Dementia and the Dao

[Shidifen]

The tale of the demented Hua-Tzu (book three, Dreams) is one of my favourite stories in the Book of Lieh-Tzu. I’ve worked in the secured dementia unit of an aged care facility and I saw first hand the effects of various dementias on the residents and, compared to those ‘blessed’ with going through a natural aging, I can honestly say I don’t fear Alzheimer’s or any other type of dementia. I felt Hua-Tzu’s pain after he was cured… I’ve included the entire story as translated by Lionel Giles below. If you don’t have a digital or hard copy of the Book of Lieh-Tzu, you don’t know what you’re missing out on!

 

Yang-li Hua-tzu, of the Sung State, was afflicted in middle age by loss of memory. Anything he received in the morning he had forgotten by the evening, anything he gave away in the evening he had forgotten the next morning. Out-of-doors, he forgot to walk; indoors, he forgot to sit down. At any given moment, he had no recollection of what had just taken place; and a little later on, he could not even recollect what had happened then. All his family were perfectly disgusted with him. Fortune-tellers were summoned, but their divinations proved unsuccessful; Wizards were sought out, but their exorcisms were ineffectual; physicians were called in, but their remedies were of no avail. At last, a learned professor from the Lu State volunteered his services, declaring that he could effect a cure. Hua-tzu's wife and family immediately offered him half their estate if only he would tell them how to set to work. The professor replied: 'This is a case which cannot be dealt with by means of auspices and diagrams; the evil cannot be removed by prayers and incantations, nor successfully combated by drugs and potions. What I shall try to do is to influence his mind and turn the current of his thoughts; in that way a cure is likely to be brought about.'

 

Accordingly, the experiment was begun. The professor exposed his patient to cold, so that he was forced to beg for clothes; subjected him to hunger, so that he was fain to ask for food; left him in darkness, so that he was obliged to search for light. Soon, he was able to report progress to the sons of the house, saying gleefully: 'The disease can be checked. But the methods I shall employ have been handed down as a secret in my family, and cannot be made known to the public. All attendants must, therefore, be kept out of the way, and I must be shut up alone with my patient.' The professor was allowed to have his way, and for the space of seven days no one knew what was going on in the sick man's chamber. Then, one fine morning, the treatment came to an end, and, wonderful to relate, the disease of so many years' standing had entirely disappeared!

 

No sooner had Hua-tzu regained his senses, however, than he flew into a great rage, drove his wife out of doors, beat his sons, and, snatching up a spear, hotly pursued the professor through the town. On being arrested and asked to explain his conduct, this is what he said: 'Lately when I was steeped in forgetfulness, my senses were so benumbed that I was quite unconscious of the existence of the outer world. But now I have been brought suddenly to a perception of the events of half a lifetime. Preservation and destruction, gain and loss, sorrow and joy, love and hate have begun to throw out their myriad tentacles to invade my peace; and these emotions will, I fear, continue to keep my mind in the state of turmoil that I now experience. Oh! if I could but recapture a short moment of that blessed oblivion!'

 

'If such is the man's reaction to an infirmity which resembles the Highest Principle, how much greater will be the effect of incorporation in the Absolute!'

[dust]

Aside from the fact that dementia doesn't prevent someone from feeling emotions, and can in some cases even lead to greater anger, frustration, and other extremes, it is also incredibly difficult on family members, is it not?

 

And if our goal in life is numbness and oblivion, why don't we all just overdose on heroin and be done with it?

[Shidifen]

Hello dustybeijing. 

 

Aside from the fact that dementia doesn't prevent someone from feeling emotions, and can in some cases even lead to greater anger, frustration, and other extremes, it is also incredibly difficult on family members, is it not?

 

The opening post was based on my experiences working with demented elderly people and I am quite aware of the affect that dementia has on the family and friends of the demented person as well as how some of the afflicted are forced to cope with their symptoms as the disease progresses. I wrote the post based on my experiences working with people who were at the stage where they could no longer cope with the day to day chores of everyday life; feeding themselves, dressing themselves, toileting themselves, bathing themselves. Yes, they felt emotions such as anger and frustration, as well as joy and happiness. They remembered good experiences from their early lives and externalised those thoughts through laughter and they could become aggressive when remembering things that weren’t so nice. All of this is mentioned in the story.

 

Yang-li Hua-tzu, of the Sung State, was afflicted in middle age by loss of memory. Anything he received in the morning he had forgotten by the evening, anything he gave away in the evening he had forgotten the next morning. Out-of-doors, he forgot to walk; indoors, he forgot to sit down. At any given moment, he had no recollection of what had just taken place; and a little later on, he could not even recollect what had happened then. All his family were perfectly disgusted with him.

