quite a few while at it), emperors were of course the number one customers for the pill, they financed the research and thus unwittingly helped many taoist inventions materialize (gunpowder was created in the course of the search for that pill, ironically enough, and I have my suspicions about ice cream too. )  But there's no way to tell if the pill was ever actually made -- for if it was, I'm pretty sure the inventor would do as Lady Chang-O did, instead of giving it to a professional tyrant by job description.  This doesn't mean it's not worth seeking, only that it's even harder to find than the internal one.   

Edited March 22, 2015 by Taomeow

[Marblehead]

It's from one of the books in my collection on the subject of the I Ching, don't remember which.  I'll try to look online, see if I can find it.

I have one of those books.  I had to put it down.  Just couldn't handle it.