Is quantum physics bunk?

[Marblehead]

 

The beauty of modern physics methods

I liked your post because I can "feel" your understanding even though we are walking different paths.

[thelerner]

Good science should debunk the old.  The scientific method demands an open mind.  Sacred cows need to be sacrificed.  We move from paradigm to paradigm trying to find the solution that presents the best 'map' of reality.

[GrandmasterP]

One thing for sure.

Anyone attempting to explain or critique QP and/or Superstring Theory - and who does not currently hold tenure in an accredited university or institute currently in receipt of research funding into their field - has not the first idea what they are talking about.

Self included.

I only know that superstring trumps QP because the physics boffins at my old uni who had drawn down funding for QP had to re- bid for superstring work because all the research funds for QP had dried up.

Edited March 23, 2015 by GrandmasterP

[Brian]

The OP has been shown to be a spoof but the conversation continues...

 

As George Box said, all models are wrong but some are useful. An important question (which must be answered repeatedly and on a case by case basis) is, how wrong does a model need to be before it stops being useful?

 

One of the problems with "modern physics" is that we are too close to it -- we watch the sausage being made, as it were.

 

Anyone interested in physics ("modern" or otherwise) would be well advised to start here:

http://www.feynmanlectures.info/

 

There is a natural desire to "jump to the last chapter" -- or, in this case, straight to the third volume. No harm in starting there but most people will be hopelessly lost without introduction and context. I would suggest starting at the very beginning of Volume I and working your way through to the end of Volume III. Take the time to understand what you are reading and you will have a better grasp of "how 'the real world' works" than probably 99% of the people you will ever encounter -- and you will still be 50 years behind!

 

[noonespecial]

The truth will always stay one step ahead of us.

[Taomeow]

By all means move on from Kant, but only if you've understood him first. Hegel ,Schopenhauer, Nietzsche, Jaspers and kierkegaard were the five steps I took next. But most physicists have yet to reach Kant.

 

No Ludwig Wittgenstein on your list?..  No Karl Popper?..  

[Taomeow]

The OP has been shown to be a spoof but the conversation continues...

 

As George Box said, all models are wrong but some are useful. An important question (which must be answered repeatedly and on a case by case basis) is, how wrong does a model need to be before it stops being useful?

 

One of the problems with "modern physics" is that we are too close to it -- we watch the sausage being made, as it were.

 

Anyone interested in physics ("modern" or otherwise) would be well advised to start here:

http://www.feynmanlectures.info/

 

There is a natural desire to "jump to the last chapter" -- or, in this case, straight to the third volume. No harm in starting there but most people will be hopelessly lost without introduction and context. I would suggest starting at the very beginning of Volume I and working your way through to the end of Volume III. Take the time to understand what you are reading and you will have a better grasp of "how 'the real world' works" than probably 99% of the people you will ever encounter -- and you will still be 50 years behind!

 

 

I second that.  I followed this very advice many years ago, and upon getting as fluent in modern physics as an informal education can allow, was rewarded with many impromptu lectures in quantum mechanics, superstrings theory, astrophysics, Minkowski spacetime mathematics and the like -- all the yummy stuff.   So with this classical foundation I was equipped to tackle Gilbert Ning LIng's biophysics, fractals and chaos theories, and finally, as a crowning gem, taoist physics of wuji/taiji.  

 

I have a T-shirt that says, Schrödinger's cat is alive! -- in black letters arranged just so that the white spaces between them form the word "dead."  I have come to believe that the same is true of modern physics.

Edited March 23, 2015 by Taomeow

[Brian]

Oh, and to address the sometimes-repeated saw about how physics instruction should begin with quantum theory (or some other "modern" starting point) rather than beginning with ancient concepts, I recommend the following experiment:

 

First, beginning with a Feynmann diagram (or with string theory or what-have-you) and resorting to no "old" physics, describe the motion of a bouncing ball.

 

Next, repeat this process starting with Newton.

 

Finally, report back here with what you have learned.

 

[doc benway]

I liked your post because I can "feel" your understanding even though we are walking different paths.

 

It's nice to remember sometimes that our different paths still rest on the same earth... most of the time.

[doc benway]

The OP has been shown to be a spoof but the conversation continues...

 

As George Box said, all models are wrong but some are useful. An important question (which must be answered repeatedly and on a case by case basis) is, how wrong does a model need to be before it stops being useful?