 

And if our goal in life is numbness and oblivion, why don't we all just overdose on heroin and be done with it?

 

Who said anyone’s goal in life is numbness and oblivion? This is what the character of  Hua-tzu said; “Lately when I was steeped in forgetfulness, my senses were so benumbed that I was quite unconscious of the existence of the outer world.”

 

He never set out to benumb his senses.

 

“But now I have been brought suddenly to a perception of the events of half a lifetime. Preservation and destruction, gain and loss, sorrow and joy, love and hate have begun to throw out their myriad tentacles to invade my peace”

 

Hua-tzu was venting because he was at a point where he had forgotten, not obliterated (he had no control over the disease!) his former life and all its pain. As the Daodejing says, you can’t have the experience of one thing without the experience of its opposite. You might think preservation, gain, joy and love are great things, but with them come destruction, loss, sorrow and hate.

 

“and these emotions will, I fear, continue to keep my mind in the state of turmoil that I now experience.”

 

Tempering this state of turmoil is the goal of both Daoists and Buddhists, hence Lieh-Tzu has Hua-Tzu finish with, “Oh! if I could but recapture a short moment of that blessed oblivion!”

 

Lieh-Tzu then finishes with the point of the tale, “If such is the man's reaction to an infirmity which resembles the Highest Principle, how much greater will be the effect of incorporation in the Absolute!”

 

None of us asked to be born, just as none of our parents asked to be born, but we all try to do with our lives the best we can. While we live we will experience some bad and some good. We will try to hold on to the good and try to let go of the bad. Remembering the good, unfortunately, can make the current bad even worse. I have learnt that experience is fleeting; nothing stays the same for ever. And I have learnt from working with the elderly that the only way to be released from the pain of an ancient body is to die or be somewhere else. That is why I, personally, do not fear losing my marbles as I age. It is a personal, for me alone, just mine, observation; and one that Hua-Tzu agrees with. I know it will cause pain to my loved ones but I also know that I will eventually reach a stage where I won’t be there to care. If it ever happens.

 

[dust]

Hello dustybeijing. 

 

Hi

 

 

 

The opening post was based on my experiences working with demented elderly people and I am quite aware of the affect that dementia has on the family and friends of the demented person as well as how some of the afflicted are forced to cope with their symptoms as the disease progresses. I wrote the post based on my experiences working with people who were at the stage where they could no longer cope with the day to day chores of everyday life; feeding themselves, dressing themselves, toileting themselves, bathing themselves. Yes, they felt emotions such as anger and frustration, as well as joy and happiness. They remembered good experiences from their early lives and externalised those thoughts through laughter and they could become aggressive when remembering things that weren’t so nice. All of this is mentioned in the story.

 

I'm sure you are aware of these things, more so than I am, which is why your appreciation of this story bemused me slightly.

 

 

 

 

闔室毒之

 

I think "All his family were perfectly disgusted with him" is a pretty awful translation. I would suggest,

 

"It was like a poison/illness/hardship for his entire family."

 

Not simply suggesting that they were annoyed/disgusted by him..!

 

This, to me, makes it a little better.

 

Anyway, even considering this, this is the only real mention of any negative emotion during his forgetful period. It doesn't say that he was particularly upset by any of it, does it?

 

 

 

Who said anyone’s goal in life is numbness and oblivion? This is what the character of  Hua-tzu said; “Lately when I was steeped in forgetfulness, my senses were so benumbed that I was quite unconscious of the existence of the outer world.”

 

Yes....exactly.

 

"Oh! if I could but recapture a short moment of that blessed oblivion!"

 

He's saying that he wants to be "at peace" again, free from the chaos of his thoughts. Isn't that suggesting that to be forgetful, senseless, and emotionless is a preferable state of being? Preferable to being a "fully functioning" human?

 

 

 

He never set out to benumb his senses.

 

“But now I have been brought suddenly to a perception of the events of half a lifetime. Preservation and destruction, gain and loss, sorrow and joy, love and hate have begun to throw out their myriad tentacles to invade my peace”

 

Hua-tzu was venting because he was at a point where he had forgotten, not obliterated (he had no control over the disease!) his former life and all its pain. As the Daodejing says, you can’t have the experience of one thing without the experience of its opposite. You might think preservation, gain, joy and love are great things, but with them come destruction, loss, sorrow and hate.

 

In my opinion, whether or not he intended to forget all his pain and happiness is irrelevant; the relevant point is the suggestion that a life entirely free of emotion is good.

