No Religion

[Gerard]

Here's one excellent Dharma Talk everyone should read:

 

Link.

 

There are only universal truths (including those discovered and realised by Taoists sages for thousands of years), the rest is only parts of the elephant people like to associate themselves with.

 

Samsara = yin, yang, five elements, suffering, impermanence, karma, rebirth

Nirvana = end of suffering, no more duality, end of impermanence and rebirth.

 

 

 

[Anderson]

Here's one excellent Dharma Talk everyone should read:

 

Link.

 

There are only universal truths (including those discovered and realised by Taoists sages for thousands of years), the rest is only parts of the elephant people like to associate themselves with.

 

Samsara = yin, yang, five elements, suffering, impermanence, karma, rebirth

Nirvana = end of suffering, no more duality, end of impermanence and rebirth.

 

The true path is the path that leads beyond both samsara and nirvana.

[soaring crane]

That talk seems pretty religious to me.

[Tibetan_Ice]

The true path is the path that leads beyond both samsara and nirvana.

So are you saying that Theravada Buddhism is not the "true path"?

[Anderson]

So are you saying that Theravada Buddhism is not the "true path"?

 

Supreme Budhahood can't be achieved via theravada budhism even after 3 immeasurable eons.

This is another way of saying that this path has no effective means to engender total realization since their methods are based on time and effort and no matter how much they try they can never achieve total realization inside time.

[Seeker of Wisdom]

If you aren't at least as realised as an arhat, you are not above a path that produces arhats.

[Cheshire Cat]

Beyond words and definitions, in my opinion is good to examine approaches.

Only then, you may know what is what.

 

 

Edited March 18, 2015 by Cheshire Cat

[C T]

precisely! 

[gatito]

The true path is the path that leads beyond both samsara and nirvana.

 

In fact, the true path is the one that integrates smasara and nirvana in unity (i.e. nonduality - which is called advaita in sanskrit).

 

[Anderson]

In fact, the true path is the one that integrates smasara and nirvana in unity (i.e. nonduality - which is called advaita in sanskrit).

 

 

This statement implies  that samsara and nirvana are present in a state prior to integration  either mixed up or as separate conditions.The only thing prior to integration that we have is ignorance.

Edited March 18, 2015 by Anderson

[gatito]

This statement implies  that samsara and nirvana are present in a state prior to integration  either mixed up or as separate conditions.The only thing prior to integration that we have is ignorance.

 

That's quite good but it would be better to say that: -

 

Samsara and Nirvana are believed to be present prior to integration.

[C T]

That's quite good but it would be better to say that: -

 

Samsara and Nirvana are believed to be present prior to integration.

Good point! Belief often spawns dualistic perceptions. 

[gatito]

Good point! Belief often spawns dualistic perceptions. 

 

Also quite good but it would be more accurate to say that beliefs always spawn dualistic perceptions and dualistic perceptions always spawn beliefs - classic dependent origination.

 

That's one way of explaining how jñāna yoga works.

[Anderson]

That's quite good but it would be better to say that: -

 

Samsara and Nirvana are believed to be present prior to integration.

 

Yes. That.

[C T]

Also quite good but it would be more accurate to say that beliefs always spawn dualistic perceptions and dualistic perceptions always spawn beliefs - classic dependent origination.

 

That's one way of explaining how jñāna yoga works.

 Yeah, ok, if thats the way you want to put it. Kinda redundant though for a Buddhist practitioner. 

[Cheshire Cat]

In fact, the true path is the one that integrates smasara and nirvana in unity (i.e. nonduality - which is called advaita in sanskrit).

 

 

In my opinion, since the concepts of Samsara and Nirvana don't arise by themselves in the human mind, (but one need to learn about them through the medium of the Dharma) and- in addition- to experience Nirvana one must be enlightened,

they are just conceptual means.

 

What Anderson really meant -imho- is that the true path can go far beyond a couple of concepts,

but what you are stating here is that the true path is the one that teaches two concepts (samsara and nirvana) and then build a logic to merge two concepts into a third one.

And all this talking is based on the assumption that non-dual is superior because it sounds good or because it's written somewhere in the upanishads.

 

But if I suggest that samsara is equal to duality and nirvana is equal to non-duality, how would you call the path that integrates duality and non-duality ?

Edited March 19, 2015 by Cheshire Cat

[9th]

Homage to Great Bliss!

Mahamudra is knowing that
all things are one's own mind.
Seeing objects as external is just noetic projection.
The whole of "appearance" is as empty as a dream.

The mind as such is merely a flow of awareness,
without self-nature, moving where it will like the wind.
Empty of an identity, it is like space.
All phenomena, like space, are the same.

That which is termed Mahamudra,
Is not a "thing" that can be pointed to.
It is the mind's own nature
that is Mahamudra

It is not something to be perfected or transformed.
Thus, to realize this, is to realize
that the whole world of appearance is Mahamudra.
This is the absolute all-inclusive Dharmakaya 

Uncontrived and just as it is,
the inconceivable Dharmakaya,
is itself effortless meditation.
Trying to attain something is not meditation.

