Being a Parent to Other Adults

[Nikolai1]

Hi all,

 

In another post freeform said something about the Dark Night of the Soul that got me thinking:

 

And it's a feeling of profound loneliness - and an inability to connect to mundane existence... to have small-talk with your neighbour... to congratulate your colleague on his new car... 

 

I'm sure lots of us can connect with this feeling, like you can no longer see the meaning or pleasure in something like a new car.  You once did, you remember how it feels, but its beyond you now and therefore the colleague seems to you someone alien who you can no longer connect with.

 

But then it occurred to me:

 

I have three young children so as you can imagine Christmas is a pretty exciting time.  But for some reason, I don't feel alienated from my children just because they are besides themselves with excitement over their new Lego set.  What happens is that I simply remember being a child myself, and experience the pleasure vicariously.  I let their pleasure become my own pleasure, even though I couldn't care less about any new Lego set for myself. 

 

So why don't I do the same with my colleague and his new car?  Why do I let myself feel alienated from him, and from a whole lot of other people who are living life looking for the same pleasures?

 

Is the solution to alienation, simply accepting that you have outgrown what other people have not yet outgrown.  And when we truly accept this, might we start to take pleasure in their naive ways as we do children?

 

I'm sure lots of you feel very uncomfortable at this, because I know I do.  There is something very anxiety provoking about placing ourselves senior to pretty much the whole of humanity.

 

It smacks of spiritual pride doesn't it? Adopting the rather patronising position: "I remember when I too used to enjoy such trifles.  Your innocence fills my heart with joy!"

 

So I think alienation is borne of fear of being who you actually already are.  It is the fear of separating yourself from your former peers, of going alone.  It is the lack of confidence in yourself, and therefore alienation is paradoxically, the excessive attachment to who you once were and all the people who were like you.

 

The alienation is not from others, as you imagine, it is alienation from your self.

 

[the1gza]

It's really a personal thing. I have always been cool with my own thoughts and my own personal being, so when I hear about others with "Dark Nights of the Soul" or alienation, it's not something that really strikes me because I have always been somewhat bizarre to the status quo. I think your last comment hits is; a lot of people are brought up with a dependence on others. Be it the dependence on others to validate our thoughts and ideals, on others for enjoyment, on others for love... I think I would've committed suicide if I had to rely on that to live hahaha. I guess I would have to thank being born into the family I was born into, but even they look at me bizarre when I say things like, "I don't feel like I need to have a wife or a sexual relationship with a woman to enjoy life." Everyone looks at me like I'm sick, but frankly I feel that relationships require a whole lot more maturity than people have when they enter them, and then they invite children into the world without even caring about those ramifications. I've already had my share of impulse decisions, so if I can't find my way into a relationship that I feel is healthy... oh well. I been with enough girls; I can easily be totally fine without that.

 

Then again, if I could, I'd probably live in a cave and just do my thing like butt-naked my name was "Sasquatch: The 2^nd Coming"^TM. Honestly, that's a bit far from being a reality at the moment but I mean... it's not that big of a deal when stuff comes that way. That feeling usually destroys development, that inability to reconcile that you are, in fact, a new person and that you might just be growing up. You don't feel weird when you outgrow playing with toys, action figures, chillin' at the mall with your pals, and all the other things you outgrow as you grow up. This is just another type of growing; it's just a growing that most people don't decide to embark on.

[Nikolai1]

This is just another type of growing; it's just a growing that most people don't decide to embark on.

 

Yes, and that's the problem.  Because they haven't decided to do it themselves, they don't recognise the seniority that you see in yourself.  So, this inner seniority has to be lived alongside the outer juniority that comes when your car is inevitable old, and your phone outmoded. because you see no point in owning the expensive best.

 

We are forced to have the graciousness to love others as our children, while they see nothing in us beyond our old clothes and humble job.

 

This balancing act is a hard test!  At least when we are simply alienated we can agree with all around us that we are nobodies.  There's none of this terrible dissonance!

 

The only possible analogue to this in the worldly world is when circumstances place us into seniority.  Before we were just one of the guys on the shop floor, but then the team manager post got offered to me not them, and things will never be the same again. I can never go back to who I was.  I'll never be just one of the gang again.  Also, I remember reading about Tony Blair's angst when he realised that HE was Prime Minister and no-one else, and the no-one else has to send troops to war, only him.  Sure, there is angst in this, but when your seniority is recognised by everyone around it is easier to adopt the role.  Before long you believe in it yourself.