 

A life free of family, free of growth, free of awareness -- this is what the man wants to recapture, no?

 

 

 

“and these emotions will, I fear, continue to keep my mind in the state of turmoil that I now experience.”

 

Tempering this state of turmoil is the goal of both Daoists and Buddhists, hence Lieh-Tzu has Hua-Tzu finish with, “Oh! if I could but recapture a short moment of that blessed oblivion!”

 

Tempering turmoil is the goal of many of us, for sure.

 

But I don't think that dementia, or some kind of temporary amnesia, is a particularly good example of this.

 

And (maybe it's just me, but) I would rather deal with all of the ups and downs of life than live in a foggy state of senselessness.

 

 

 

Lieh-Tzu then finishes with the point of the tale, “If such is the man's reaction to an infirmity which resembles the Highest Principle, how much greater will be the effect of incorporation in the Absolute!”

 

Well what I'm about to say is not entirely relevant because the "moral" of the story remains basically the same, but I don't think this is actually what is written in the Chinese.

 

Original Chinese:

子貢聞而怪之，以告孔子。孔子曰：「此非汝所及乎！」顧謂顏回記之

 

Modern translation:

子貢聽說後感到奇怪，把這事告訴了孔子。孔子說：“這不是你所能懂得的啊！”回頭叫顏回把此事記錄下來

 

English translation:

Zigong heard this, and found it odd, and went to tell Confucius. Confucius said, "This is beyond your understanding!" Yanhui was called to write it all down.

 

 

None of us asked to be born, just as none of our parents asked to be born, but we all try to do with our lives the best we can. While we live we will experience some bad and some good. We will try to hold on to the good and try to let go of the bad. Remembering the good, unfortunately, can make the current bad even worse. I have learnt that experience is fleeting; nothing stays the same for ever. And I have learnt from working with the elderly that the only way to be released from the pain of an ancient body is to die or be somewhere else. That is why I, personally, do not fear losing my marbles as I age. It is a personal, for me alone, just mine, observation; and one that Hua-Tzu agrees with. I know it will cause pain to my loved ones but I also know that I will eventually reach a stage where I won’t be there to care. If it ever happens.

 

Well, I am not trying to tell you that your own feeling is wrong. Simply that I do not share your feeling.

 

I want to be lucid to the end.

[Shidifen]

闔室毒之

 

I think "All his family were perfectly disgusted with him" is a pretty awful translation. I would suggest,

 

"It was like a poison/illness/hardship for his entire family."

 

Not simply suggesting that they were annoyed/disgusted by him..!

 

This, to me, makes it a little better.

 

I agree. I took that as a given. Anyone who works with people suffering illness or disease generally accepts that it is the illness or disease at the root of any behavioural issues, not the sufferer themself. 

 

 Anyway, even considering this, this is the only real mention of any negative emotion during his forgetful period. It doesn't say that he was particularly upset by any of it, does it?

 

True, but from experience I know that Hua-tzu would have gone through a period where he would have lost control of his bowel and bladder and he would have been lucid enough to know the humiliation of it and the embarrassment of needing his wife or another female relative to clean him up. I don’t think that would have been men’s work back in the time of Lieh-Tzu. Sufferers of dementia go through the same five stages of grieving that anyone with a terminal illness go through, so I’m quite sure he would have been upset by it and his upset would have been apparent; you yourself previously posted that dementia can lead to “anger, frustration, and other extremes”. Lieh-Tzu just didn’t mention it in the story. He possibly didn’t think it was relevant or that it was common knowledge.

 

He's saying that he wants to be "at peace" again, free from the chaos of his thoughts. Isn't that suggesting that to be forgetful, senseless, and emotionless is a preferable state of being? Preferable to being a "fully functioning" human?

 

No, I don’t think it’s suggesting that at all. I think he experienced something that eventually gave him peace of mind. After he was cured, he could compare that experience with what came before it and what he expects to come in the future. From a philosophical point of view he achieved the closest he has ever come to consciously merging with the Dao. After his cure his main lament is that he fears he will never be able to recapture another moment of that lost feeling. Maybe that’s an allegorical reference to the benefit of meditation. I don’t know. But even with meditation there is no point in its practice if you can’t come back and apply what you’ve learnt from it. The other way Lieh-Tzu mentions to become one with the Dao is to die. Death is pretty much the antithesis of a “fully functioning” human!