 

One of the problems with "modern physics" is that we are too close to it -- we watch the sausage being made, as it were.

 

Anyone interested in physics ("modern" or otherwise) would be well advised to start here:

http://www.feynmanlectures.info/

 

There is a natural desire to "jump to the last chapter" -- or, in this case, straight to the third volume. No harm in starting there but most people will be hopelessly lost without introduction and context. I would suggest starting at the very beginning of Volume I and working your way through to the end of Volume III. Take the time to understand what you are reading and you will have a better grasp of "how 'the real world' works" than probably 99% of the people you will ever encounter -- and you will still be 50 years behind!

 

 

One of the best book purchases I've ever made... 

[doc benway]

I remember in an english class I had to write a persuasive essay. I wrote it about how we should change scientific pedagogy so that it was presented historically...beginning with theories developed in the ancient world...

 

I can't like this twice so I'll quote it...

I have a wonderful book that does something like this called Mathematics: From the Birth of Numbers by Jan Gullberg.

 

While we may criticize science and scientists, looking at the temporal evolution of methods and views is humbling for me. 

I have enormous respect for the people in the trenches and the work they did, are doing, and will do in these fields.

 

And yet I can't help but think that no matter how far our intellect takes us, it will never capture the experience of that moment when we take a deep breath, exhale, and rest in that space that remains, undisturbed by thought.

 

This puts me in mind of Roger Penrose, a theoretical physicist who has been working on ideas about quantum theory and consciousness for some time, who referred to string theory as "a fashion" and quantum mechanics as "faith."

[ralis]

For anyone interested in furthering their understanding regarding the process of scientific models, Thomas Kuhn's, 'The Structure of Scientific Revolutions' classic work is highly recommended.

 

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0226458083/ref=s9_psimh_gw_p14_d0_i2?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=desktop-1&pf_rd_r=14HG3HVWQS7TDZDSPT82&pf_rd_t=36701&pf_rd_p=1970559082&pf_rd_i=desktop

Edited March 23, 2015 by ralis

[voidisyinyang]

Science is the religion of our time.

 

Sure philosophy of science is interesting.

 

I've studied it in great depth. But it is very limited still.

 

science is based on math. as math professor Luigi Borzacchini notes - western math is based on a "pre-established deep disharmony."

 

In actuality nonwestern music shows the way out of these logical traps - non-western music is the basis for Taoism also.

 

But I do use science as "intellectual self-defense" to reverse-engineer my qigong training.

 

Vagus nerve activation increases cerebrospinal fluid serotonin levels for increased brain serotonin

 

I just did a blog post on this - it is a big breakthrough for me.

 

Remember Witch - debating with me about whether this was true? Qigong increases the serotonin levels in the brain via vagus nerve activation.

 

http://innersoundqigong.blogspot.com/?zx=6734c48b86308bd8

 

Now I have the hard science to back me up.

 

But science is way behind what qigong is capable of. Just consider the Taoist Yoga book - it reveals psycho-physiology that is totally way beyond anything western science could imagine.

 

But still - at least there are some hints out there yet the methodology of science is based on symmetric math and it increases via logarithmic-based dimensions bringing with it increased social injustice and the ecological crisis.

 

Physics is basically a big circle jerk male ejaculation contest and notice how the fastest destruction of ecology in the billion years of life on Earth just gets ignored by physics. haha. That's because the ecological crisis is a direct result of the wrong math that physics is based on.

 

It's true that quantum physics hits the end run of this issue with time-frequency uncertainty or Fourier Uncertainty - and the Law of Phase Harmony that arises from hit - but still it relies on the symmetric classical math for these issues.

 

So yeah actually that satire of Goswami is not that far off from the truth.

 

Consider Vananda Shiva - she also got her PhD. in theoretical physics with her thesis on quantum nonduality. haha.

 

So then she became an ecofeminist activist supporting the poorest female farmers in India against Western science.

 

So there are examples of people who do take the leap from the edge of quantum physics into the beyond of complementary opposite shamanic resonance.

 

Dr. Mae-Wan HO, quantum biologist, has also been a strong activist against genetic engineering and she supports organic farming, etc. renewable energy, etc. So she has a lot of parallels with Vandana Shiva.