 

The seniority that comes with spiritual growth is known to no-one but yourself, and that makes it harder to realise.  The saints all say that eventually God steps in to take over, and then your maturity comes easily.  This I suppose is Wu Wei.

Edited March 21, 2015 by Nikolai1

[C T]

'God' steps in, usually at the lowest point, and brings relief to what is known as poverty of spirit. It seems to me that there is a marked difference between poverty of spirit and a soul's dark night. The former is a more advanced stage in spiritual contraction. And both conditions happen (from a Mahayana perspective) when spiritual aspirants held back, either consciously or unconsciously, from finding balance in the accumulative and combined merit of cultivating wisdom and compassion, giving equal priority to both.

 

A number of posters who have shared here in the past about their spiritual dilemma have demonstrated profound, coherent insights into their experience - this shows a certain level of wisdom, which is very positive, but despite that, they expressed a sense of dissatisfaction - its as if there is an inner gnawing which cannot be specifically located and therefore unaddressable, but tangibly felt all the same. In Buddhist terms, this is sometimes likened to getting lost in the absolute. Its quite common, especially when there is an absence or lack of compassionate activity, which is something arising from conduct grounded in the relative. Wisdom (knowledge of self or transcendent knowledge) can sometimes be less than beneficial, and it becomes so when not balanced with altruistic action. Its easy to get lost in the maze of too much insight. And between the two, it is said that the latter view, one of compassionate motivation, is more conducive for beginning the Buddhist path as this will eventually lead to realising wisdom anyhow, whereas its more difficult when approached the other way round, ie, using wisdom as the preliminary platform for cultivation. 

 

So even for those who do not have the affinity to gain deep insights into existential truths and metaphysical frameworks, they can still gain emancipation simply by practicing kindness and other altruistic deeds. It has been noted that for every 20 monks who enter monastic life in the Himalayas, only one make it into the inner circle of tantric practice. The rest who do not make the cut are taught wisdom conceptually, and compassion proactively.

 

A notable supporter of Altruism is the Ven Matthieu Ricard. He said, "The most direct route to happiness is in service to others". Also, "Authentic happiness is a way of being, and a skill to be cultivated." Happiness is a skill, and one of the most direct way of honing this skill is through proactive, positive engagement in other beings' lives. Ven Ricard is on FB if anyone is interested to find out more about his work. His posts and photographs can be quite enlightening. 

 

 

"Though you experience transcendence,
And cultivate the spirit of enlightenment,
Without wisdom from realizing voidness
You cannot cut off the root of cyclic life --
So you should strive to realize relativity."

~ Tsongkhapa (1357-1419), from "The Three Principles of the Path"

 

 

 

Just something to think about... 

 

Edited March 21, 2015 by C T

[Nikolai1]

Hi CT,

 

 

Wisdom (knowledge of self or transcendent knowledge) can sometimes be less than beneficial, and it becomes so when not balanced with altruistic action. Its easy to get lost in the maze of too much insight.

 

In the Dark Night thread. Yasjua said this:

 

I guess it was a gradual revival of my worldly sensibilities. I stopped caring about enlightenment, started living a more practical, settled, grounded life, and my interest for everything came back and manifested tenfold in intensity. Now I think everything is awesome. In the "Dark Night" I couldn't get into music, relationships, work, purpose, meaning, or anything else. It was just heal, heal, heal, seek, seek, seek, meditate, meditate, meditate, repeat. I'm pretty sure it's a temporary form of dissociative psychosis.

 

I thought this was really interesting, that the growth came when he returned to everyday matters.  But I wonder if this applies to me because I've always been very much in the 'thick of life' - Either working, or being at home with the babies. or a bit of both, and now three young children - up at 6 collapse by 10 in the evening.  I know many people do have busier lives than me, but I'm not exactly sitting on a mountain top either.

 

But that said:

 

And between the two, it is said that the latter view, one of compassionate motivation, is more conducive for beginning the Buddhist path as this will eventually lead to realising wisdom anyhow, whereas its more difficult when approached the other way round, ie, using wisdom as the preliminary platform for cultivation. 

 

I can't say that loving kindness to all humanity is my way at all.  Pursuit of wisdom has definitely been my preliminary platform.  and yes you are right, it has led me to a place where I cannot at all conceive where to go next because all the usual paths through life in this world don't interest me, or more like, I have intellectually 'seen through' them all.