 

Maybe Hua-tzu would have settled for the ability to enter and leave that state at will. I know of nothing off the top of my head which intimates a sage should prefer a life of ‘nothingness’ as opposed to a life as a fully functioning human in Daoist philosophy. In book four Nan-kuo Tzu is mentioned as having “the appearance of fullness, but his mind is a blank. His ears do not hear, his eyes do not see, his mouth does not speak, his mind is devoid of knowledge, his body free from agitation” and “Body and soul seemed not to belong together, and to be unable to respond to the stimuli of the external world.” He is still a fully functioning human, though, as this shows; “Suddenly, Nan-kuo Tzii singled out the hindermost row of Lieh Tzu s disciples, and began to talk to them quite pleasantly and simply, though in the tone of a superior.” Lieh-Tzu also seems to think that it is possible, through abstraction, to stop dreams from occurring. So it is possible, at least to Lieh-Tzu, to be at peace from the chaos of the mind and outside world without being dead or non-functioning and to return to that which you have striven to leave. The Daodejing is full of advice to help its readers dull their senses to unwanted or unnecessary external influences and still live a satisfying life.

 

In my opinion, whether or not he intended to forget all his pain and happiness is irrelevant; the relevant point is the suggestion that a life entirely free of emotion is good.

 

I’m not sure that a life entirely free of emotion is a good thing. Perhaps compared to a life of negative emotion it would be. A life free of pain, both physical and emotional, would be a good thing.

 

A life free of family, free of growth, free of awareness -- this is what the man wants to recapture, no?

 

Yes, as forgetfulness. I don’t think he’s asking that they never existed. If he could have the good of all that without the bad, he would be a very happy man indeed. 

 

Tempering turmoil is the goal of many of us, for sure.

 

But I don't think that dementia, or some kind of temporary amnesia, is a particularly good example of this.

 

Lieh Tzu seemed to. 

 

Well what I'm about to say is not entirely relevant because the "moral" of the story remains basically the same, but I don't think this is actually what is written in the Chinese.

 

Original Chinese:

子貢聞而怪之，以告孔子。孔子曰：「此非汝所及乎！」顧謂顏回記之

 

Modern translation:

子貢聽說後感到奇怪，把這事告訴了孔子。孔子說：“這不是你所能懂得的啊！”回頭叫顏回把此事記錄下來

 

English translation:

Zigong heard this, and found it odd, and went to tell Confucius. Confucius said, "This is beyond your understanding!" Yanhui was called to write it all down.

 

Chinese is currently beyond my understanding so I have to rely on the work of those more learned than me. I know there’s a translation by Angus Graham out there. I’ll have to get my hands on a copy of it one day. Do you have a full translation of the story of Hua-tzu you could post? Do you know where Giles got the story’s postscript from? It’s enclosed in quotes so I assumed it was something he translated but it is nothing like what you posted. I checked the Chinese and what you posted definitely makes more sense of the Chinese!

 

Well, I am not trying to tell you that your own feeling is wrong. Simply that I do not share your feeling.

 

I want to be lucid to the end.

 

That is the goal of all of us. Nothing could better it. But I have seen some individuals put in the unfortunate situation of not wanting that and not having any control over their wants or desires. I would swap what they went through with what Hua-tzu went through. 

[dust]

Lieh Tzu seemed to. 

 

I wonder.... are we sure it's dementia he's talking about?

 

Huazi is described as middle-aged and, as we've noted, there's no mention of the negative symptoms that accompany dementia (incontinence etc)... maybe it was amnesia, short-term memory loss? That would also explain why he was able to be cured...

 

 

 

Chinese is currently beyond my understanding so I have to rely on the work of those more learned than me. I know there’s a translation by Angus Graham out there. I’ll have to get my hands on a copy of it one day. Do you have a full translation of the story of Hua-tzu you could post? Do you know where Giles got the story’s postscript from? It’s enclosed in quotes so I assumed it was something he translated but it is nothing like what you posted. I checked the Chinese and what you posted definitely makes more sense of the Chinese!

 

Not sure where the translation is from originally. I don't know much about the Liezi at all.

 

I do know that whoever did the translation took a few liberties with it!

[Shidifen]

I wonder.... are we sure it's dementia he's talking about?

 

Huazi is described as middle-aged and, as we've noted, there's no mention of the negative symptoms that accompany dementia (incontinence etc)... maybe it was amnesia, short-term memory loss? That would also explain why he was able to be cured...

 

Lieh-Tzu said the disease lasted many years.

 

Lionel Giles

The professor was allowed to have his way, and for the space of seven days no one knew what was going on in the sick man s chamber.  Then, one fine morning, the treatment came to an end, and, wonderful to relate, the disease of so many years standing had entirely disappeared !