[ralis]

Science is the religion of our time.

 

Sure philosophy of science is interesting.

 

I've studied it in great depth. But it is very limited still.

 

science is based on math. as math professor Luigi Borzacchini notes - western math is based on a "pre-established deep disharmony."

 

In actuality nonwestern music shows the way out of these logical traps - non-western music is the basis for Taoism also.

 

But I do use science as "intellectual self-defense" to reverse-engineer my qigong training.

 

Vagus nerve activation increases cerebrospinal fluid serotonin levels for increased brain serotonin

 

I just did a blog post on this - it is a big breakthrough for me.

 

Remember Witch - debating with me about whether this was true? Qigong increases the serotonin levels in the brain via vagus nerve activation.

 

http://innersoundqigong.blogspot.com/?zx=6734c48b86308bd8

 

Now I have the hard science to back me up.

 

But science is way behind what qigong is capable of. Just consider the Taoist Yoga book - it reveals psycho-physiology that is totally way beyond anything western science could imagine.

 

But still - at least there are some hints out there yet the methodology of science is based on symmetric math and it increases via logarithmic-based dimensions bringing with it increased social injustice and the ecological crisis.

 

Physics is basically a big circle jerk male ejaculation contest and notice how the fastest destruction of ecology in the billion years of life on Earth just gets ignored by physics. haha. That's because the ecological crisis is a direct result of the wrong math that physics is based on.

 

It's true that quantum physics hits the end run of this issue with time-frequency uncertainty or Fourier Uncertainty - and the Law of Phase Harmony that arises from hit - but still it relies on the symmetric classical math for these issues.

 

So yeah actually that satire of Goswami is not that far off from the truth.

 

Consider Vananda Shiva - she also got her PhD. in theoretical physics with her thesis on quantum nonduality. haha.

 

So then she became an ecofeminist activist supporting the poorest female farmers in India against Western science.

 

So there are examples of people who do take the leap from the edge of quantum physics into the beyond of complementary opposite shamanic resonance.

 

Dr. Mae-Wan HO, quantum biologist, has also been a strong activist against genetic engineering and she supports organic farming, etc. renewable energy, etc. So she has a lot of parallels with Vandana Shiva.

 

You keep referring to the wrong math. So far in all your writings you have not provided one well written practical application of the so called right math. Proof is required!

[Nikolai1]

The Hadron Collider is the modern symbol of monumental human silliness. Future generations will pity our naïveté. The wise among them will recognise that all societies develop myths for the sake of the weak minded. They will pretty sure where their own silliness lies.

 

 

To be wise is to transcend history and modernity. Wisdom is to see the antiquity in all innovation, the regress of all progress. The wisest Druids tolerated Stonehenge as a superstitious device for the masses.

 

 

This is what I think.

Edited March 24, 2015 by Nikolai1

[Seeker of Wisdom]

The Hadron Collider is the modern symbol of monumental human silliness. Future generations will pity our naïveté. The wise among them will recognise that all societies develop myths for the sake of the weak minded...

Scientific evidence isn't exactly a myth. It's the ideal epistemological framework for considering the objective physical universe.

 

The LHC is a monument to human curiosity and ingenuity.

[Wells]

.

Edited May 10, 2016 by Wells

[voidisyinyang]

proof as a concept assumes that an external observer can "contain" infinity. The Power Axiom Set as the basis for the Western Greek Miracle origin of science assumes an irrational magnitude "containment" of infinity as pure mathematics. In fact that is not pure - it is applied math with the magnitude as a physical object that is then used for applications.

 

So first of all - even literacy is a problem. Left-brain dominance and right-hand dominance is a particular type of human mentality that is based on what archaeologists call the  "symbolic revolution" as a philosophy to contain infinity - against wildness. So for the first time the art work became anthropocentric and the architecture emphasized rectilinear building.

 

Early agriculture in Western asia was based on this "containment" of infinity with a new anthropocentric focus and what happened? there was already an ecological crisis in the 8th Century BCE from early Western asian farming in the Levant. This then forced people to resort to herding animals as a way to try to survive the fall out of the deforestation and desertification from early agriculture - using lime-based cement to water proof the housing, requiring deforestation.

 

So we think we need math - you ask for the "right math."