 

'God' steps in, usually at the lowest point, and brings relief to what is known as poverty of spirit. It seems to me that there is a marked difference between poverty of spirit and a soul's dark night. The former is a more advanced stage in spiritual contraction.

 

Could you say more about this poverty of spirit?

 

Thnaks

[9th]

A number of posters who have shared here in the past about their spiritual dilemma have demonstrated profound, coherent insights into their experience - this shows a certain level of wisdom, which is very positive, but despite that, they expressed a sense of dissatisfaction - its as if there is an inner gnawing which cannot be specifically located and therefore unaddressable, but tangibly felt all the same. In Buddhist terms, this is sometimes likened to getting lost in the absolute.

 

Huh? It sounds like you are missing the point about dissatisfaction, disinterest and dispassion.  You might need a refresher on Buddhism 101:

97

The man

faithless / beyond conviction 

ungrateful / knowing the Unmade 

a burglar / who has severed connections, who's destroyed his chances and conditions

who eats vomit / has disgorged expectations:

the ultimate person.

98

In village or wilds, valley, plateau:

that place is delightful where arahants dwell.

99

Delightful wilds where the crowds don't delight,

those free from passion delight,

for they're not searching for sensual pleasures.

 

 

 

- Arahantavagga

 

 

But even beyond this, the amount of discourse on "dispassion" and so on within the Pali Canon is extreme.  Have you forgotten the story of the Buddha's journey itself?  Dissatisfaction was the singular reason he began looking for answers.

[C T]

 

Huh? It sounds like you are missing the point about dissatisfaction, disinterest and dispassion.  You might *need a refresher on Buddhism 101:

97

The man

faithless / beyond conviction 

ungrateful / knowing the Unmade 

a burglar / who has severed connections, who's destroyed his chances and conditions

who eats vomit / has disgorged expectations:

the ultimate person.

98

In village or wilds, valley, plateau:

that place is delightful where arahants dwell.

99

Delightful wilds where the crowds don't delight,

those free from passion delight,

for they're not searching for sensual pleasures.

 

 

 

- Arahantavagga

 

 

But even beyond this, the amount of discourse on "dispassion" and so on within the Pali Canon is extreme.  Have you forgotten the story of the Buddha's journey itself?  Dissatisfaction was the singular reason he began looking for answers.

Huh back at you. I think you missed the context in which the term 'dissatisfaction' was used above. If you hadn't fixated singularly at that one word, you would have understood that the point made was in reference to practitioners who felt something was still missing despite an ardent approach in maintaining a good (spiritual) practice regime. Anyway, addressing dissatisfaction from a Hinayana context when here it is applied in a Mahayana context can be problematic. Without common ground, its easy to make the error in presuming what someone *needs. 

[C T]

Hi CT,

 

 

 

In the Dark Night thread. Yasjua said this:

 

 

I thought this was really interesting, that the growth came when he returned to everyday matters.  But I wonder if this applies to me because I've always been very much in the 'thick of life' - Either working, or being at home with the babies. or a bit of both, and now three young children - up at 6 collapse by 10 in the evening.  I know many people do have busier lives than me, but I'm not exactly sitting on a mountain top either.

 

But that said:

 

 

I can't say that loving kindness to all humanity is my way at all.  Pursuit of wisdom has definitely been my preliminary platform.  and yes you are right, it has led me to a place where I cannot at all conceive where to go next because all the usual paths through life in this world don't interest me, or more like, I have intellectually 'seen through' them all.

 

 

Could you say more about this poverty of spirit?

 

Thnaks

We may not be able to actively apply loving kindness to all beings, but we can get a sense that developing an attitude of loving kindness can foster very optimal conditions for cultivating a meaningful spiritual path, do you agree? Like i mentioned in another post somewhere, enlightenment becomes more valuable and meaningful only when others get to share it. This does not mean that we only share after we have attained it - the act of considering others' welfare and happiness is itself an enlightening act and can only proceed from a person whose view is balanced, i think this is what the Buddhist masters like Tsongkhapa and others are pointing out. The more we exercise this relative aspect of the path, which is the altruistic side of things, the more meaningful the wisdom realisations become. Otherwise it can become top-heavy, and when that occurs, one of the conditions we will experience (imo) is what you are currently experiencing. 

 

(Btw, I must apologise for making numerous references to Buddhist concepts, but it is what i am using as a point of reference. Im not zealously advocating that you accept anything said here, merely reflect and see if you can relate to some of the points mentioned in an open-minded sort of way). 