 

Angus Graham

“The sickness is curable. But my arts have been passed down secretly through the generations, and are not disclosed to outsiders. I shall shut out his attendants, and stay alone with him in his room for seven days.” They agreed, and no one knew what methods the Confucian used; but the sickness of many years was completely dispelled in a single morning.

 

I don’t really think, for the story to work, that the disease needs to be given a name. I think the main points are the fact Hua-tzu lost his memories, both good and bad, and eventually regained them. He lived for a time in total ignorance of the past and with no worries of the future and now he fears for his future sanity because he's aware his future is just going to be a continuance of his past.

 

Not sure where the translation is from originally. I don't know much about the Liezi at all.

 

I do know that whoever did the translation took a few liberties with it!

 

I did a lot of searching and finally found a copy of Angus Graham’s translation of the Hua-tzu (Huazi) story.

 

In the middle age Huazi of Yang-li in sung lost his memory. He would receive a present in the morning and forget it by the evening; give a present in the evening and forget it by the morning. In the street he would forget to walk; at home he would forget to sit down. Today he would not remember yesterday; tomorrow he would not remember today.

 

His family were troubled about it and invited a diviner to tell his fortune but without success. They invited a shaman to perform an auspicious rite but it made no difference. They invited a doctor to treat him but it did no good.

 

There was a Confucian of Lu who, acting as his own go-between, claimed that he could cure it. Huazi’s wife and children offered half of their property in return for his skill.

 

The Confucian told them: “This is clearly not a disease which can be divined by hexagrams and omens, or charmed away by auspicious prayers, or treated by medicines and the needle. I shall try reforming his mind, changing his thoughts; there is a good chance that he will recover.”

 

Then the Confucian tried stripping Huazi and he looked for his clothes; tried starving him and he looked for food; tried shutting him up in the dark and he looked for light.

 

The Confucian was delighted and told the man’s sons: the sickness is curable but my arts have been passed down secretly through the generations and are not disclosed to outsiders - so I shall shut out his attendants and stay alone with him in his room for seven days.” They agreed and no one knew what methods the Confucian used but the sickness of many years was completely dispelled in a single morning.

 

When Huazi woke up he was very angry. He dismissed his wife, punished his sons, and chased away the Confucian with a spear.

 

The authorities of Sung arrested him and wanted to know the reason. “Formerly when I forgot,” said Huazi, “I was boundless, I did not notice whether heaven and earth existed or not. Now suddenly I remember, and all the disasters and recoveries, gains and losses, joys and sorrows, loves and hates of twenty, thirty years past rise up in a thousand tangled threads. I fear that all the disasters and recoveries, gains and losses, joys and sorrows, loves and hates still to come will confound my heart just as much. Shall I never again find a moment of forgetfulness?’

[Shidifen]

I just came across a site with the works of Osho, aka Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh, aka Acharya Rajneesh, aka Chandra Mohan Jain. He’s an Indian philosopher and guru who wrote on everything Eastern – Zen, Daoism, Buddhism as well as Christianity and Judaism. Unfortunately he tends to mix them all together when he writes, although I enjoyed most of his book titled The Art of Living and Dying.

 

Here’s the link to his commentary on the Hua-tzu story.

 

http://oshosearch.net/Convert/Articles_Osho/Tao_The_Pathless_Path_Vol2/Osho-Tao-The-Pathless-Path-Vol-2-00000003.html

 

It has some very interesting stories mixed in with it.

[dust]

I don’t really think, for the story to work, that the disease needs to be given a name. I think the main points are the fact Hua-tzu lost his memories, both good and bad, and eventually regained them. He lived for a time in total ignorance of the past and with no worries of the future and now he fears for his future sanity because he's aware his future is just going to be a continuance of his past.

 

Yes yes. These are the important points. I actually think it only works if the disease is not given a name.

 

I think that if we take the story at face value like this, it poses an interesting question, and we can see why Huazi might prefer to go back to a state of forgetfulness or oblivion; but if we look at any specific condition of memory loss or wasting, and we try to tie the story into real life, we'll see that it's not so simple.

 

 

 

I did a lot of searching and finally found a copy of Angus Graham’s translation of the Hua-tzu (Huazi) story.

 

Yeah, I think I prefer this one. Thanks for that.

 

I'll take a look at the other link later..

[dust]

I've read through much of the article. I like how it starts, and he makes some good points about the past tying us down.

 

The past is no more and the future is nothing but a desire to repeat the past - of course, in a better way, but it is the same past.

 

I certainly agree that a detachment from the past carries clarity and peace with it