 

As I have stated - it's been proven that the wrong math is based on a "pre-established deep disharmony." What that means is that within the context of WEstern math we know that it originated from music theory - and more specifically the wrong music theory.

 

Math professor Joe Mazur actually encouraged me to submit my research on this to the MMA journal - but obviously mathematicians don't want to consider the "right" music theory in order to solve their math problem. haha.

 

I quoted David Fowler, an expert on Platonic math, stating that the answer to the origin of compound ratios was found in music theory - but he wasn't a musician and so he didn't know the answer and he wasn't interested in looking! haha.

 

My blogpost on this topic gives more details - http://innersoundqigong.blogspot.com/2014/04/the-devils-interval-and-pre-established.html

 

I have updated that research btw - it is a long article, basically a small book. haha.

 

But the thing is that people still want some kind of physical empirical answer - when in fact the answer is listening and body-mind transformation through trance dancing aka Tai Chi and qigong meditation. Only we need to understand that the origins of qigong and Tai Chi are from non-western music theory.

 

It's very simple but the applications are universal. So the 1-4-5 music intervals are applied - for example the 12 notes of the music scale are really infinite energy as a spiral and this is the basis for the small universe meditation having 12 nodes along the body based on the yin/yang dynamics.

 

Yeah so how many of us have lived in a culture that doesn't rely on math of some sort - even the ancient Solar Dynasty empires of Western Asia relied on "divide and average" math using the same basic symmetric logic. The key again is to escape from this symmetric-based logic and to embrace the three-in-one unity as complementary opposites resonance which is the based for the older Dravidian Samkhya philosophy and the Taoist philosophy and the trance dance music of Africa which spread around the world as indigenous culture shamanism - documented by musicologist Dr. Victor Grauer.

 

So for example I had a recent coworker whom I discussed the energy qigong details - as he was interested and he shared some similar experiences, like they had their baby's head healed - the skull shape was reformed - without any touching to it, just external qi healing. Or maybe just some light touching.

 

But anyway when it came to music he insisted that words in music were just as important as the music itself. I tried to explain to him why this was not true. In fact the original human culture trance dance music relies on gibberish for words - just as Chuang Tzu explained, human language is no different than when we hear animal noises and think it is gibberish. haha. In fact there is "direct perception" as intelligence which can only be activated by a proper understanding of infinity as not being contained - as formless and something listened to through trance concentration.

 

So obviously we are dependent on technology and science and have evolved to have certain phenotypes - like drinking milk from herding or having white skin from lack of vitamin D in wheat based farming. Science is very useful in taking things apart and explaining things but the power of science is deceptive since it is just as much destructive as it is constructive. In reality ecology is way more powerful than science - so that for example no supercomputer can model all the networks of information in a highly diverse ecology like the Amazon rainforest.

 

I had a few examples of meeting cultures still not controlled by modern Western thinking - like the most traditional Berber village in Morocco - I went there - all the houses were hand built and in crazy shapes - the stairs were deliberately all uneven to slow down any Arab invaders - the food was all grown based on humanure compost, the wild sheep were "herded." So this is a culture that obviously "escaped" from the early ecological catastrophe of Western-based farming in the Levant. But it had lived like that sustainably for thousands of years - didn't know what an airplane was and when a bus passed on a newly installed gravel road - all the women raised their fists in the air and yelled at it - no tolerance for noise and air pollution. Also they all hung black "stink bomb" pails outside their houses to scare away the evil spirits. haha. It was a culture based on complementary opposites - so the unwed females were not allowed to talk to the males but the older couples would hook them up - so if they saw them eyeing each other - then it would be set up like that.

 

We are told not to idealize or romantize, etc. but the anthropologists studying the original human culture from at least 70,000 years ago - biologically we are the same as they are yet they had no warfare and they were based on total cooperation and sharing - the Bushmen culture - and all the males had to train to be spiritual healers using trance dance.

 

So the modern human is biologically cut off with their ontological roots - there is no need for math in the Bushmen culture. haha. Yet biologically - they are much more sophisticated then we are - they have their own qigong masters - the original qigong masters.

 

 

[Songtsan]

Consider it an IQ test...

 

what was my score?

[Marblehead]

what was my score?

Mine would likely be somewhere around minus 3 so I won't be taking the test.

