Criminals in Taoism that became saints/immortals/enlightened

[wandelaar]

There must be a story somewhere in the Chuang tzu of a guy whose toes were chopped off for some crime but nevertheless became a master with a large following.

 

Edited November 30, 2018 by wandelaar

[wandelaar]

3 hours ago, wandelaar said:

There must be a story somewhere in the Chuang tzu of a guy whose toes were chopped off for some crime but nevertheless became a master with a large following.

 

https://books.google.nl/books?id=gedEDwAAQBAJ&pg=PA47&dq=Shu+Shan+the+Toeless&hl=nl&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjBxd76nP3eAhVBKuwKHa2xAj0Q6wEIKzAA#v=onepage&q=Shu Shan the Toeless&f=false

 

Don't know where I got the large following from...

[Gerard]

My personal opinion on this topic:

 

1. Ungrounded fairy tales

2. Myths, legends created to enhance a particular religious sect/branch.

 

Humans create religions and legends.

 

Why?

 

It's impossible to attain such state in one lifetime especially if someone is a criminal (infant or baby soul). They need to slowly evolve over many lifetimes until they remove all the 'poisons' from their Hearts/Minds.

 

 

Edited December 2, 2018 by Gerard

[Spotless]

On 12/1/2018 at 9:16 PM, Gerard said:

It's impossible to attain such state in one lifetime especially if someone is a criminal (infant or baby soul). They need to slowly evolve over many lifetimes until they remove all the 'poisons' from their Hearts/Minds.

Simply not the case.

The machinations within can come to the fruition of a considerably bent human being - and when Awakening occurs is not very much dependent upon purity as it is upon a critical mass of release.

From this a previously “experienced and imperfect” Presence can in many cases understand how much more “work” is to be done. While a relatively simple life may bring forth a wonderful teacher in Awakening but see no reason for ardent work.

 

Awakening can be mistaken for Enlightenment - Enlightening aspects proceed in Abiding Awakening but does not necessarily progress to what Enlightenment more closely resembles.

 

The conceptual - long slow engineered progress is conceptual only - it appears to work for those that need it but it is the longer path generally speaking. 

 

Generally it is more of a shit or get off the pot situation - life is generally raw and then the grasping ceases in Awakening and from there

veryfine changes take place over many years - in seemingly endlesss massive unfolding.

 

Awakening - and with it the secession of suffering can definitely take place in someone pretty far from perfect to any great degree.

 

To a very great extent - all it takes is release from grasping - most thieves and most apple polishers are just as asleep and automated as anyone.

 

Edited December 4, 2018 by Spotless

[Spotless]

The personhood that ceases upon Awakening may have been a thief - upon Awakening the thief is no more though some propensities may still exist unattached.

 

The assessment that nearly anyone can Awaken does not mean a vile decrepit low spirit has any likelihood of Awakening let alone Enlightenment - one that is thoroughly lost in attachment, fear and depravity is likely fairly immovable.

 

But in many many scenarios such as that of the famous Milrepa of Tibet and others - thieves and those involved in treachery and even mass murder come in many varieties - many are princes and kings and queens. Some “born” to fight.

 

Most religious dogma would say the unethical will not enter the gates of heaven - of course many of those saying that are as perverse as anyone they would have barred.

Edited December 7, 2018 by Spotless
Misspellings

[freeform]

Yeah this is a paradox that I just couldn’t get my head round for many years. But so many advanced teachers talked about the fact that actual spirituality (as in cultivating Shen or spirit) is completely independent from morality or even from just basic human decency - that I realised it must be an important thing to really understand.

 

It had me wondering how this could be so. I’m still not 100% sure about this... I think there’s such a distinct separation between your primordial Self and your  manifest self that by the mechanisms of internal training you can leave the manifest self completely unrefined, but still manage to cultivate your primordial spirit and attain many of the later stage attainments. 

 

Many schools, however, place great importance on refining your manifest self. The De (virtues) are the fruits of a fully ‘transformed’ manifest (post heaven) self. This is the attainment of ‘sagehood’. Lao Tzu being such a sage. 

 

Personally I think there needs to be cultivation of both virtue and spirit.

[wandelaar]

3 minutes ago, freeform said:

Many schools, however, place great importance on refining your manifest self. The De (virtues) are the fruits of a fully ‘transformed’ manifest (post heaven) self. This is the attainment of ‘sagehood’. Lao Tzu being such a sage. 