 

 

 

As for spiritual impoverishment...  its like being completely parched, a condition or feeling as if the heart is dried up and no matter what, most times it cannot be revived thru ordinary means. It can occur when dark night experiences reaches a precarious stage and the experiencer gets overwhelmed by the starkness of realisation that suddenly contracts the heart so much that it simply shuts down. Its an extreme result of aversion, a sudden, unmitigated rejection of finding oneself at the edge.

 

Metaphorically speaking, dark night of the soul is like being at the precipice of transformation - every feeling, every experience, every thought becomes so vivid that it seems to 'hurt' beyond what the senses can filter - most people at that point will make a u-turn and begin the long (spiritual) journey back towards wholeness; this is where meaning start to become very important. This is one of three options. Another option is where the courageous makes a stand and refuse to leave that precipice, preferring to explore the limits of their endurance and partake of all the extreme joys and pain that place can bring; and then there are those who succumb, wilting under the extreme heat of that barren landscape some call the spiritual wilderness. 

 

I sense that you may have inadvertently found yourself opting for the second choice because you are here doing just that - exploring your inner limitations and challenging the all-inclusive paradigms you have accumulated to see where next you want to go   . Someone who is lost in that barren place (im assuming you think maybe you are) will not have the sort of clarity that you have in expressing their condition. 

[9th]

Huh back at you. I think you missed the context in which the term 'dissatisfaction' was used above. 

 

Hmm.  This was the context I was talking about, the part I quoted above, where you talk about how in Buddhist terms its likened to "getting lost in the absolute":

C T, on 21 Mar 2015 - 08:03, said:

A number of posters who have shared here in the past about their spiritual dilemma have demonstrated profound, coherent insights into their experience - this shows a certain level of wisdom, which is very positive, but despite that, they expressed a sense of dissatisfaction - its as if there is an inner gnawing which cannot be specifically located and therefore unaddressable, but tangibly felt all the same. In Buddhist terms, this is sometimes likened to getting lost in the absolute.

 

Seems pretty specific there, and thats what I was responding to.  Its not that Im fixated on the word, it just seems like you are talking about a completely different thing than what I was saying - which is that, Id say in Buddhist terms dissatisfaction has nothing to do with "getting lost in the absolute" as you said above.  So I disagree with that statement.  Then I tried to provide an example as to why I disagree with it.

[Rara]

Hi all,

 

In another post freeform said something about the Dark Night of the Soul that got me thinking:

 

 

I'm sure lots of us can connect with this feeling, like you can no longer see the meaning or pleasure in something like a new car. You once did, you remember how it feels, but its beyond you now and therefore the colleague seems to you someone alien who you can no longer connect with.

 

But then it occurred to me:

 

I have three young children so as you can imagine Christmas is a pretty exciting time. But for some reason, I don't feel alienated from my children just because they are besides themselves with excitement over their new Lego set. What happens is that I simply remember being a child myself, and experience the pleasure vicariously. I let their pleasure become my own pleasure, even though I couldn't care less about any new Lego set for myself.

 

So why don't I do the same with my colleague and his new car? Why do I let myself feel alienated from him, and from a whole lot of other people who are living life looking for the same pleasures?

 

Is the solution to alienation, simply accepting that you have outgrown what other people have not yet outgrown. And when we truly accept this, might we start to take pleasure in their naive ways as we do children?

 

I'm sure lots of you feel very uncomfortable at this, because I know I do. There is something very anxiety provoking about placing ourselves senior to pretty much the whole of humanity.

 

It smacks of spiritual pride doesn't it? Adopting the rather patronising position: "I remember when I too used to enjoy such trifles. Your innocence fills my heart with joy!"

 

So I think alienation is borne of fear of being who you actually already are. It is the fear of separating yourself from your former peers, of going alone. It is the lack of confidence in yourself, and therefore alienation is paradoxically, the excessive attachment to who you once were and all the people who were like you.

 

The alienation is not from others, as you imagine, it is alienation from your self.

Seems that the natural priority is in place. It is easier to feel happy for something that you genuinely have an emotional attachment to. In your case, you kids! Which is great btw

 

Seems that you have outgrown the interests of old. I struggle endlessly with this sort of thing, professionally. Smile and nod politely. "Very good for you!". If they ask why you are lifeless, just be honest "well, it's just not really my interest any more".

 

We change when we get older. Not by choice...and if we resist the change, we just end up unhappy.