[liminal_luke]

I have no idea if quantum mechanics is bunk or not, but the word "quantum" is a useful marketing tool for those who want to give their stuff a super-duper aura of spiritual superiority.  You got your quantum shiatsu, your quantum healing, quantum touch, and so forth.  As opposed, I suppose, to the hopelessly outdated Newtonian versions of such things.  People who understand physics might not be impressed, but they are likely not the intended market.

 

Liminal 

Edited March 25, 2015 by liminal_luke

[voidisyinyang]

I just watched Merchants of Doubt today - it's depressing but also very eye-opening.

 

It's based on Naomi Oreskes' book of same title. She is a historian of science.

 

I had read her earlier excellent history of science book on the debate over global tectonics.

 

The debate was essentially a continental reliance on empiricism with a U.S. focus on deductive analysis - the latter pre-emptively ruling out plate tectonics since it seemed counter-intuitive.

 

 

This is her lecture based on the book Merchants of Doubt.

 

But anyway - when Jim Nance talked to me about gravitons - he made a great comment about scientists - it slips me - but yeah - I mean obviously science is precise in documenting its own destruction of the planet but science is not accurate - it's based on the wrong foundation.

 

Merchants of Doubt is focused on the cover-up of climate catastrophe from global warming.

 

The main point is the temperature on Earth has been stable within 1 degree and that empirical fact debunks ecologists trying to claim that there is no homeostasis in ecology.

 

My undergrad degree was a new focus on sustainability and so I took a third of my courses in economics, a third in poli sci, and a third in biology. They were supposed to be integrated - instead I discovered that each of the disciplines used lies about the other ones to cover up their own lies. haha.

 

So the issue with science is much deeper - it has to do with left-brain dominance - even literacy is a problem.

 

But as far as physics go - 50% of it has always been military funded - at least that much.

 

Even Galileo was funded by the aristocracy because Galileo said he could cut down on labor costs for the aristocracy.

 

Science is all about logarithmic distribution of "resources" for materialistic gain.

 

So then we can have this "objective" liberal view that science can be objectively analyzed, etc.

 

But yes science is the great myth of our age - science is our current religion - it is our worldview.

 

Science is not neutral - it is a commodification of the planet through reductionism.

 

So my quantum physics professor  - his research was absconded by the military - turned top secret - he found out later. haha. To be used for encryption I guess.

 

https://www.hampshire.edu/faculty/herbert-j-bernstein

 

O.K. he has some new updates.

 

Yeah so he has a new focus on quantum teleportation. Pretty fascinating.

 

I would say science - like for example when I stayed with my far-right relatives who tried to argue with me about whether global warming was real - I said let's say it is real - even if that is so, the solution will be for techno-fixes that automates everything and micro-manages our reality, etc.

 

Then he said how he agreed - and how they just got a smart meter on their house and that's why the a/c got turned off. haha.

 

But California has 1 year of water left - is losing 18,000 farmers from the doubt (or drought) and provided or provides 25% of the food for the U.S. - and so the ecological crisis is going to hit home very soon.

 

Meanwhile quantum physics wants teleporting of information for deep space exploration. haha.

 

Science can not be separated from technology - and I would say it is overlapping with corporate control, etc.

 

Professor David F. Noble's books are great on this - all his books - he just died a few years ago.

 

But how many have the time to really study all his books. I didn't read his last one but he seemed to pick up on my main idea - the revolution is now! haha.

 

He points how how even this linear focus of time that is apocalyptic is symptomatic of this Western mind-set from out of Zoroastrian philosophy, the complementary opposite of Vedic  Brahmin philosophy. - and it has just intensified as a self-fulfilling prophecy.

 

http://www.notbored.org/cohn.html Norman Cohn pointed that out also - he kicked the bucket in 2007.

 

Obviously we can't go back in time nor would we want to. We can't undo what we have become.

 

Cosmos, Chaos and the World to Come: The Ancient Roots of Apocalyptic Faith (1993, revised edition 2001)

 

But yeah quantum physics is very much about questioning even this linear view of time itself.

 

One of these areas is non-commutative geometry.

 

We want to think that the West is out to "help" the rest of the world "develop" - it's a racist view and often a projection of the results of previous disastrous encounters of the West  causing plagues, slavery, etc.

 

So the "aid" industry is a good example - it's not necessarily to help people because that would mean not getting any more aid!