 

It would reflect badly on the schools themselves when its top students would lack common decency. So it's understandable that the schools place great importance on refining your manifest self.

 

3 minutes ago, freeform said:

Personally I think there needs to be cultivation of both virtue and spirit.

 

Just as it is in one's interest to care for one's bodily health it's also in one's interest to live in peace with the society one lives in. And as regards the latter cultivating and practising common decency is the easiest way to do so.

[OldDog]

22 hours ago, freeform said:

... morality or even from just basic human decency ...

 

I struggle with this issue also ... how to reconcile.

 

It is easy to see morality ... human decency ... as a social idea. How can we all get along and be mutually supportive collectively without some sort of judgement system that guides our interaction. So, we conform ourselves to laws, whether they be religious or secular, for the sake of social stability. Harmony?

 

But what about morality as an individual issue? What is it that guides our personal behavior aside from societal morality and laws? There are places in the daoist texts that suggest that an enlightened or realized one settles into a natural state harmony where behavior is governed by being at one with the unity of all existence. Such a state is said to be without without judgement. 

 

Where does social morality and individual attainment meet?

 

It would seem that the texts ... daoist and otherwise ... are replete with examples of those who live outside of the guidelines imposed by social morality experiencing a change and conforming. Are they enlightened, attained? Are they repentant and saved? Are they worthy of forgiveness? In what sense should they be held accountable for past transgressions of social morality? Where does such a change in behaviour become just a means avoiding consequence?

 

I have not been able to answer these questions completely for myself.

 

 

[wandelaar]

There also exists a very basic form of morality in the animal kingdom among social animals. And this is to be expected as a community of animals that are in a constant state of war with each other is not very likely to survive. On the other hand "crime" pays for those individual animals that are smart and/or strong enough to avoid playing their part, while profiting from the work of others and escaping punishment for doing so. So there are two contradictory forms of natural selection at work at the same time. And that is why we have "good" and "bad" both in the animal kingdom and in human societies. These tendencies have become instinctual.

 

Thus - in my opinion - it is possible to recognize the nature of reality while choosing the way of evil. Of course one takes the risk of being punished by society for doing so, but somebody who is willing to take that risk cannot possibly be convinced of making a mistake by doing so.

 

The Way of Lao tzu for instance is explicitly based on avoiding unnecessary risks by following the basic customs of society (while living in society) and the laws of nature. Lau tzu doesn't prove that way to be the correct one, but his choice rather defines his form of Taoism.

 

Edited December 17, 2018 by wandelaar

[Stosh]

Ditto, we are presented with An answer, and we are given a rationale for it. But it is not the only answer. Billions live out their lives contrary to the themes of Lao or Chuang or Ghandi or Buddha or any selected individual. 

You lay your bets and roll the dice... 

[Spotless]

On 12/16/2018 at 9:18 AM, freeform said:

Many schools, however, place great importance on refining your manifest self. The De (virtues) are the fruits of a fully ‘transformed’ manifest (post heaven) self. This is the attainment of ‘sagehood’. Lao Tzu being such a sage. 

 

Personally I think there needs to be cultivation of both virtue and spirit.

There is no question that refinement is a requirement in the general sense. It is equally true that the pedestals of behavior we often put on relatively absurd levels come to us from religious dogma, translators and teachers attempting to clearly and radically state that - Waking Up will be the suicide of your personhood - that it is both easy and like putting a camel through the eye of a needle.

 

We often end up thinking that you need to be pure as the driven snow in order to Awaken - this is not the case. Somehow you need to pull off the trance of personhood - and many of the perfect perfection purification pedestals simply make kicking the can down the road even easier.

 

Often being a wretched human can bring about utter distain for ones own folly and the destruction of that story - that group of frequencies can be relinquished and both Awakening and the hard work of refining can move forward.

 

When one uses the words wretched it is not necessary to immediately put that one a pedestal and make it mean the most vile creature in a bottomless pit of evil - for one thing - such a person is rare and lowly and very stuck.  But many a wretched human being can be found among everyone you know - nearly everyone is a roving House Of Judgment ready to nit pic every grain of sand.

 

Is your general disposition one with a ready genuine smile or a sour reserve?