Seeing everything like space, like a magical illusion,
Neither meditating nor not meditating,
Neither separate nor not separate:
Such is the Yogin's realization.

All virtuous and evil actions
Become liberated through this knowledge.
The sinful defilements become the Absolute Gnosis itself;
becoming the Yogin's friend, this is a fire consuming the forest of trees.

Where then is going or staying?
Who then needs to run to a Monastery to meditate?
If one does not understand this point,
liberation will be but a temporary event.

When the true nature is realized,
one abides in the unwavering state.
Whether or not one is in the state of Integration or not,
There is nothing to be corrected by antidote or meditation.

Whatever arises is devoid of self-nature.
Appearances are auto-liberated into the Sphere of Reality (Dharmadhatu).
Conceptual creation is auto-liberated into Absolute Gnosis (Mahajnana).
The non-duality of these two is the Dharmakaya.

Like the flow of a great river,
Whatever occurs is meaningful and true.
This is the eternal Buddha state,
The Great Bliss, transcending the Worldly Cycle.

All phenomena are empty of self-identity,
Wherein even the concept of emptiness is eliminated.
Free of concepts, clinging not to mental projections,
is the Path of all the Enlightened Ones.

For those fortunate to connect with this teaching,
I have uttered these words of heartfelt instruction.
Thus, may all sentient beings
become established in Mahamudra.

 

- Maitripa

[gatito]

In my opinion, since the concepts of Samsara and Nirvana don't arise by themselves in the human mind, (but one need to learn about them through the medium of the Dharma) and- in addition- to experience Nirvana one must be enlightened,

they are just conceptual means.

 

What Anderson really meant -imho- is that the true path can go far beyond a couple of concepts,

but what you are stating here is that the true path is the one that teaches two concepts (samsara and nirvana) and then build a logic to merge two concepts into a third one.

And all this talking is based on the assumption that non-dual is superior because it sounds good or because it's written somewhere in the upanishads.

 

But if I suggest that samsara is equal to duality and nirvana is equal to non-duality, how would you call the path that integrates duality and non-duality ?

 

Wow!!

 

That's a spectacular own goal - both by you and by @soaring crane who "liked" it.

 

[Cheshire Cat]

 

Wow!!

 

That's a spectacular own goal - both by you and by @soaring crane who "liked" it.

 

 

I think that your logic and sharpness are a bit lacking my friend.

[gatito]

I think that your logic and sharpness are a bit lacking my friend.

 

In that case I'm in good company (i.e. Nagarjuna ).

Edited July 21, 2015 by gatito

[Cheshire Cat]

 

In that case I'm in good company (i.e. Nagarjuna ): -

 

 

When logic can't be defeated, the vedantins always try to rely on a quote or two 

In my opinion, Nagarjuna's fallacy is that he treats Nirvana as a concept of the same category of Samsara, thus assuming that Nirvana means "end of samsara" and nothing else. He creates in his logic a link of causality "samsara -> nirvana" and then demonstrates that the third concept "emptiness" is superior because it has no-causality.

 

If one believes that Nirvana stands beyond samsara, he can't say that Nirvana exists because of samsara no more than the sky exists because of the earth.

 

But I'm not a buddhist, so you should find a more appropriate phrase. 

Edited March 20, 2015 by Cheshire Cat

[Anderson]

But I'm not a buddhist, 

 

 

Yes, you are not a buddhist

 

You are this: Yoga, Tantra, Meditation,Kabbalah, Sufism, Gnosis, Comparative Religion/Tradition, Health, Psychology, Psychotherapy, Neuroscience, Energy Work, Neidan, Neigong, Kung Fu, Honey, Tribal warfare, Spirits, Shamanism, Beer + orange juice, Sex

[Cheshire Cat]

Yes, you are not a buddhist

 

You are this: Yoga, Tantra, Meditation,Kabbalah, Sufism, Gnosis, Comparative Religion/Tradition, Health, Psychology, Psychotherapy, Neuroscience, Energy Work, Neidan, Neigong, Kung Fu, Honey, Tribal warfare, Spirits, Shamanism, Beer + orange juice, Sex

 

I don't feel much identified with the things I take as interests.

When I'm sleeping, I forget all of them for good: does this mean that when I'm sleeping I cease to exist?

[Anderson]

I don't feel much identified with the things I take as interests.

When I'm sleeping, I forget all of them for good: does this mean that when I'm sleeping I cease to exist?

you ask the wrong question

[allinone]

Yes, you are not a buddhist

 

You are this: Yoga, Tantra, Meditation,Kabbalah, Sufism, Gnosis, Comparative Religion/Tradition, Health, Psychology, Psychotherapy, Neuroscience, Energy Work, Neidan, Neigong, Kung Fu, Honey, Tribal warfare, Spirits, Shamanism, Beer + orange juice, Sex

 

but after destination is reached it nullifies it all. No matter how much striving or cost or what path.

 

 fruition, cessation, nirvana, change of lineage etc. Then there comes compassionate moment and you will fall back, or your mind turns around.

Edited March 20, 2015 by allinone