 

https://books.google.com/books?id=PgSMBgAAQBAJ&pg=PA171&dq=alain+connes+quantum+logic&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Mw0SVbHQNIavggTyi4PIDA&ved=0CDMQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=alain%20connes%20quantum%20logic&f=false

 

So Alain Connes writes on his vision of quantum logic as having multiple voices in the head at the same time - and the analogy he uses is in orchestration, the ability to listen to more than one instrument at the same time. I actually had to train in that for my music studies in high school - I studied orchestration privately and so I can attest to the amazing brain work out by having to transcribe in real time several different music languages - essentially - different clefs.

 

But so his vision is based on quantum computers taking over and again it fits into an essentially "singularity" world view.

 

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/ciencia/ciencia_matrix43.htm

 

I exposed all this back in 2001 - based on my masters thesis - and what I discovered as a unified field theory relying on the pilot wave model of quantum physicist de Broglie.

 

So again this is structural and predictive in science just by understanding the foundation of science is wrong - and so the future of science is inherent to its expansion of logarithmic-based dimensions with the inherent increasing tension and disharmony.

 

We have to realize that ontologically the formless awareness is what remains - beyond even the survival of the human species. As a shamanic training - it is found in other species also - this energy training. In other words science is part of a larger development with the elements of metal and fire taking over as the Solar Dynasty error. Metal being passion - the tantric element with fire.

 

And so Earth will survive but the larger cycle is this cycle of the elements - earth, fire, metal, water and formless awareness.

 

It's not a matter of what is best for humanity since humans are no different than any other species on EArth - except that we are currently dominant and have, thereby, taken the whole Earth with us in this larger cycling of the elements path.

 

So carbon-based life, the earth wood element - it is left-hand based asymmetry - the carbon-based molecules are left-handed asymmetric and shamanic life is right brain dominant.

 

But modern humans are the opposite - left-brain dominant and right-hand dominant.

 

So that is the transformation of metal and fire using water as the pivot.

 

Water being governed by the Moon and so the Moon governs life on earth and unless the dominant species of life on earth helps the moon evolve spiritually then the moon destroys all life on earth and the ecological process starts over again.

 

So instead of wondering what's best for humans - rather we need to realize that ontologically only the formless awareness remains with this eternal energy creation via the cycling of the elements.

 

It's not just that the climate catastrophe is happening from human technology but also that the ocean is being over-fished to the point of extinction for most of the fish in just a few decades - and this is along with desertification and running out of water - the global water crisis is worse than the Peak Oil crisis - and then you have dead zones in the ocean from agricultural nitrate runoff - nuclear radiation from waste and mining, toxic waste from high tech - silicon valley has the highest concentration of superfund sites, on and on. The rate of extinction of species is the fastest in Earth's billions of years of life - going back to the first mass extinction of the Permian about 200 million years ago. But all that is just discussing symptoms whereas the cause is this wrong math - the wrong foundation of measurement that creates inherent disharmony. We don't think of math as a moral issue but if it is based on a lie about infinity then it is definitely a moral issue.

 

So yeah everything that science can cover - tells us that while science has given us seemingly great power - with the huge explosion in human population we have 3 billion people living in poverty - and 2 billion living in extreme poverty, etc. Science can't claim to have really helped to improve the quality of living overall.

 

https://books.google.com/books?id=rtHR8_gK_WwC&pg=PA36&lpg=PA36&dq=elizabeth+marshall+thomas+bushman+music+eland+bull&source=bl&ots=ckxR0arawe&sig=fTNW806QT0mBdwbSlK_WTFZh8TM&hl=en&sa=X&ei=VBISVZbpNsjFggTCkYGYAg&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=elizabeth%20marshall%20thomas%20bushman%20music%20eland%20bull&f=false

 

As Elizabeth Marshall Thomas notes - at least the Bushmen knew better not to put their sewage in their water, thereby polluting it.

Edited March 25, 2015 by Innersoundqigong

[voidisyinyang]

It's funny I was just rereading the new "Origins of Symbolic Culture" essay by anthropologist Chris Knight based on Ian Watts archaeology.

 

But the thing that keeps getting missed is what Elizabeth Marshall Thomas points out in that google link I gave.

 

For example Robin Dunbar argues that language as symbolic thought evolved in order for humans to have ritual trance dances. But that is not what Chris Knight argues - he argues for a Lunar synchronization of menstruation in human females as a sex strike - and from that arose language.

 

But again what Elizabeth Marshall Points out - I quote in my book.

 

It's proven that the same Eland Bull menstruation trance dance music is found in the oldest human cultures - with different languages but the oldest languages.

 

That means that they had the same trance dance music - before human language even fully developed - and so at least 70,000 years ago based on the latest archaeological research.

 

Also they maintained the same trance dancing spiritual healing for 70,000 years!

 

It's mind-boggling as modern humans discuss the destruction of the planet yet ignore the original human culture that is our modern biological origin - a culture completely based on spiritual healing using trance dance songs that have gibberish for their words!

 

haha. Gibberish. I listen to these trance songs all the time in my car commute - I play the same Healing Songs of the Bushmen c.d. over and over again - and no one else can stand it. haha. But energetically you can sense the jing healing of the singing - the females transmit their jing energy and so the music is very healing.

 

So modern humans have been cut off from what is called "direct knowledge" because our thoughts are actually electromagnetic and then the pineal gland transduces that electromagnetic information into the words we hear in our heads as internal thinking. haha.

 

Of course visions are a type of electromagnetic communication - and so as happened with Andrew Zimmern -

 

 

Toward what I believed to be the end of the evening, Xaxe, a great hunter, healer,

and shaman, laid hands on me....I felt the energy, his energy, surge through my

body. He had his hands on me for about twenty-five or thirty seconds, but it felt

like he had only touched me for a split second. Time stood still. I literally had a

short out of body experience. I could see him touching me from just above my

body, almost like I was floating six feet off the ground, watching myself. All of a

sudden I was back in my body observing an image of him thumbing through the book that contained all the pictures and moments in my life. I saw images of my

childhood I hadn't remembered in years, pictures of my mother and me walking

on a beach and shelling, very strong images. At the time, both during his touch

and immediately afterward, I described it as him flipping through the pages of my

life....Later the next morning, I spoke with Xaxe about the trance dance. He told

me he wanted access to me in a way that was not possible through a

translator....Xaxe's curiosity was such a caring, loving gesture....When he

detached from me it felt like someone was unplugging a lamp from a wall socket.

As he let go of me and continued to dance around the fire, I spontaneously burst

into uncontrollable tears....I had been stripped to my emotional core, completely

stunned by what I had witnessed so up close and personal.

 

Andrew Zimmern, The Bizarre Truth: how I walked out the door mouth first – and came back shaking my head (Random House, 2009), 234-5.

 

So that is real high level qigong master healing - and there's no way quantum mechanics can get to that level of sophistication. It's just too complex.

 

[Taomeow]

Since I have spent a lot of time on understanding energy, the mind, and math, and how they relate to one another, I will not go into depth about my disagreement but I will say that the characterization of mind and math is only partly accurate. For science:

 

Well, on the one hand, I don't disagree with the historical characterization of science, its basis, and impact on society and the world---on the other hand, I still don't agree with that manner of presentation. It ends up being overwhelmingly accurate for things taken in a very general sense. But, when loking at the details, even though it catches the general character and widely sweeping effects of science, it tends to be a stereotype for all people who carry some involvement with science. And, in that sense, it tends to be unduly critical to the point of imparting guilt by association to people who are, in fact, aware of the problems and seeking solutions.

 

Further, it does present an ideal end-goal solution (yay for that). But to get there is not addressed in depth. It is this point that bothers me. I would love it if the world were to be converted overnight to a type of tribalistic or at least technologically less-integrated form of society---it is something that I've held as an ideal since before I was put into elementary school. But, looking around at the world, its peoples, and its dependencies--that is not feasible in the short term. We're looking at decades, at least, before something substantial could fructify.

 

And, even so, I don't think science is itself a problem. The greatest problem is the culture of science that tends to treat it like an external source of authority. I see it as an outgrowth of a small set of the mind's capacities; with that in mind (pun not intended), it would mean that the mind could be used to help further science---it need not be built upon technology. As far as I can tell, even among the bushmen, they are not all equal in healing capabilities; 'science' can be used to help people orient their minds and relate to other more remote intelligences in reality (e.g. Jim nance looked into gravitons to possibly help with healing). Science, itself, is a maleable thing that is really an artifact or history; the things you characterize and scrutinize seem to be the sort of communally propagated or projected spirit that these things carry in the mainstream of our culture.

 

I don't know, but when I experience and relate to these things, I can't help but feel that the negative things you describe are not intrinsic to the objects that you are scrutinizing. It really feels like they are somewhat external things that are brought here---kind of like how people can acquire spirit attachments and blockages. You know, science is like a physical body; when some of its constituents do not flow correctly or become blocked, then negative things can enter into it and take over it.---of course, I am considering science as essentially a byproduct of locallized awareness.

 

Anyways...this seems to have gone off-topic from whether or not quantum mechanics was bunk...

 

Edit: these writings were predicated by a consideration of the laws of complementary opposites in taoism (that might clear up some of the vague points).

 

As a taoist, I would go farther and say that science ends when 64 technological inventions have been made.  Science ends, profiteering begins.  Why 64?  The Ta Chuan says so.  It lists all the useful inventions (a gate, a boat, a watch tower, etc.) created by the "holy sages" (scientists of their time) based on observing and contemplating nature.  Anything that heaven makes "simple" and earth makes "easy" can be replicated by the human mind and the human hands.  The "simple" and "easy" steps remain so up to the 64th.  Beyond that, fragmentation becomes unmanageable, and knowledge and inventions split away from what's "simple and easy" and move into the territory of "possible if you exploit someone else, and profitable for a few at the expense of many."  This is the death of science and the birth of the corporation.  

 

The genetic code is highly similar among all organisms and can be expressed in a simple table with 64 entries. 

 

When a science or technology emerges that is not rooted in the capacity of the living body to find one on one matches between its functioning and the antics of this new science or technology, we're dealing with out-of-body sciences, belonging in the realm of ghosts, zombies and demons.  Live sciences do not go against the human body, mind, or spirit.  If a science, or a technology based on it, does this, it is not the science of the DNA-based life.  

 

When taoists accidentally invented gunpowder, they didn't use it for 300 years because they inferred, correctly, that they stumbled upon "the science of the demons."  (Only after Europeans laid their hands on this invention and started using it was the Chinese emperor forced to have his military catch up.)  A prime example of the right way to do things -- if you discover a technology that is too explosive and fragmenting to the human life, do not use it, it is not of, or for, humans.   But our science has overstepped this natural boundary into the zombieland of uncontrollable demonic technologies in such a hurry as though our scientists are being chased by hungry ghosts and/or have turned into same.  Strike the "as though" part. 

[Nikolai1]

This is still the culture of science. I am meaning science qua "knowledge" which is simply an artifact of experience. Yes, it is born of symbolic thought. In a sense, even mythology and the pictograms and writings from visionaries are symbolic. My conception of science is kind of Feyerabendian so I consider everything---from qigong, to theTitanomachy, to the prose edda, and even numerology to be a form of science.

 

While it would be a fine thing for more people to read Feyerabend, spiritual realisation is essentially the realisation that there is no such thing as symbolic thought.  A thought is its own reality, and the only reality.  The thought does not stand as some kind of referent to anything outside of itself.  There is nothing outside of the thought.

 

Now clearly holding to this vision is certainly hard, and the attempt is spiritual practice itself.  Or to put it another way, practice is living with the intense passion that makes this moment the only moment there is.  There is nothing outside of this moment.  The thought symbolises nothing.  The symbol and the symbolised are one and the same thing.

 

To engage in quantum physics is to engage in illusion, from the spiritual perspective.  However much certain quantum theories might resemble certain spiritual teachings, for example on impermanence, or mind only, they are still illusory.  In fact all spiritual teachings are themselves illusory, fingers pointing to the moon. The same goes for the scientific theories that resemble them.

 

Too much time and respect is given to quantum theory.  Seekers who are intelligent enough to disregard Hegelism, or Marxism, or Freudism go weak at the knees at quantum theory.  Maybe its mysterious arcanity confuses them.  But spiritually speaking the theory is useless, harmful and confusing.  There is no possible bridge to realisation unless we see this.  We have to radically transcend the objective reality that physics purports to explain.  We need to see that our explanations themselves are gone in a moment.

 

When we do this, we have tasted directly all the truth that quantum physics might provide us, and at the same time, avoided the pitfall that comes when we think that the theory has any validity.

Edited March 25, 2015 by Nikolai1